patrick.net

That's because he had some Algerians waiting to kidnap you and harvest your organs outside the office. The Algerians were on a two hour cigarette break, so you got lucky.

But socialism is bad because, because, um, Jesus!

Socialism is good when capitalism cannot do the job.

Heraclitusstudent says

1st person experience:

- 1 doctor visit: 23 euros (This is a private doctor office. 1 day wait time to get an appointment. He did a test to diagnose an bacterial infection (strep throat) vs virus, with possible complications in lungs. Asked for an xray.)

- 1 chest xray: 25 euros (took the appointment on the evening for the next morning in this radiology office. Again a private service. The assistant took the xray. The radiologists looked at digital image in front of me, asked me a few questions, saw no complication, was done in 5 minutes. )

- Drugs: 3 drugs (antibiotic course, a cough syrup, and probiotic): 31 euros.

This is the real FULL cost, without insurance. Not out of pockets expenses.

It's just a copay out here. I just got an MRI done on my knee, and my part came to $957. :(

Ironman says

Thanks for the link and data to that story...

Oh, wait...

This is the link, moron.
You want a copy of the receipts?

Heraclitusstudent says

1 doctor visit: 23 euros (This is a private doctor office.

But most of the French (and other socialist countries) the general public can't afford a private doctor. How long would the wait have been if you'd just been one of the masses?

mmmarvel says

But most of the French (and other socialist countries) the general public can't afford a private doctor. How long would the wait have been if you'd just been one of the masses?

Well, the general French public can surely afford it because they get reimbursed for the 23 euros expense by the government run single-payer insurance.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is the real FULL cost, without insurance.

No it's not real FULL cost. You forgot this:

"...The general social contribution (CSG) is payable by individuals living in France and who benefit from the compulsory health insurance....Unlike the social contributions that give those who pay a right to benefit from them, the CSG, is levied without direct compensation (like any other tax). The CSG has a very broad base as it applies in principle to earnings and income from wealth. The CSG is composed of three separate contributions. Incomes from work are taxed at 7.5%. The rate applied to income from investments is 8.2%..."

I had a similar experience in the Netherlands when we were there for the summer and my son needed to get some stitches out.

Cost something like $20 or $40, can't remember exactly, but it was shockingly low.

Everybody's got a point here. This system of mandatory deductions works well because it guarantees constant funding as opposed to Obamacare where people can omit paying until they need it. Plus, regular doctors are just upper middle class in Europe, in the US they are usually upper class. We could bring prices down here quite a bit if prices would be required to be posted upfront and if insurances would give out vouchers to patients for a certain dollar amount or reimburse a fixed amount the patients can bank on and then shop around. You can get diagnostic procedures a couple miles away for half the price with better equipment/resolution, but most don't know about that and just go to whomever the MD cooperates/colludes with. And if you cut out the insurance you can negotiate cash prices down to 10% of the original price in the most extreme cases.

Strategist says

It's just a copay out here. I just got an MRI done on my knee, and my part came to $957. :(

Unless your copay was not a copay but a deductible (not met yet) for the full amount of the MRI, you have been jibbed. Even with zero insurance pay a regular MRI in CA does not cost more than $900. That is insane. Hope you got extra extra resolution with that ;)

Straw Man says

No it's not real FULL cost. You forgot this:

No I didn't. You don't understand.
I didn't live in France. In didn't pay any of the taxes.
These taxes would finance the insurance that would reimburse French people after a doctor visit.
I specifically told all these people that I don't have the French insurance and therefore they need to charge me directly the full cost.
This is what they charged me.

mell says

regular doctors are just upper middle class in Europe

If this doctor does 2 visits an hour which he would easily, this means he can pull a gross income of 92000 working just 8h a day, which puts him easily in the French upper class.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is what they charged me.

The 23 euro rate is the state set rate per visit charged by all gp's. If you are resident or citizen you get 70% back. Major and long term illness gets 100% back. Hospital care you get 80% back. People can buy private insurance to cover the 30% doctor and 20% hospital not reimbursed if they want.

Ironman says

Straw Man says

The CSG is composed of three separate contributions. Incomes from work are taxed at 7.5%.

Plus, the employer pays a big chunk:

The system is funded partially by obligatory contributions into the state health system (Sécurité Sociale), which are usually deducted from your salary. As at 2014, employees paid 7.5 percent and employers paid 13.10 percent of the salary towards health costs.

http://www.expatica.com/fr/healthcare/A-guide-to-healthcare-in-France_101166.html

Plus, every working family member pays that 7.5% from their salary.

Sécurité Sociale isn't just the health care system. It's health care, drugs, pensions (social security in the US), disability, workmans comp, death benefits, welfare, birth/childcare, and unemployment. http://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_index.html The health care part of Sécurité Sociale is Caisse Primaire d'Assurance Maladie.

All that for 7.5%? Actually there is another .5% expatica missed. That's still a pretty good deal considering just social security and part of medicare alone is 7.65% for every working family member in the good old USA.

Sounds like you received the "invasion of Normandy" dividend...

Heraclitusstudent says

I specifically told all these people that I don't have the French insurance and therefore they need to charge me directly the full cost.

This is what they charged me.

Strategist says

I just got an MRI done on my knee, and my part came to $957. :(

You must have gotten this at the hospital. Most outpatient MRIs are less than $500 total. The best place I used last year was $217 (Anthem negotiated rate) for a 3 Tesla magnet. I was done in less than 20 minutes including paper work.

mell says

Strategist says

It's just a copay out here. I just got an MRI done on my knee, and my part came to $957. :(

Unless your copay was not a copay but a deductible (not met yet) for the full amount of the MRI, you have been jibbed. Even with zero insurance pay a regular MRI in CA does not cost more than $900. That is insane. Hope you got extra extra resolution with that ;)

Yes, deductible plus 20% co pay. The total cost of the MRI was around $2,700. What a rip off.

tr6 says

Strategist says

I just got an MRI done on my knee, and my part came to $957. :(

You must have gotten this at the hospital. Most outpatient MRIs are less than $500 total. The best place I used last year was $217 (Anthem negotiated rate) for a 3 Tesla magnet. I was done in less than 20 minutes including paper work.

Yes, it was at the hospital. I thought hospitals were the cheapest. :(

Is it now cheaper to fly to Europe for routine medical care?

Did you thank the French taxpayers for subsidizing your medical care?

As I explained above, French taxpayers did no subsidized my medical care.

bob2356 says

All that for 7.5%? A

This is the percentage of SS that employee pays. Employer pays about another 30%. And this only pays pensions

For a specialist, you would pay more than 24 eruos in Europe. Typically ~50 euros. But, on the bright side, it can be black money

Heraclitusstudent says

Asked for an xray.

If you asked for the X-ray, then may I ask why? Also, did you keep a copy of it?

rando says

to get some stitches out...Cost something like $20 or $40, can't remember exactly, but it was shockingly low.

That's in line with what Medicare pays here: $30 for a nurse or P.A., or $60 for an M.D.

The corporate American insurance model operates like racketeering. To be in an insurance company's network and thus get access to its customers, doctors agree to the insurance company's negotiated fee structure for its customers, and to charge everyone else at least triple. You pay protection money, called a "premium", over and above the cost of the procedure, which is your "co-payment." (If your insurance policy has a deductible, then you suffer the full scam price until you have paid the deductible, and then you start paying the real price.) Paying the insurance premium "protects" you from the added markup the insurance company negotiates with the doctor.

curious2 says

If you asked for the X-ray, then may I ask why?

The doctor asked for it.

Heraclitusstudent says

curious2 says

If you asked for the X-ray, then may I ask why?

The doctor asked for it.

Thanks for clarifying. I do suggest always getting a copy anyway. I feel dismayed that most Americans keep better maintenance records on their cars than on their own bodies. You can replace your car. You can't yet replace yourself. If you're going to endure ionizing radiation for the sole purpose of making a digital image, then the least you can do for yourself is to keep a copy of it.

The population of France vs US is 66 million versus over 300 million. The larger a socialist government system is, the more inefficient and costly. Also, I'd be interested to know if they have the same restrictions on licensed doctors that create an artificial supply and demand shortage, which calculates into the higher cost, and longer wait times here.

NuttBoxer says

The population of France vs US is 66 million versus over 300 million. The larger a socialist government system is, the more inefficient and costly.

My point with this thread was not to defend socialism but to provide a real world example of real costs that can be used as a reference in judging other systems.

Note that these offices were all private practices, not government employees. Where "socialism" comes in is that their prices are regulated by the government. However the wait time indicates there are no shortages, and therefore these prices are reasonable reflections of the actual costs and decent salaries of these people. So the low cost comes not from socialism but from the simplicity and efficiency of the way the system is setup. Also this was an individual doctor in his individual practice. I see absolutely no sign it would be more or less costly to reproduce this office a 1000, 1,000,000, or 10,000,000 times for that matter.

An even more basic question is: does it make sense to wonder if "socialism" would be a bit more inefficient in your country when anyway the costs of your own system is already 1 order of magnitude larger? What you pay in the US is simply absurdly bloated. To the point where even healthcare professionals lose the sense of how bloated it is. They just charge exactly whatever they want or feel like. There is no limit, or real competition to speak of (your customers won't shop around or leave and their lives are on the line).

ja says

bob2356 says

All that for 7.5%? A

This is the percentage of SS that employee pays. Employer pays about another 30%. And this only pays pensions

and what the employer pays makes what difference to the employee? Sorry but it doesn't only pay pensions. What the french call social security is the entire system including health care. Try reading the link. Cleiss is a great resource. The total employee tax rate for all programs is higher than 7.5%, closer to 16%, but the calculations depend on your situation. Calculating anything to do with government in France is always very complicated.

I paid a flat 33% in income taxes over 70k the last time I was overseas which included health care, very low college tuition, and old age pension. In the US I am well into the 33% federal tax bracket, plus 7.65% fica, plus 7% state, plus high property taxes, plus health care, plus outrageous US college tuition if I sent the kids to US colleges (zero chance of that). Since as a US citizen overseas you have to do 2 sets of taxes every year comparing federal tax bills between countries is very simple. Overall tax burden in the US can easily be higher than many of the "socialist" countries depending on your situation. The difference is many other countries have a single national tax where in the US the tax burden is split up many different ways in so many different places it's hard to figure what you are truly paying. Never mind paying for health care out of pocket.

Heraclitusstudent says

My point with this thread was not to defend socialism but to provide a real world example of real costs that can be used as a reference in judging other systems.

Note that these offices were all private practices, not government employees. Where "socialism" comes in is that their prices are regulated by the government.

When you list the benefits of s socialist system, you are promoting it. And a doctor can call themselves whatever they want, but if they receive payment from a government program, they are government doctors.

And our system is absolutely socialist as well, and has been so well before Obamacare. When the licensing boards artificially choke supply, by curtailing the number of qualified physicians that can practice, that's not a free market system. When drug companies buy support from the US government through regulation, pushing their pills as the only viable option, that's socialism.

I'd wager the difference in your France experience actually has to do with them being less socialist than we are. I.E. less regulation/manipulation of the system. Also, outside of the US, naturopathic/preventative care is much more widely accepted, creating cheaper avenues of care, and less sick people. ALSO, we have the cheapest "food" in the world, but the highest number of obese/diabetic/cancer cases. The cancer is more prevalent thanks to chemicals that are outlawed in places like France, being acceptable here.

So healthcare system that is highly manipulated to favor the mega-corps, limit supply to good doctors and good preventative treatment, larger population, low bar for what is considered food, leads to an over-burdened, over-medicated, malnourished, sick population. But you need to go to France to understand why we're totally fucked!?

NuttBoxer says

When you list the benefits of s socialist system, you are promoting it.

No I am not, I'm just making an empirical statement.

NuttBoxer says

And a doctor can call themselves whatever they want, but if they receive payment from a government program, they are government doctors.

No they aren't. No more than doctors in the US work for insurances. The insurance is socialized, not these (particular) doctors.
For example: government employees typically get paid pretty much regardless of what work they do and how they do it. Not these doctors. What they earn is proportional to the time they put in. Also they do have their individual reputations on the line. Customers are free to go to an other doctor. See the difference?

NuttBoxer says

our system is absolutely socialist as well

First, you have to understand that having capitalism without competition means unlimited prices. If you don't have don't competition, and you provide a service on which people lives depend, then prices are whatever people feel they want to charge. No one in the US healthcare system has ANY incentive to cut prices or simply processes. It's as simple as that. If you don't shop around on your way to the hospital, you can never claim that capitalism is going to do the job.

NuttBoxer says

The larger a socialist government system is, the more inefficient and costly.

I'd say what makes a system costly and inefficient is adding a muddle man and a bloated administration associated with it.

How can moving to a single payer, non- profit system make it more costly and inefficient??? You have to be a complete moron to believe it.

FP says

I'd say what makes a system costly and inefficient is adding a muddle man and a bloated administration associated with it.

You mean like a president and a central government :)

Heraclitusstudent says

No they aren't. No more than doctors in the US work for insurances.

You mean like calling the insurance company a bazillion times because they still haven't paid your claim? My chiropractor actually dropped support for all insurance for this reason.

Heraclitusstudent says

Not these doctors.

Do they get paid by the government or not?

Heraclitusstudent says

First, you have to understand that having capitalism without competition means unlimited prices.

I don't know what capitalism is supposed to mean, and doubt you do either. I know that a cornerstone of free market is competition, and the opposite of free market is socialism. Therefore...

Ironman says

bob2356 says

I paid a flat 33% in income taxes

bob2356 says

well into the 33% federal tax bracket

You pay taxes on income????

That's so sad...

Is being an idiot 24/7 hard work for you or is it something you have a natural talent for?

NuttBoxer says

Heraclitusstudent says

Not these doctors.

Do they get paid by the government or not?

No. People pay doctors and then get reimbursed by the health care system for 70% of the cost of the visit. The doctor gives you a a signed "feuille de soins" (a statement of the treatment carried out) that needs to be sent in to be reimbursed. Since 2008 the Carte Vitale system is used for reimbursement for residents. You pay the doctor, the doctor swipes your card, and you get reimbursed without having to send paperwork in. Non residents but EU members have to use the EHIC (European Health Insurance Card) card and submit feuille de soins for reimbursement.

Try reading some of the links I posted, they explain the system pretty well.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

being an idiot

Thanks for confirming to me exactly what you are by paying that level of taxes?? Congratulations, you just entered the delusional world that Dan lives in.

Want to translate this gibberish of whatever it is you are trying to say into some form of at least vaguely recognizable english? Sorry you have spent your life in the 10% tax bracket. Better luck in the next lifetime.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

Sorry you have spent your life in the 10% tax bracket.

Sadly, that's the side effect of having a cash income.... It's really horrible...

Now if I could only hide the income from the retirement accounts...

Spoken like a true libertarian crybaby. I want my government services, I want them now, and I want someone else to pay for it. Trump is your wet dream boy for sure. He's sucked more government tit than anyone while dodging taxes.

It's good you have the internet to try to convince the terminally gullible like tenpoundass that your absurd fantasy of actually making some kind of worthwhile income is true. Keep on dreaming and buying lotto tickets. People like you call them investments.

bob2356 says

No. People pay doctors and then get reimbursed by the health care system for 70% of the cost of the visit.

Then I have to ask. If the doctors are only making what patients pay them, WHAT THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE GIVING THEIR MONEY TO THE GOVERNMENT FOR!!?? So the government can give them a percentage of it back!?

Fuck the program, I'll pay full cost for my healthcare at those rates, and keep the extra 30% thank you very much.