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Cost of Medical Procedures in Other Countires


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2017 Mar 16, 8:08pm   13,354 views  61 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

Heck, let's actually list the costs.

America is so fucked by random unknowable medical costs that we are the laughing stock of the world.

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1   Ceffer   2017 Mar 16, 8:14pm  

Mexico: Removal of Head: Free with dirty look!

2   Y   2017 Mar 16, 8:31pm  

Montreal: Removal of wallet: Free with an AIDS chaser!

3   Strategist   2017 Mar 16, 8:47pm  

Saudi Arabia: Separation of head from body, free for infidels.

4   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 16, 8:49pm  

Patrick says

America is so fucked by random unknowable medical costs that we are the laughing stock of the world.

I thought you were enjoying you stock gains. Can't have that without healthcare being 1/5 of GDP.

5   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 8:30am  

I don't own any healthcare related stocks. Don't like how they exploit people.

6   FortWayne   2017 Mar 17, 8:33am  

Healthcare is too monopolistic

7   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 9:09am  

Yes, too monopolistic and non-transparent, which makes it even worse.

Providers deliberately make it very difficult to know the cost of treatments in advance. They never publish price lists. This is so that you cannot shop around. We can fix this:

https://patrick.net/1303673/2017-03-07-require-short-clear-written-presentation-of-all-non-emergency-medical-costs-before-treatment

If you could get a procedure done for $50 rather than $1,000 you'd probably travel pretty far away from your local medical monopoly to get it, and this would put pressure to keep local prices down.

8   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 9:21am  

rando says

I don't own any healthcare related stocks. Don't like how they exploit people.

Indirectly you still own them because the people that work in heathcare buy 20% or more of the products in your other stocks.

9   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 9:46am  

Can't do much about that.

10   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 10:47am  

rando says

Can't do much about that.

I understand. I was just trying to make a point that ObamaCare with its high costs has been responsible for a large portion of GDP growth. That's why everyone is afraid to take it away. Make medical procedure prices reasonable and see economy go into recession.

11   MAGA   2017 Mar 17, 11:18am  

NHS in the UK. Not as bad as many people think. I received some care from them when I was working in London.

12   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 11:24am  

tr6 says

I was just trying to make a point that ObamaCare with its high costs has been responsible for a large portion of GDP growth. That's why everyone is afraid to take it away. Make medical procedure prices reasonable and see economy go into recession.

That's interesting, never heard that explanation. But I don't believe it. The money not spent on health care would get spent on other, more productive things.

13   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 11:49am  

Ironman says

Yep... You beat me to it... the money not spent on healthcare, high deductibles, co-pays, etc. would be spent in other areas of the economy. People aren't going to stop living paycheck to paycheck, they'll just redirect their money.

Why is US outperforming the rest of the developing and emerging markets in growth. It's not all Apple, Amazon, and Facebook. Forced spending on healthcare increases growth. I did not say it was productive.

14   MisdemeanorRebel   2017 Mar 17, 12:28pm  

$160 in Japan for an MRI, one of the highest Cost of Living Countries in the World. 10% the cost of an MRI in Florida at the negotiated price with Aetna-US Healthcare.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120545569

15   MisdemeanorRebel   2017 Mar 17, 12:37pm  

More interesting stuff... 0.1% increases in health expenses despite an aging demographic that's far worse than the US.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/interviews/ikegami.html

Why? Gov't covers 25% of health care and sets the prices. Price Controls!

Remember when State Tuition was cheap? That's because State generally paid most of the College Expenses, and made sure it wasn't being spent on 6 figure Vice Assistant Associate Deans and a Health Spa at the brand new 10,000 sq foot Fitness Facility, but on tenured English-speaking professors required to teach so many classes a semester.

16   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 12:45pm  

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

0% the cost of an MRI in Florida at the negotiated price with Aetna-US Healthcare.

Florida is messed up. In Vegas you can get an MRI for under $250.

17   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 1:01pm  

I am all for making healthcare cheaper and better. At this point it will be difficult without a recession.

18   Shaman   2017 Mar 17, 1:40pm  

tr6 says

Why is US outperforming the rest of the developing and emerging markets in growth. It's not all Apple, Amazon, and Facebook. Forced spending on healthcare increases growth. I did not say it was productive.

That's a lazy way of explaining it. Kind of like keeping wage growth low and unemployment high is a good way of limiting inflation. Yet, it's been the primary method of doing that for the last twenty years. Both have been achieved by implementing policies of 1)globalism/off-shoring, 2)massively increasing immigration, 3) automation. The last one is inevitable, the first two are policy choice designed by the 1% to benefit the 1%. Everyone else gets screwed by falling wages and (contradictory to weak economy) rising rents/house prices which are also pumped by Fed attempts to "spur growth" by setting interest rates as low as they go.
The Fed has never been very effective at controlling inflation. It's meant for a far different purpose.

19   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 1:50pm  

Quigley says

That's a lazy way of explaining it.

I agree with you fully. Was just trying to make a point for Patrick because he's been super excited about stock market gains. Those gains would not be there without Obamacare.

20   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 1:53pm  

Ironman says

How do you attribute the gains in the market to Obamacare?

already explained this earlier. Healthcare 1/5 of GDP. Obamacare = forced way to raise healthcare inflation. Money in healthcare (a lot of it government subsidies) helps people who work in it buy cars and iphones.

21   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 2:32pm  

Ironman says

Do you think medical related companies make up the bulk of the stock market?

They make up proportional part of the market.

22   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 2:45pm  

Ironman says

So, then 82% of the GDP and stock market consists of NON-healthcare related companies, right?

Should we thank Obama for that too?

In 2007-2008 was housing more than 1/5 of the economy? Did it bring entire economy down with it?

23   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 3:47pm  

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

$160 in Japan for an MRI, one of the highest Cost of Living Countries in the World. 10% the cost of an MRI in Florida at the negotiated price with Aetna-US Healthcare.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120545569

Thanks WaPols! That's the kind of thing I was looking for.

USA:


http://comparemricost.com

Why can the Japanese pay only $160 for the exact same procedure on the exact same equipment?

24   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 3:54pm  

Somewhere in here is the Medicare list of medical codes and what the government will pay for each:

https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Medicare-Fee-for-Service-Payment/PhysicianFeeSched/index.html

Gold star to anyone who can figure out where it is.

25   Patrick   2017 Mar 17, 4:01pm  

Another good point I heard:

Fire departments exist solely for emergencies and are paid by tax dollars.

Why couldn't we do the same thing with emergency rooms?

26   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 4:08pm  

Ironman says

It's OK, you can admit Obamacare is a piece of crap

You forgot that i was always against ObamaCare. Curious2 and I have arguing with homeboy for years about it. https://patrick.net/1224190/2013-04-25-how-s-that-obamacare-working-out?c=956291#comment-956291

This is from 2013:

Homeboy,

You are blindly defending ObamaCare. Yes, it has some good parts, but it barely addresses the cost issue (there is 10B in it to study per patient instead of per procedure procedure payments). People like myself are bearing the cost increases. For example, my family could be making another house payment with our premium for a high deductible plan.

Again, if it was the reform that many expected in 2008, we would see premiums going down at this point.

27   anotheraccount   2017 Mar 17, 4:09pm  

Ironman says

When did the topic in this thread change to housing?

I was giving an example on how something that was less than 1/5 of the economy brought it all down because of interconnections. Healthcare is the housing now.

28   marcus   2017 Mar 17, 4:36pm  

rando says

Fire departments exist solely for emergencies and are paid by tax dollars.

Why couldn't we do the same thing with emergency rooms?

Interesting idea. And it could still be attached to a hospital that it was independent of, in terms of patient billing, but I see a lot of potential red tape and regulations at that interface between the two, to prevent the hospital from exploiting it in some way or another.

29   FortWayne   2017 Mar 17, 5:40pm  

Ironman says

tr6 says

Those gains would not be there without Obamacare.

How do you attribute the gains in the market to Obamacare?

Both Obamacare and Trumpcare are stupid. They are playing with insurance which is not healthcare. No one wants to work hard to fix the real issues.

30   HEY YOU   2017 Mar 17, 5:45pm  

Can "you" handle the truth.
This is a free market capitalist economy.
How dare anyone criticize private business.
Next "you" will want government interference & regulation.
So let's regulate whatever business "you" work in. If anyone complains
about the price,the price must be reduced.Sorry if you lose your income.
To summarize, IF YOU CAN"T PAY CASH,YOU ARE A FAILURE!
This is America,fuck other countries.
Hypocrisy is strong in all of us.

FortWayne says

No one wants to work hard to fix the real issues.

This is America! Democrats & Republicans solve any problem IMMEDIATELY,after months of committee hearings
& millions of dollars wasted.

31   Strategist   2017 Mar 17, 5:49pm  

FortWayne says

Both Obamacare and Trumpcare are stupid. They are playing with insurance which is not healthcare. No one wants to work hard to fix the real issues.

Does not fix the ridiculous cost of health care, which is the real problem.

32   MisdemeanorRebel   2017 Mar 17, 6:35pm  

rando says

Why couldn't we do the same thing with emergency rooms?

It's like splitting investment and commercial banks.

If you split the emergency from the elective, then people could shop best Price and Quality for the Elective Care while the price for Emergency would be subject to cost controls.

If you split the commercial from the investment, you cut easily cut off the CDs and checking accounts and lines of credit from the IPOs and Bundled Securities, saving Main Street while making Wall Street eat their own shit if they fuck up.

The reason the insurance/hospital industry doesn't want emergency care and elective care split apart is because they can use emergencies as leverage to support the cost of elective; just like Wall Street holds main street hostage by entwining commercial and investment banking. "Bail out our MBS derivatives or Grandma's Savings Account and Bill's Auto Care Line of Credit gets it!"

33   Booger   2017 Mar 17, 6:43pm  

tr6 says

ObamaCare with its high costs has been responsible for a large portion of GDP growth. That's why everyone is afraid to take it away. Make medical procedure prices reasonable and see economy go into recession.

Broken window fallacy.

34   bob2356   2017 Mar 17, 9:29pm  

rando says

USA:



http://comparemricost.com

Why can the Japanese pay only $160 for the exact same procedure on the exact same equipment?

Those are the charges, that's not what insurance companies pay. You will pay full list price, but the insurance companies won't.

Why do you believe it's the exact same equipment? Most MRI's in japan are done with locally produced. low field models. The high field models are used in public hospitals and are subsidized by the government. http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/articles/japanese-study-touts-low-cost-mri https://medicalskeptic.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/mri-japan-and-the-u-s/

I once asked Professor Ikegami why doctors put up with this; why don’t they just refuse to take MRI scans if the fee is so low? “The answer to that is the Fee Schedule,” the economist replied, “There is only one payment scale in Japan. If a doctor won’t accept the price in the schedule, he won’t get any business. And he won’t have the scans he needs to diagnose his patients. So the doctors accept the price.”

As it turns out, the heavy-handed price control from above has had a salutary effect on the cost of medical care. Because the permitted fee for an MRI scan is so low, for example, Japanese doctors went to the MRI manufacturers–Hitachi, Toshiba, etc.– and demanded a new line of compact, inexpensive MRI machines. The industry responded. Today, Japanese doctors and clinics can buy MRI scanners for around $150,000– about one-tenth the price of the bigger machines used in the United States.

Notice how neatly the 1/10th of the price of machines translates into 1/10th the price of scans. Ass, gas, or grass no one rides free.

Can you say price controls and subsidies? Public health care? Funny how same people bitching about the price of health care scream they will never accept public health care. You can't have it both ways. When do you think the medical equipment industry will stop lobbying to keep these cheap and low profit MRI machines out of the US? Like never I would think. Nothing like good old fashioned bought and paid for crony capitalism. Oh my, most of that lobbying money goes to republicans. Draining the swamp I see.

35   Robert Sproul   2017 Mar 18, 8:08am  

Surgery Center of Oklahoma is an interesting example of removing the corrupt iinsurance rackets from the pricing of medical service. By refusing all insurance, and being strictly cash-and-carry, are able to post flat rate pricing:
https://surgerycenterok.com/pricing/

36   Patrick   2017 Mar 18, 9:57am  

Wow, that is amazing! I have never seen any medical center price list before. Excellent. I hope others follow suit.

37   bob2356   2017 Mar 20, 5:48am  

Ironman says

That's the big reason. They won't even take credit cards. By being cash and carry, that eliminates a HUGE chunk of their overhead, a billing staff. Not having to pay wages to a whole department of paper pushers, then waiting months to get paid, they're passing on the savings to the people.

The question is, how many people have CASH to pay for their medical procedures, when over half of the country doesn't have $400 saved up for an emergency?

Very good, you are actually making a valid point about where some of the big costs of health care come from instead of just regurgitating the libertarian mantra we need more insurance company competition to reduce costs. Health insurance is a huge part of increasing the cost of health care, not reducing the cost. Are you sick?

Many people actually could save money by paying cash. If you shop around there are many instances where the cash price is less than the insurance copay . The bad news is it doesn't count toward deductible. https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-cut-your-health-care-bill-pay-cash-1455592277

38   bob2356   2017 Mar 20, 5:51am  

rando says

Wow, that is amazing! I have never seen any medical center price list before. Excellent. I hope others follow suit.

You are better off looking at websites that publish prices for all the providers in your area than looking at a single provider. Here are some https://disputebills.com/the-5-best-websites-for-comparing-medical-costs/

39   theoakman   2017 Mar 20, 6:00am  

Anything that insurance refuses to cover, the price has gone down over the past 10 years. These things are dealt with in cash most of the time. No one is willing to acknowledge this.

What comes to mind:
1. Laser eye surgery
2. Botox treatments
3. Laser hair removal
4. Plastic surgery

Doctors in New York years back tried to band together and provide a network of coverage for a family for $600 per person for the year. You pay up front for the year and could see anyone within their network. They were shut down by the state because the state claimed they were running an unlicensed insurance program. The real reason the state shut them down is because if that were allowed to happen, it would put every insurance company out of business.

40   bob2356   2017 Mar 20, 8:46am  

Ironman says

The problem is, very few actually have that cash, and the majority of the country lives paycheck to paycheck.

How do you fix that, oh great Wizard??

Ironman says

Here it is, "If my insurance isn't paying for it, I'm not getting it". This even came from people who had zero problems paying cash for it.

Reading comprehension problems again? Read the article, not that you have ever read anyone's link before but there is always a first time. The out of pocket cost using insurance is higher than just paying cash and not using the insurance at all.

Fix it? There is no fix for the US health care system where I believe it should be true is the only criteria people use for making choices. When people don't have the vaguest clue the difference between the cost of health care and the cost of health care insurance then you end up with an abortion like ACA rather than solutions that actually reduce health care costs. There is so much profit in the system that any attempt to fix it, as in actually reduce costs and profits, will be overwhelmed by lobbying money very quickly.

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