patrick.net

Damn you got a dislike already

The truth is anathema to Clinton voters

thunderlips11 says

-the-growing-list-of-big-name-republicans-supporting-hillary-clinton/

This says a lot. The Republican establishment is terrified of Trump winning the election. Even if he just resigns before day 1 it would devastate the GOP. Actually going through with the job would destroy the GOP. The GOP establishment's only exit plan would be to jump ship onto the Democratic Party and let the Republican Party be a losing party for the religious base only. This scenario is very plausible if Hillary Clinton wins the election.

Hillary losing the election would make this scenario much less likely and make the Seventh Party System that we are transitioning towards much better. I've been meaning to write up a thread on this, but haven't had the time.

It's clear though that Hillary Clinton is actually extremely appealing to the Republican establishment no matter what they say to the base. Hillary's policies are essentially identical to George W. Bush's, Bush Sr's, and Reagan's.

THUNDER!!!!

nice thread mate.

Dan8267 says

Hillary losing the election would make this scenario much less likely and make the Seventh Party System that we are transitioning towards much better. I've been meaning to write up a thread on this, but haven't had the time.

Looking forward to this!

Dan8267 says

It's clear though that Hillary Clinton is actually extremely appealing to the Republican establishment no matter what they say to the base. Hillary's policies are essentially identical to George W. Bush's, Bush Sr's, and Reagan's.

Looks like the notorious Paul Wolfowitz, engineer of much Bush Era Policies including the Iraq War, and whose chairmanship of the World Bank was riddled by cronyism including hiring his beau, is saying "I'm With Her!"
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/26/politics/paul-wolfowitz-voting-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

In fact Wolfowitz was the first to suggest to Bush, within a few days of the 9/11 attacks, to invade... Iraq.

landtof says

THUNDER!!!!

nice thread mate.

Thanks!

1. Bush supporters support Clinton.
2. KKK and other racist assholes support Trump.

Since the first one is significant, I guess the second one is too. Clinton = Bush like Trump = KKK. Pick your poison.

thunderlips11 says

They're with her!

Their vision for America is stronger than maintaining party loyalty. I'm with them!

Rew says

Their vision for America is stronger than maintaining party loyalty. I'm with them!

Yes, never mind many of these people were odious to the Democratic Base who pointed (correctly) to their disasterous policies. Now they and the policies they espouse - which Hillary supports (Libya and Syria are evidence of that, as are her Iraq Votes).

Now that they are on "My Team" of "Very Serious People" and not with the "Populist Rabble-Rouser", I'm cool with them!

Here's a graphic for you. It will only work if your screen isn't so mall that it wraps.

This is for national security and diplomacy

Hillary ------------Bush-------------------------------------------------------------------Trump

When Trump is not there, there is a lot of room between Hillary and Bush. Plenty of reason for HRC people to complain about Bush and vice versa.

Now that we have Trump to compare things to, suddenly Bush and HRC supporters would rather anyone but Trump. Now, this is true on many issues. On other issues, like a simple tax plan, it still looks like this.

Hillary----------------------------------------------------Bush -------Trump.

So, there are reasons why some Republicans prefer Trump. Especially Michelle Bachman types. But a lot are so repulsed by some of Trump's stances, that they can overlook the taxes and other philosophies where they'd much prefer Bush or similar.

I do agree that HRC is going to be fairly friendly to corporate and financial industry insiders. Trump would probably be as well, except he'd try to use his position to get some skin from any bankers who decided not to loan him money and get them to play ball with his kids.

thunderlips11 says

Remember all those Bush Followers? They're all in...

That explains why I am screaming at the TV again.

thunderlips11 says

Kagan's wife, Victoria Nuland, engineered the Ukraine Coup

What "coup"? One guy fled, another one has been elected in his place in one-off election (because no VP). Legislature stayed in place through the whole thing. Then a regular election was held for the legislature. Both elections were acknowledged as free and fair by everyone including USA, EU, OSCE, UN and (gasp!) even Russia. Are you saying now that you disagree with Putin himself on this matter? What gives?

YesYNot says

1. Bush supporters support Clinton.

2. KKK and other racist assholes support Trump.

Since the first one is significant, I guess the second one is too. Clinton = Bush like Trump = KKK. Pick your poison.

Excellent point.

Do you know the difference between #1 and #2?

#2 has never been a member of any administration in decades, AFAIK not even former members like Senator Byrd. No members of #2 are being cited by the Media as "Very Serious People" whose opinions need to be considered like noted pundits like Brooks and Thomas Friedman (who cautioned Hillary not to go to far left too beat Bernie, or she'd lose the "Web People") . #2 has no power and never will again. #1 was already in power and their advice lead to disaster after disaster. The fact that #1 thinks Hillary is closer to their erroneous policy ideas is a powerful reason not to vote for Her.

Nobody from the Klan has been asked to be a member of a Trump Cabinet.

Jeff Bezo's Blog and Carlos Slim's Grey Lady don't get it, because they haven't spoken regularly to normal people for many decades, if ever. Reporters are no longer kids from the street who start working the city council meetings, then the police beat, then city politics, and finally DC politics. They are born into the top 1% and directly hired to do national news after obtaining their 'meh average' Brown or Georgetown Journalist/Communication Degrees.

Straw Man says

Legislature stayed in place through the whole thing.

Bwahahaha. Including this picturesque moment that didn't make it into the Western Press, despite Reuters taking pictures?

Totally not intimidating to have Nazis with bats and knives and pistols in Parliament.

Hmmm, where have I seen that Runic Symbol before? Oh, yeah. It's the emblem of the 2nd SS "Das Reich" Division.

Those in denial that the wulfangel is a Nazi symbol need only look at this picture of a speaker at a Greek Golden Dawn rally.

thunderlips11 says

Now that they are on "My Team" of "Very Serious People" and not with the "Populist Rabble-Rouser", I'm cool with them!

Wrong.

YesYNot says

But a lot are so repulsed by some of Trump's stances, that they can overlook the taxes and other philosophies where they'd much prefer Bush or similar.

Correct.

And yes, there will be no foreign policy shift under HRC.

Victoria Nuland and Ambassador to Ukraine discuss who will be next leadership of Ukraine.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video

Guess who became the next President and Prime Minister?

What a coinky dink!

"We don't interfere in other country's democratic processes"

Imagine the shreiking that CNN, MSNBC, NYT, etc. would do if Lavrov handed out cookies to Black Lives Matter or at Trump Rallies. "Unprecedented interference!"

YesYNot says

Hillary ------------Bush-------------------------------------------------------------------Trump

That's with rent seekers on the left.

In terms of Corpratism, Endless Warfare, and Mass Immigration, it's more like.

Trump----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hillary-Bush

Dan8267 says

The Republican establishment is terrified of Trump winning the election. Even if he just resigns before day 1 it would devastate the GOP. Actually going through with the job would destroy the GOP. The GOP establishment's only exit plan would be to jump ship onto the Democratic Party and let the Republican Party be a losing party for the religious base only. This scenario is very plausible if Hillary Clinton wins the election.

The problem for republicans is assuming Trump loses, he is not going away.
The guy is still there. His ideas are still there. His voters are still there.

They may even endup with congressmen aligned with Trump.

It's like a globalist nightmare from which they can't awake.

Heraclitusstudent says

The problem for republicans is ...

Not a problem for Republicans. That's a problem for America (ie. all of us)! Trump will get 60+ million people to vote for him. The nation has to address the real root cause of the scapegoat hate here: economic inequality, decline of opportunity, sagging education.

thunderlips11 says

In terms of Corpratism, Endless Warfare, and Mass Immigration, it's more like.

Trump----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hillary-Bush

Trump is no hawk, but I sure don't see him as an answer to deeper relations with foreign powers and avoiding conflict. Do you? He also is going to 'bomb their families' remember?

Rew says

The nation has to address the real root cause of the scapegoat hate here: economic inequality, decline of opportunity, sagging education.

... free trade, immigration,...

Rew says

I sure don't see him as an answer to deeper relations with foreign powers and avoiding conflict. Do you?

Let me just say I value modesty, dignity, truth and knowledge. People like me don't like people like Trump.
Unfortunately we are in a system that has been hijacked by corporations, rent seekers/globalists.
So we are left to choose between the 2.

Is Trump to the right or the left of Hillary? You have some Hillary folks who say he's way to the left of Hillary and others who say he's way to the right of Hillary. Which is it? Or is it a circle? Well, we do know he was to the south of Hillary with the floods....

Ironman says

From what I see, it's not a Left/Right designation for him. It's more about "issues", sometimes he leans "left" and sometimes he leans "right". He seems to be more about what's good for AMERICANS and not a political party.

I just find it funny. Some say, "he's so to the left of Hillary" he's the opposite of what republicans should want.... Then others say "he's so to the right of Hillary," all of you republicans are racist fascists....

Rew says

That's a problem for America (ie. all of us)!

BULLSHIT. that's the only fucking argument lefties ever try - "the greater good" as if you fucking morons actually have a clue what's best for everyone.

Heraclitusstudent says

Unfortunately we are in a system that has been hijacked by corporations, rent seekers/globalists.

Citizens united, money is speech. We will have to crowd fund our way out of it, and it won't be easy considering how little of it the common man has compared to just one of the 1-5%ers or a PAC.

Trump is running on nothing which says he is above monied influence, but his mouth. That is not his campaign. He has taken NO STANCE on campaign finance reform. Make America Great Again PAC. "I take the money?" ... "No?" ... oh yes, yes you do. Not only that, you return political donations back into private returns in your businesses Mr. Trump. His finance machine is essentially outsourced to the RNC fund raising apparatus (kind of like how Trump Stakes, Vodka, etc. are other peoples product re-branded.).

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/20/1472120/-Hypocrisy-in-a-Hat-Why-Donald-Trump-Won-t-Take-a-Stand-on-Campaign-Finance-Reform

Would you enter into a business deal with Trump? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Heraclitusstudent says

... free trade, immigration,...

Barriers to trade = strong tension points between nations
Immigration = you deport people to other countries, making them deal with a new humanitarian issue. Tensions.

Additionally, these are devastating economic losses to incur, regardless of if you do believe they lead to longer term gains. The patient may not survive the treatment. A massive increase in government jobs with ICE, along with an unknown upgrade on border security. Hint : these things do not lead to the production and sale of anything. If anything, they remove customers with money from the economy.

What you really want to ensure is that Americans have a living wage, not hotel service, meat packing, and migrant farm jobs. Respectfully, the solution Trump has isn't going to deliver, and what it very likely will do is lead toward economic hardship and war (I'm not talking housing bust and ant-terrorist action here, I'm talking major economic strife and nation states with opposing armies fighting).

landtof says

BULLSHIT. that's the only fucking argument lefties ever try - "the greater good" as if you fucking morons actually have a clue what's best for everyone.

Oh, but you do?

Trump has been talking a big talk about the merit required to immigrate. Let's amp it up and take it further. Merit to stay: citizens required to pass the citizenship test and undergo 'extreme vetting' for compatible belief. Sure, we will lose lower educated and low English language proficiency people that really do believe in American values. But we would cure ourselves of much of the right wing. Radicals wouldn't survive it. I'd happily have a few questions to remove the grosser perversions of SJW/Feminism/and BLM too. Bring it!

turtledove says

I just find it funny. Some say, "he's so to the left of Hillary" he's the opposite of what republicans should want....

He hasn't voted enough, has flipped key wedge positions, and hasn't expressed enough clearly to really say for sure say. Heavy authoritarian and slightly left of typical Repub is how is measured right now. I think, like many, he is more left on some positions than people know.

This is close-ish ...

Rew says

He has taken NO STANCE on campaign finance reform. Make America Great Again PAC. "I take the money?" ... "No?" ... oh yes, yes you do.

THAT'S A LIBERAL LIE. GLORIOUS FUHRER WOULD NEVER TAKE CITIZEN'S UNITED MONEY. STOP LYING!!

Rew says

Trump is no hawk, but I sure don't see him as an answer to deeper relations with foreign powers and avoiding conflict.

Are "deeper relations" completely necessary, particularly with Middle East and Pakistan?

Rew says

citizens required to pass the citizenship test

You actually think that someone out could come up with a test that could vet out Islamic extremists?

Rew says

undergo 'extreme vetting' for compatible belief

America is home to lot of beliefs many of which are not in agreement but still able to coexist.

Those who support sharia laws simply can't. Proof? Every other place Islamic immigration has occurred en masse, like Europe. Still waiting for you to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

Why should born citizens be required to "take an exam" in the spirit of being fair to Muslims?

See the Dalai Lama? That's were I test on the political compass.

(the beauty of Georgism is that it gives me an overall framework of philosophical and pragmatic support for being a left-libertarian aka geolibertarian)

Rew says

Merit to stay: citizens required to pass the citizenship test and undergo 'extreme vetting' for compatible belie

You're actually making his argument that leftists know what's best for other people. Good job

as if you fucking morons actually have a clue what's best for everyone.

What's progressivism ever done for us?

Oh, how about WEEKENDS for a start.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/progressive-platform-of-1912/

Rew says

Merit to stay: citizens required to pass the citizenship test and undergo 'extreme vetting' for compatible belief.

You never explained why Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries couldn't take on more refugees once the US meets their quota.

Instead you shifted to a "merit to stay" such that people who have been here for generations have to take an exam to determine right to stay in the US just to be fair to Muslim outsiders, whose inability to assimilate is on full display across the world

MMR says

that leftists know what's best for other people.

All government is coercion yes. It wouldn't be government otherwise.

The left/right divide is the current framing, but it can also be framed as more change or rolling back what changes we've accomplished these past 100+ years of liberalism.

I vote for more, not the rollbacks the conservatives want.

Conservatives of course find nothing much to like with all this change. That's what makes them conservative.

Another attribute of conservativism is being wrong all the time on everything, other than the odd stopped-clock occurrences

Rew says

At this point any chart a Liberal can produce that shows people on the polar oposite of the spectrum, the more people will vote for Trump.

Bellingham Bill says

government is coercion yes. It wouldn't be government otherwise

First, why are you quoting me; someone else said that.

Secondly, are you government?

Bellingham Bill says

All government is coercion yes. It wouldn't be government otherwise.

So you support developing a mandatory test for born citizens to determine their right to stay in an effort to be fair to Muslims who might want to emigrate to this country. Please comment on the topic.

Muslims have proven their capacity to assimilate in Europe. What do you have to say about that? Won't be holding my breath waiting for a response.

Some situations require a progressive approach and some require a more conservative approach.

That Democratic Party shill Bill Maher is as anti-Muslim as it gets. Is he suddenly a conservative now?

Bellingham Bill says

What's progressivism ever done for us?

Oh, how about WEEKENDS for a start.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/progressive-platform-of-1912/

oh really? i'm sure WEEKENDS had nothing to do with religion over the course of history. check. also, the progressive era does not equal the modern day bleeding heart liberal crowd.

i can't wait for you to post a really irrelevant FRED graph as a response.

However many Muslim immigrants we take, it's going to be so low that it's a drop in the bucket. Whether or not Saudi Arabia takes people doesn't have much to do with it. It's basically just us deciding how much we want to do to help solve a humanitarian crisis that we are helping to perpetuate, and how much we want to say fuck you, not our problem.

I have no problem moving them into your neighborhood....go for it.

YesYNot says

It's basically just us deciding how much we want to do to help solve a humanitarian crisis that we are helping to perpetuate, and how much we want to say fuck you, not our problem.