patrick.net

She was ready for that one, nicely done

So stupid. She didn't answer the question and too many people don't understand the questions. Islam isn't a nation state. THe question was how can you win against Jihadists if you don't address it ideologically. I'm not sure that question has an answer, but the question the lady answered was an entirely different question. Her answer said nothing about how to address it or fight it. She only explained why Islamists are a problem even if most of Islam is peaceful. Are we to conclude that this was an argument as to why we are at war with all of Islam ?

There's way to much stupid emotion on this issue and not nearly enough thoughtful discussion.

People get all excited about what's obvious, as if it is an answer to something. Wtf ?

A question to answer would be, how do we help the radical subset of Islam mature ? Another great question: Is condemning all of Islam or fighting all of Islam the best way to shrink the proportion of Islam that is radical ? That lady with her emotion didn't even scratch the surface of any important questions about what we or they need to do. She sounded like she was just stupidly spouting the obvious trying to justify blind hatred.

People are going to think I'm defending Islam and they're going to voice their hate and or fear, but they won't touch on the real questions.

Another good question. Are there perhaps some good tests or oaths to Allah that can be taken by immigrants that could help to flag Islamic immigrants that are potential terrorists? Perhaps other precautions? We do know that the modern secular world is both the cure of radical Islam and the enemy of radical Islam. How might this be used in our favor ? How can we pressure the Islamic countries (nation states such as Saudi Arabia) that nurture radical Islam to stop ?

And how exactly does a country founded on religious freedom, with such freedom a core tenet in its Constitution, discriminate based on religion?

Given the historical examples of the massive damage a small radical subset of any group can incur, maybe it's time to revisit discrimination and how it applies to a group given their published core beliefs.
As it applies to Islam, rewriting the Koran to reflect modern values is way past due.
As souls enter this world they are handed a blueprint as to what is expected of them.
If the blueprints are flawed, how can we expect the results not to be?

joeyjojojunior says

And how exactly does a country founded on religious freedom, with such freedom a core tent in its Constitution, discriminate based on religion?

marcus says

People are going to think I'm defending Islam

Is there any doubt?

PCGyver says

So is it 1.2 billion 1.8 billion or 1.6 billion Muslims?

Who knows? They already bred 300 million radicals, with more on the way.

joeyjojojunior says

And how exactly does a country founded on religious freedom, with such freedom a core tenet in its Constitution, discriminate based on religion?

By recognizing Islam as a terrorist organization, not a religion.

"By recognizing Islam as a terrorist organization, not a religion."

OK, so how do you go about doing that? What would be your objective criteria for refusing to acknowledge a religion?

Sharia is incompatible with the constitution and the majority of Muslims do not consider it to be radical. Tolerance of it is not the answer. I would say the religion itself needs a harsh reformation from within. How brave would those people have to be?

joeyjojojunior says

"By recognizing Islam as a terrorist organization, not a religion."

OK, so how do you go about doing that? What would be your objective criteria for refusing to acknowledge a religion?

Islam preaches hate and violence. It's sharia laws are nothing but human rights abuse. It's not what a real "God" would command. Islam cannot be a religion.
Call it what you like, but this evil ideology must be stopped, and it can only be stopped when leaders stop calling it a "Peaceful religion"

"Islam preaches hate and violence. It's sharia laws are nothing but human rights abuse. It's not what a real "God" would command. Islam cannot be a religion.
Call it what you like, but this evil ideology must be stopped, and it can only be stopped when leaders stop calling it a "Peaceful religion"

I don't disagree, but I'm asking how do you do it? Your opinion of what a "real" God would command is not going to cut it.

joeyjojojunior says

"Islam preaches hate and violence. It's sharia laws are nothing but human rights abuse. It's not what a real "God" would command. Islam cannot be a religion.

Call it what you like, but this evil ideology must be stopped, and it can only be stopped when leaders stop calling it a "Peaceful religion"

I don't disagree, but I'm asking how do you do it? Your opinion of what a "real" God would command is not going to cut it.

This is how we start. Look down on Islam. Criticize it. Mock it. Spread the facts about Islam. Make Muslims ashamed of being Muslims. Eventually they will start dumping it.

Strategist says

Is there any doubt?

That you are capable of objectively reading my comment ? Yes.

What is the total number of religious brain deads that believe in imaginary beings & places?

Although 72 virgins doesn't sound bad.
All mine would be ugly. I wear the bag.
That'll protect them too.

marcus says

Strategist says

Is there any doubt?

That you are capable of objectively reading my comment ? Yes.

Good evening Marcus. Did you have a nice day in class today?
You always stick up for this rotten religion. Bad choice.

marcus says

If anything your strategy would make moderate Muslims turn in to Islamists. Your stupid strategy is exactly what the Islamists (radical jihadists) want.

How would you get people, especially the younger generations to dump this rotten religion? Or do you think Islam, the breeding grounds of terrorists, should not be dumped.

HEY YOU says

Although 72 virgins doesn't sound bad.

All mine would be ugly.

Not if you blow up enough infidels.

marcus says

That lady with her emotion didn't even scratch the surface of any important questions about what we or they need to do.

I don't think she voiced emotions. The Muslim woman was trying to get the usual sympathy pass, and the lady just answered with facts. Any answer should start by not trying to hide the fact that there is a problem as is officially done in the US (all Muslims are not radical), and this is exactly what this lady did.

marcus says

THe question was how can you win against Jihadists if you don't address it ideologically.

This is easy really: just criticize bad ideas until reason wins.

Heraclitusstudent says

The Muslim woman was trying to get the usual sympathy pass, and the lady just answered with facts.

I guess I have to admit our education system sucks. You idiots can't even agree with me that she didn't answer the question ? You don't want to consider the billion or so non terrorist moderate Muslims that aren't going to be thinking about changing their religion just because of the ramblings of illiterate dimbulbs that can't even tell whether an answer matches up with a question ?

Heraclitusstudent says

answer should start by not trying to hide the fact that there is a problem as is officially done in the US

This is a total fucking lie. And the fascinating thing is that you Patrick and others never even respond or acknowledge understanding my point of view (which is the same as the view of others that don't want to condemn the entire religion).

If you are too stubborn to even hear a point of view or respond to it, and just go back to the emotion and lies then I really don't know what to say. You're hopeless.

marcus says

A question to answer would be, how do we help the radical subset of Islam mature ? Another great question: Is condemning all of Islam or fighting all of Islam the best way to shrink the proportion of Islam that is radical ?

marcus says

We do know that the modern secular world is both the cure of radical Islam and the enemy of radical Islam. How might this be used in our favor ? How can we pressure the Islamic countries (nation states such as Saudi Arabia) that nurture radical Islam to stop ?

marcus says

If anything your strategy would make moderate Muslims turn in to Islamists. Your stupid strategy is exactly what the Islamists (radical jihadists) want.

The repeated stupidity doesn't bother me as much as your unwillingness to hear or respond to simple reason.

By the way, another sort of unrelated question. If Islam is so inherently violent, why is there so little history of violence against westerners before about 1970. I'm not talking about holy wars from centuries ago. We've had our wars too. But if Islam is hopelessly violent, shouldn't there be a long history that can be traced back? For example what were the biggest attacks by Islamists, radical Jihadis or whatever you want to call them against westerners, Europeans or Americans between 1850 and 1950 ?

Surely if this is a deep ingrained pattern there should be plenty of evidence that they always behave this way.

OR is the radical part of Islam something that rises up from time to time ? I agree it needs to be put down. But I don't agree that war against all of Islam is the answer. I say again, that is exactly what the Islamists want. It gives them huge recruiting mojo for multiple reasons (especially what happens to Islamic countries economically if we are at war with all of Islam).

IT's almost as if where you're coming from is actually about your bloodlust and deep violent tendencies.

marcus says

So stupid. She didn't answer the question and too many people don't understand the questions. Islam isn't a nation state.

You are wrong. The Muslim woman didn't ask a question; she made a statement in the form of a question. Her statement was that terrorists attacks have nothing to do with Islam because the majority of Muslims are peaceful. This statement is incorrect as the panel member clearly explained with various examples throughout history. The panel addressed the argument the Muslim woman was actually making rather than the incidental question whose sole purpose was to make the case that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

As for the incidental question, what can the west do to fight the ideology of Islam, the answer is quite simple. The west must first purge itself from religion and then export secular ideas and values to the middle east. This is the only way to fight Islam and all other evils of religion.

The only thing the panel speaker got wrong is using the meaningless label of extremist. The intolerant religious person is not the extreme, but the norm for religion. Throughout history, peaceful coexistence has been the extreme behavior end for religious societies.

marcus says

By the way, another sort of unrelated question. If Islam is so inherently violent, why is there so little history of violence against westerners before about 1970. I'm not talking about holy wars from centuries ago. We've had our wars too. But if Islam is hopelessly violent, shouldn't there be a long history that can be traced back? For example what were the biggest attacks by Islamists, radical Jihadis or whatever you want to call them against westerners, Europeans or Americans between 1850 and 1950 ?

Are Westerners the only people on the planet? India, Philippines, and Africa have never ending violence from Islam.

PCGyver says

So is it 1.2 billion 1.8 billion or 1.6 billion Muslims?

The rule is that every time you mention the number, it must be larger than all previous numbers, to make people shake in fear and give up all western values without a fight.

BayArea says

She didn't answer the question and too many people don't understand the questions

She answered the question to perfection and people do understand the question and the comments reflect their approval.

PCGyver says

So is it 1.2 billion 1.8 billion or 1.6 billion Muslims?

Does a million here or there really matter?

joeyjojojunior says

OK, so how do you go about doing that? What would be your objective criteria for refusing to acknowledge a religion?

One criteria, every time a car bomb goes off in the public square somewhere in the world, guess who set it off.

Islam's motto: "WE KILL YOU!"

marcus says

But I don't agree that war against all of Islam is the answer.

War is not the answer.

Free speech is the answer. But we have already lost to the degree that the western press self-censors out of fear and political correctness.

"One criteria, every time a car bomb goes off in the public square somewhere in the world, guess who set it off."

I think you're being humorous, but that's not a criteria.

rando says

marcus says

But I don't agree that war against all of Islam is the answer.

War is not the answer.

Free speech is the answer.

In the internet age, free speech cannot be suppressed forever. People will criticize Islam. Islam will become a 4 letter word. Muslims will start becoming ashamed of their religion. More and more Muslims will dump Islam.

I agree Strat, but only if the Leftists and progressives who support Islam out of multikulti idealism can first be defeated and suppressed. Then it can be open season on this regressive fascist human-rights-slaughtering world domination scheme masquerading as a religion of "peace."

marcus says

Heraclitusstudent says

answer should start by not trying to hide the fact that there is a problem as is officially done in the US

This is a total fucking lie.

You are the one who is lying:

Bush:
"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. "

Clinton:
“Let’s be clear: Islam is not our adversary. Muslims are peaceful and tolerant people and have nothing to do whatsoever with terrorism.”

Obama
“We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam,”

This is clear: The entire bipartisan consensus completely absolves Islam of causing terror. Islam is to be considered a religion like any other. There cannot be any criticism of Islam. Any criticism of Islam is Islamophobia and to be banned.

This is absolute BS. Critical discussion is the only mechanism we have to eliminate bad ideas and foster good ideas. If you eliminate that, you give a huge pass to an evil ideology.

Add to this the rhetoric for every attack that now routinely redirects the problem to other sources: weapon control, psychiatric issues, homophobia, etc, etc...
Add to this a foreign policy where our allies - the Saudis - are among the worst exporters of radical Islamic ideology.
Add to this the constant lecturing about 'islamophobia'.

You get a picture of leaders who are paralyzed, unable to wrap their arms around the problem and even attempt to tackle it. All they do is constantly try to sweep the problem under the rug as if hoping it is going to solve itself.

marcus says

If Islam is so inherently violent, why is there so little history of violence against westerners before about 1970. I'm not talking about holy wars from centuries ago. We've had our wars too. But if Islam is hopelessly violent, shouldn't there be a long history that can be traced back?

For one thing there are clear, well financed players that now see their goals as spreading this evil ideology worldwide and refine it to its more radical core. And they are our allies.

Furthermore if you only focus on violence against others, you completely leave out the medieval cruelty that they inflict on their own population: starting with their women, their gays, their apostates, etc... Atheists in prison, bloggers hacked to death, etc...
You are completely ok with that, aren't you? It doesn't bother you that human beings would live in such conditions and we should respect their culture.

"You get a picture of leaders who are paralyzed, unable to wrap their arms around the problem and even attempt to tackle it. All they do is constantly try to sweep the problem under the rug as if hoping it is going to solve itself."

Don't be silly. These men aren't stupid-they understand the problem. If anything they see the bigger picture a lot better than you. You are naïve if you think simply pointing out that Islam is to blame and it teaches violence to Muslims will cause them to suddenly have an awakening and see the light. It would just as likely cause more hatred of the US and more suicide bombers.

I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem

marcus says

We do know that the modern secular world is both the cure of radical Islam and the enemy of radical Islam. How might this be used in our favor ?

By fostering liberal criticism of Islam.

marcus says

You don't want to consider the billion or so non terrorist moderate Muslims that aren't going to be thinking about changing their religion just because of the ramblings of ...?

What you don't understand is that the biggest reason for Muslims to believe in their crap is that everyone around them does. If I tell you tomorrow Zeus is real, I have no credibility. If everyone around you says it, it has more credibility. If a billion people, for a thousand year has been believing it, it acquires some kind of self-fulling weight.

That weight would dissolves if they were exposed to constant explanations of logical flaws, contradictions in the texts, and the absurdity of it all. The worst you can do is to actually grant respect to bad ideas.

joeyjojojunior says

If anything they see the bigger picture a lot better than you.

They understand and do nothing. They don't really take this seriously. At the heart they don't believe these ideas can represent a threat to the US. They just see it as a few bands of criminals. I guess the Romans felt the same about Christianity.
Until maybe parts of Europe become Islamic states? Or a nuke is blown in NYC?

joeyjojojunior says

It would just as likely cause more hatred of the US and more suicide bombers.

If having a discussion can causes 'moderate' Muslims to suddenly become terrorists, then indeed there is something very wrong even with moderate Muslims.

marcus says

People are going to think I'm defending Islam

No, you are not defending it in so many words, but the consensus that promotes obfuscation and doesn't to even name the problem is the first part of the problem to be solved here.

You have become the implicit ally of the most illiberal ideology on the planet.

Can you guys stop quoting Marcus? He's just trying to mind fuck us and spread his brain herpes. He's got me on ignore and I like it that way.

"If having a discussion can causes 'moderate' Muslims to suddenly become terrorists, then indeed there is something very wrong even with moderate Muslims."

I wouldn't call them "moderate", just easily convinced that the West is evil and their enemy. There is certainly something wrong. The question is what to do about it. Would you have us declare war on all Muslims? That's certainly one way to go, but how do you ever win?

Heraclitusstudent says

This is clear: The entire bipartisan consensus completely absolves Islam of causing terror.

Again this is a lie. Saying that the terrorists aren't speaking for all of Islam is only saying that all of Islam is not our enemy. This is not only politically correct, it's true. It's also obviously true that making all of Islam is our enemy is giving the Islamists what they want. IT creates more terrorists.

Why is this so hard for you to understand ?

The question is how do we have less terrorism. Not wahh, wahhh, "why doesn't the press want us to vent our FEELINGS about how messed up Islam is ?!"

joeyjojojunior says

That's certainly one way to go, but how do you ever win?

Quarantine works pretty well for most diseases. Importing the sick is a path to plague inferno.

joeyjojojunior says

The question is what to do about it.

I think the answers begin with:
(a) stop celebrating, financing, and empowering Islam;
(b) denounce and isolate it. Sharia violates human rights, and countries that impose it should be sanctioned.
For too long, America has financed, empowered, and even celebrated HIllary Clinton's Saudi sponsors and their hateful fraud of Islam. We have waged war across the Islamic world on their behalf: our foreign policy became incoherent except for Sunni Petrodollar influence. Domestically, NATO importing Islam was a dreadful mistake. We should stop doing that.

Donald Trump was right to suggest pausing Muslim immigration. We need to figure out how to stop terrorism and sharia. Until we figure out how to do that, it would be reckless to import a doctrine that advocates both.