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Trump and Carrier reach deal to keep 1000 jobs in US

By someone else following x   2016 Nov 29, 6:54pm 12,880 views   92 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/308009-report-trump-team-reaches-deal-to-keep-1000-carrier-jobs-in-us

The Donald Trump team and Carrier have reached an agreement to keep about 1,000 manufacturing jobs in Indiana, fulfilling one of Trump's major campaign promises.

Carrier confirmed the news, first reported by the New York Times, on Twitter.

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53   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 3:25pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@zzyzzx 's chart about is not good. It's much better when only the very well off and above can hire landscapers, each lunch out 5x a week, etc. Growing numbers of low end service jobs, whether that's Home Health Aides, Mowing Services, and Waiters is a bad thing. Especially if what came before was value added manufacturing.

anonymous says

While I was watching the televised tour of the Carrier plant during the Trump visit, because of some background in Continuous Improvement I was temporarily more focused visually on what else and what waste could be eliminated and just a cursory view of the assembly line suggested more can de done. C.I. is a double edged sword - more efficient and eliminating waste does not bode well for increased employment unless consumer demand prompts it.

There's an oppositional relationship between efficiency and robustness, also. Witness the lumber supply with Just In Time inventory vs. Old Style Warehouses during a hurricane or other natural disaster.

But that's an aside. Most of the factories in China and Vietnam are also producing in 60s mode, with people hunched over workstations with a soldering iron in one hand and a lamp. There's a mistaken perception that Chinese electronics factories are ultra modern and mostly robotic. They aren't. Also, we have a distinct advantage over China, in that our average $/KwH is substantially cheaper.

55   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 3:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hey, what ever happened to 100,000s of net new Financial Adviser jobs that was supposed be created over the past decade?

Hehehehehehehe, or was that nursing home nursing. Or Programming. Or California licensed real estate salesperson.

Maybe they're all filled by H1-Bs, hahahahaha.

56   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 2, 3:42pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Thunderlips is Tovbot2 says

There aren't enough GOOD PAYING service jobs to replace all the lost manufacturing jobs from the US and never will be. They are replaced with shitty, low pay, no advancement, no benefit warehouse and retail jobs. Not good. Also the loss of good paying manufacturing jobs means the retail sector no longer has to compete with them for employees, so they can drop their wages and benefits even lower.

Its a continuous downward spiral with Libbys/Leftys getting caught in the spiral more and more. Outsourcing has lead to a lack of Manufacturing jobs, and a surplus of people forced to get involved in waitering, service industry.

Even the wealthy will see massive erosion until we all get so broke that this no one left to tax, no one left to pay for lush government job perks.

Clinton and Obama completely failed the US, completely jettisoned manufacturing at the same time eroding the value of hard work, increasing the desire for entitlements, and developing a dependant liberal base that cant believe why they did not take Penn, Wis, Ohio, Mi.

Then the Libbys say the country is so divided!!! But they dont realize their liberal heroes divided it, and empoverished the middle class, with continual outsourcing seen by the Elite as inevitable.

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their mother and fathers jobs were lost to NAFTA.

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their parents got into housing trouble with CRA.

Myopic Liberals are a big threat to the US, but many of them decided to stop drinking the coolaid.

57   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 3:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Wow, look at the fastest growing professions thanks to Neoliberalism and Deindustrialization. PCA and HHAs - aka Asswiper and Shower Supporter, Food Service, Fast Food,, Nursing Assistants (Puke Bag Holder), Medical Assistants (take your blood pressure and weight and fill out med questionaires, a job a HS dropout could do), Medical Secretaries (office clerk dealing with 20 different insurance programs, only HS ed necessary).

If there's a shortage of all these things, how come the only way to get the unskilled wages up is to raise the minimum wage? Maybe we should freeze immigration until there's upwards pressure on bottom 35% wages.

I love when people act like Pharmacist Assistants or Medical Secretaries or even HHAs require like advanced vocational training outside from learning on the job. Or demand that front-line food service supervisors (ie "The Lunch Lady" or the "Assistant Manager" at Flair Hamburgers) need college degrees.

58   Strategist   ignore (2)   2016 Dec 2, 3:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

zzyzzx is deplorable says

More and more people are enjoying dinner in restaurants. We must have money.

59   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 3:53pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

There is a shortage of truck drivers, warehouse workers, home health/nursing home - you name it. A lot them come with benefits - maybe not the best - but still benefits.

Truck Drivers yes - but the government and multinationals are working hard to put Mexican drivers on US roads to ruin Longshoremen, Teamsters, and Indies to Crush wages. They've been talking about Alcupoco into a major Deep Water port to compete with Long Beach on the West Coast. Think of all those safe, rigorously inspected Mexican Trucks with their deep tire treads and perfectly functioning brake pads driving in the next lane to your wife or teenage daughter down the highway.

But warehouse workers don't make shit, there is no advancement, and the benefits are laughable, same with Home Health Aides. The latter is literally at the bottom of the pile.

We need to stop the excuses, it simply isn't the case that laid off steel workers do just as good or even almost as good at the Walmart Distribution Center as they did at Bethlehem Steel. When you go from $18 + Benefits to $9 + No Benefits your standard of living is cut in half. Don't forget a lot of Wally World type employers charge big league for medical insurance, or offer contribution plans to people who literally have no disposable income after the basics are paid for.

Think of how ludicrous it is to offer company sponsored 401ks with a little matching to people who make $10/hr.

We have to stop making excuses for the post 1990 system of neoliberalism that has not only totally failed to deliver on promises of prosperity, but has actually been absolutely retrograde for about 40% of the working population - just to make the already rich richer and the already comfortable a third investment housing unit.

60   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 4:05pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Neoliberalism Fails.

During this time, we had microcomputers, the fax machine became commonplace, beepers and then cell phones and then smartphones became common, computer skills became basic skill sets, percentages of post HS educational attainment increased, and of course the internet, etc etc etc.

Where's the efficiency/productivity gains for the bottom 50%? Warehouse workers don't use devices? Cafeteria Supervisors don't check in using cell phones with workers? Answer: redistributed to banksters on the coast.

61   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 4:06pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

Companies buying dumped steel and producing things with it. Sounds good as long as it doesn't cost me as much as what I used to pay.

Except for all the thousands of people who now make half of what they used to, so you could shave off a few percentage points.

That's the problem with neoliberalism. We're helping the top 5% get 7% ROI instead of 5% ROI, at the cost of adding millions of households to bone-grinding poverty with no future.

The formerly used "Let them eat learn to code" is laughable, because it assumes there are hundreds of thousands of technology, accounting, registered nursing, etc. jobs just mysteriously going unfilled.

If there really were all those unfilled jobs, they'd be filling them with people with fewer formal credentials and investing in on the job training.

Basic Computer Skills are all that is necessary to be a loan officer or accounts supervisor at a bank branch. Because of the oversupply of educated people, employers are spoiled lazy and now can only hire people with degrees for jobs that only required a HS Diploma (with experience on the job, and company-provided training courses translating into promotions) in the past. It's getting so bad they want Supervisors of Retail Stores who make a buck more than a line employee to have 2+ years of college.

The market is deliberately glutted of labor via the immigration policy.

62   Strategist   ignore (2)   2016 Dec 2, 4:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Thunderlips is Tovbot2 says

Love the chart, but it's a little misleading. Young people will be in the bottom, because they are just starting out.

63   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 2, 4:12pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Methinks that the liberals have been tricked. Liberal Lawyer have argued for NAFTA, against Perot who had a multi-billion $$ company.

Gee who do you think could predict the loss of middle class jobs due to NAFTA with more accuracy? Lawyers who have massive political experience and make money off outsourcing or a multiple Entrepeneur who created multi billion $$ firms?

DEMS you have been sold a bill of goods, and you believed it!

64   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 4:14pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

Hope the Dementia isn't getting too bad for you. :) - holding my own and you ? This figure has to have the cost of benefits rolled in - the other sources have consistently cited $23 and change as the higher end wage.

You think Walmart Distro workers have better benefits than a unionized Steelworker did? You've seen what places like Wally World offer, right? You realize Walmart actively assists employees in applying for Medicare, HUD, and food stamps, yes? As do many Nursing Homes and Assisted Living and HHA companies?

You think Bethlehem Steel or Ford routinely had to sign up their own workers for government assistance?

The facts are in: Compared to the manufacturing era, life for the median American was far, far better than Today. We have enough information to declare Neoliberalism a failure. Time to go back to what is proven to work.

The government and corporations and Wall St. have co-opted the professional classes to screw over America, deliberately via government policy. This policy can be reversed. It's not "natural" or "unavoidable global trends". The US created and sustained the Trend.

65   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 2, 4:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

TisT2 - my only point I would disagree on with the majority of your comments this evening is if this is the result of "neoliberalism" - I want to ponder that one for awhile.

The definition of neoliberalism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
https://www.britannica.com/topic/neoliberalism
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

We use "liberal" much more differently than the rest of the world here in the States.

Of course neoliberalism is subject to corruption: The same banks that advocate neoliberalism (Outsourcing, no industrial aid, no capital financing for manufacturers) will be first in line with their hats out for taxpayer money when THEY get into trouble - and it'll be in amounts that are absolutely outrageous compared to the modest supports/policies asked by manufacturing industry. When healthy again due to government bailouts, they'll go right back to advocating neoliberalism.

One great amendment to the Constitution: Government can only sell shares of nationalized companies after the stock has returned to 10% of it's record price.

anonymous says

he registered nurse thing is real and will intensify soon enough as the population ages

It won't really. What's the number one place of employment for all nurses? Hint: Not Hospitals, but it has 'nursing' in its name. Most nurses who work there don't need to be RNs, in fact the owners wouldn't want to pay for all that.

The average life expectancy for boomers would be somewhere in the 70s. There might be a demand for Practical or Licensed Nurses, but in 10-20 years after demand increased there would be one hell of a nursing recession: Far fewer Gen Xers than boomers.

66   bob2356   ignore (3)   2016 Dec 4, 5:22am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Entitlemented says

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their mother and fathers jobs were lost to NAFTA.

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their parents got into housing trouble with CRA.

Myopic Liberals are a big threat to the US, but many of them decided to stop drinking the coolaid.

Reality doesn't enter into your world very often does it? NAFTA was created by George W Bush, the smiling man between Canadian PM Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. BTW they are signing NAFTA in the picture. The agreement was ratified after clinton was elected by a wide republican majority. Clinton signed the agreement. I wonder why you see no big threat from the people who negotiated and ratified the agreement and very likely could have overrode a veto?

CRA? LOL twice. no three times. What a joke.

Make sure you have mommy check under your bed for libbie boogie men before she turns out the lights.

67   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 4, 9:09am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Clinton campaigned on signing NAFTA. Bush, Clinton, and the Press did a full on assault on Perot's assertion it would result in a Giant Sucking Sound of lost manufacturing jobs.

Clinton was as proud of NAFTA as he was about his support for mass incarceration.

Being a neoliberal Establishment figure means never having to own up to failures.

68   theoakman   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 4, 9:12am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says

Entitlemented says

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their mother and fathers jobs were lost to NAFTA.

Verily, many of the liberals voted for Clinton even though their parents got into housing trouble with CRA.

Myopic Liberals are a big threat to the US, but many of them decided to stop drinking the coolaid.

Reality doesn't enter into your world very often does it? NAFTA was created by George W Bush, the smiling man between Canadian PM Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. BTW they are signing NAFTA in the picture. The agreement was ratified after clinton was elected by a wide republican majority. Clinton signed the agreement. I wonder why you see no big threat from the people who negotiated and ratified the agreement an...

You need to watch this video.

69   bob2356   ignore (3)   2016 Dec 4, 9:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Ironman says

Hey Bullshit Bobby, any chance you know the difference between "created" and "signed"??

Yes, but it's sad you don't.

70   bob2356   ignore (3)   2016 Dec 4, 10:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

theoakman says

You need to watch this video.

Why? I saw it in 1993. Did it change?

71   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2016 Dec 5, 6:37am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Yes. It was downgraded to Kinemacolor, then upgraded to 1080p...,
bob2356 says

theoakman says

You need to watch this video.

Why? I saw it in 1993. Did it change?

72   Tenpoundbass   ignore (11)   2016 Dec 5, 2:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

More and more people are enjoying dinner in restaurants. We must have money.

Dinner in some restaurants cost less than a bag of tomatoes.

73   Tenpoundbass   ignore (11)   2016 Dec 5, 2:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

theoakman says

You need to watch this video.

Remember that well. I voted for Ross, and supported him every time he toyed with doing it again.

74   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 5, 2:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says

Reality doesn't enter into your world very often does it? NAFTA was created by George W Bush, the smiling man between Canadian PM Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari.

Partially correct -it was completed by Clinton, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

Bush did start the effort, which is why both parties bear some blame. Note that more Libertarians were for a more balanced type of agreement.

Incorrect about NAFTA - CRA motivated the biggest private loan makers into making CRA proactive creative like subprime and NINJA Loans:

"Mr. Cisneros met Mr. Mozilo while he was HUD secretary, when Countrywide signed a government pledge to use “proactive creative efforts” to extend homeownership to minorities and low-income Americans."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/business/19cisneros.html

75   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 5, 3:01pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

However, this was not reported on most news networks. It does not fit their propaganda............ Perhaps new should be like investigative reporting.... To this day many people dont know that the creators and top level managers of CRA worked deals to do the same in Private sector loans........

76   Tenpoundbass   ignore (11)   2016 Dec 5, 3:11pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Check out that Gore/Perot video at 9:03 to 9:27 Al Gore telling a whopper about the influx of exports to Mexico vs their imports. He then said if it doesn't work out we give 6 months notice and we're out. Al Gores own words right there.
Funny what Al Gore never said that our Jobs would go to Mexico. Because there for a while even China was cheaper than Mexico. Nafta was meant to be a trade agreement not a loophole for the establishment to get rich exporting our jobs to other countries.

Consider this the six month notice Ass Holes!

78   Entitlemented   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 6, 2:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Russia's cold war attitude must go. NOW!

79   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 6, 3:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

Job outlook growth for both LPN/RN lumped together at 16% with 2,751,000 RN jobs in 2015, an employment change of 439,300 between 2014- and 2024 vs. 719,000 LPN/LVN in 2014 and an employment change of 117,300 between 2014-2024.

And RNs are the jobs that pay. LPNs are "okay" jobs. The national average (which means you're including 45 year old LPNs with 20 years experience as well as newly minted nurses) is $43k.

However, these calculations need to take into account that if a newly minted 25-year old LPN is alive and working today, at 50 she will have a major crisis because the Gen X'ers are much, much smaller than the Boomers, and the growth in the profession will rapidly reverse. You'll seen nursing homes close entire wings and lay off half the staff in 20-25 years.

We need to stop confusing demographically-driven temporary needs with long term, sustainable trends.

It caused unmitigated disaster in the 70s, when business used the high but temporary inflation caused by Boomer Household Starts to begin destroying the New Deal system of massive prosperity gains for all.

80   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 6, 3:28pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

@Entitlemented - you do realize Rense is a few cards short of a full shuffle - yes ? He's right up there or in there with Alex Jones.

I think Rense is far nuttier than Alex Jones. Jones is a notch or two outside the Overton Window. Rense is like down the street from the Overton window.

81   Booger   ignore (1)   2016 Dec 6, 4:33pm   ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Trump has done more for the USA in less than a month than Obama has done in 8 years

82   finehoe   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 7, 6:43am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Booger says

Trump has done more for the USA in less than a month than Obama has done in 8 years

http://fortune.com/2016/12/05/trump-obama/

83   RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 7, 10:37pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Booger says

Trump has done more for the USA in less than a month than Obama has done in 8 years

Obama is still very much like a typical black man in many ways, for someone whose slogan was Change, he often responded to a problem by saying that's the way it is and there's nothing he or anyone could do to fix it.

Steve Jobs in his book said he came to him with an idea and Jobs was angry after the meeting because Obama kept telling him why it couldn't be done.

it's going to take maybe a century to see another black guy in the white house again.

84   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2016 Dec 8, 5:58am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Only if your using particle board...

anonymous says

Kind of thought forming a cabinet would have been a more pressing matter.

85   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 8, 8:32am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

TisT2 - on the LPNs unless they have the foresight etc. to look down the road and realize this is not a long term strategy and fail to work up to RN, they will be like many of the other "rust belt" workers are today which is unemployed but not do to outsourcing unless you consider the inevitable die off of the boomers outsourcing.

Yes, but the current MO is to reduce the number of RNs too with Nursing Aides. There's going to be a period when Millenials are still young, Gen Xers are old but far smaller in population and therefore little demand, and the Boomers are going to leave the Earth and medical services will hit a nadir. Business won't keep them on saying "oh, but in 20 years the millenials will be old." No, they'll lay people off.

We don't create skilled jobs, almost all the jobs we create are 3rd world tourism jobs and bottom, no-future service jobs. This has been going on for a long time, at least 15 years now, it's a trend that doesn't end, not temporary.

Some mix of this needs to happen:
1. How we can create more good paying jobs with a future
2. How to raise wages for the Buttwiping jobs we must have, since we need them and they should live a life of poverty (nor should the state have to make up the difference).

Enough with the laissez faire crap, it's only benefited the wealthy. It doesn't work.

There was no laissez faire anyway, the US Government under corporations deliberately pushed deindustrialization and globalization as a matter of policy. It's 0% Natural, 100% Lobbyist Invented.

86   indigenous   ignore (0)   2016 Dec 8, 8:37am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Thunderlips is Tovbot2 says

Enough with the laissez faire crap, it's only benefited the wealthy. It doesn't work.

How would you know they haven't had that is a looong time.

87   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 8, 12:59pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It's more than corporate taxes.

First all, when US companies manufacture abroad they play accounting games and use inversions to make and keep the profits offshore, so they aren't taxed unless they bring it back to the states. Some say there is a trillion socked away in corporate cash overseas, some $2T.

If we let them bring the cash back at least we could tax some of the dividends via capital gains.

Secondly, when a US Company moves abroad it pays:
* No more property taxes on the plant, with vast annual contributions lost to the city/county government permanently at precisely the time the local government needs to help the laid off employees.
* No more state taxes
* Ex-employees no longer contribute to payroll taxes, or they do so at a shittier, lower paying, no benefit job and contribute much less.
* Many ex-employees end up entirely on the dole, discover they have a "disability", or qualify for medicaid and food stamps because their new job at the Walmart or the Wally Distro Center pays jack shit.
* Creates Knock-on effects: The Cafe shuts down but the employees are gone or don't make enough at their new job to eat lunch out. Consultants are no longer employed. Local Trucking, Garbage Collection, Water Works, and other services of all kinds lose the factory's business, putting pressure on them to cut.
* Breaks the chain of a virtuous cycle - wealthier middle class buys more shit, which propels more middle class manufacturing jobs. This is why the 50s and 60s were great times. In the Neoliberal vice cycle, As more factories close, wealthier people buy more shit from China, the difference mostly goes into the pockets of the wealthy and well-to-do, and the former lower middle class falls into the paycheck-to-paycheck working class. Families dissolve, children go fatherless, young men turn to crime.

88   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2016 Dec 8, 1:04pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Yes, we can and have had high tech electronics manufacturing on a massive scale in the United States.

And look how white and delightsome the workers are.

89   joeyjojojunior   ignore (1)   2016 Dec 8, 4:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@thunder

Nobody is arguing that keeping jobs here is wrong. The problem is how it was done. By giving Carrier a reward for not moving jobs overseas, it opens the door for any and every company to threaten to move jobs overseas so they can get a similar deal.

It's analogous to why the US claims that it doesn't negotiate with terrorists. Of course it's better to pay the terrorist's ransom when you look in isolation, but if you do it, it encourages other terrorists to do the same.

90   Strategist   ignore (2)   2016 Dec 8, 4:37pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

joeyjojojunior says

By giving Carrier a reward for not moving jobs overseas, it opens the door for any and every company to threaten to move jobs overseas so they can get a similar deal.

Everyone will get a good deal.
Lower taxes as a incentive to stay.
Consequences, if they decide to leave.

91   HEYYOU   ignore (21)   2018 Feb 25, 3:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The voting public are suckers.
92   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 Feb 25, 4:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Libbies would rather have 770 more american families out of a job and dependent on federal/state handouts to secure their votes.

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