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148 Dan8267   2017 Aug 16, 2:23pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

For those who argue that the statues should remain to teach history, those statues should be replaced by ones that accurately depict the horrors of slavery including children age 11 to 16 being routinely raped by slavers. I sincerely doubt the "pro-history" side would want the real history shown, but doing so would be the right thing. I remember seeing the horrific pictures of the Holocaust in elementary school history. It served a purpose. It made sure we never forget. The same applies to the dark events and periods in American history.

149 YesYNot   2017 Aug 16, 2:33pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

TwoScoopsMcGee says

If people like YesYNot are going to demand the removal of General Lee, then they should support the removal of public-funded displays of Sanger and Tecumseh,

I read in another thread that this Sanger statue that you asked me is in a museum? I'm perfectly consistent, b/c I said that the confederate statues should go to a museum, where they can be put in proper context. By the way, we can all see that you and your team has no problem with identity politics when it suits you. Sanger seems like a pretty disgusting piece of work. She did start a great organization (PP), though, which is her real legacy.

150 YesYNot   2017 Aug 16, 3:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

For those who argue that the statues should remain to teach history, those statues should be replaced by ones that accurately depict the horrors of slavery including children age 11 to 16 being routinely raped by slavers.

This would get an interesting reaction. Some people are very sensitive to any criticisms of their culture.

151 marcus   2017 Aug 17, 12:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

iwog says

So why is the South quietly removing these monuments in the dead of night? Oh......that's why........

This is going to strengthen the hold that the GOP has on a certain segment of the south.

152 marcus   2017 Aug 17, 12:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

YesYNot says

Put up a plaque describing what was there and why it was removed, along with an apology, and plant flowers where the statue was.

I have a question, that may seem unrelated. It requires a set up.

Let's suppose that many decades or even centuries from now after many more protein alternatives including cultured meat come to the marketplace, that the consensus of humans gradually comes to be that raising animals to kill as meat, especially as it occurs in mass factory setting is extremely immoral and wrong. And that removing fish from their natural habitats is in some ways even worse. Suppose that virtually everyone no longer eats meat from animals, and that people who do eat meat are seen by most to be scumbag assholes.

Does that mean that people will be justified in looking back at all of us that eat meat now and judging us to be lowlife scumbags ?

153 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Aug 17, 12:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

As long as we give appropriate weight to Forced Sterilization, mostly of poor rural whites with no physical or mental handicaps, at the whims of local authorities. These enabling laws were passed by most of the Birth Control advocates, who almost entirely, and including Margaret Singer and most of the members of Orgs that became Planned Parenthood, embraced eugenics and Racial Hygiene

And like Dred Scot, SCOTUS approved it, as did most State Supreme Courts.

Steven Jay Gould, the famous biologist, estimated there were hundreds of thousands of victims, mostly poor white young women like Cassie Buck of Charlotesville, VA.

154 Dan8267   2017 Aug 17, 2:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

YesYNot says

Dan8267 says

For those who argue that the statues should remain to teach history, those statues should be replaced by ones that accurately depict the horrors of slavery including children age 11 to 16 being routinely raped by slavers.

This would get an interesting reaction. Some people are very sensitive to any criticisms of their culture.

And those people are lying when they say they believe the statues should remain in order to teach history. They want the statues for the sole purpose of misrepresenting history and covering up the shame that their despicable ancestors deserve. And that is exactly what this whole debate comes down to.

My ancestors did shameful things, but I want them admired because I want a higher social status. If people know I'm the descendant of slavers who raped children, then I don't look good.

Well southerners, you inherit the shame of your ancestors precisely because you are whitewashing history. Admit your ancestors were the bad guys, stop oppressing minorities, stop whitewashing history, and stop glorifying villains, and then, and only then, you will cleanse yourself of this shame. As long as you try to cover up these despicable acts or separate them from the despicable people who did them, you deserve the shame and the lower status.

155 Dan8267   2017 Aug 17, 2:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

marcus says

This is going to strengthen the hold that the GOP has on a certain segment of the south.

You mean the segment that has always voted for the racist party?

156 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Aug 17, 2:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Baltimore just removed most of it's Confederate Statues in one night.

If only the City Government showed the same energy and enthusiasm about crime or poverty.

157 YesYNot   2017 Aug 17, 5:50pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Well southerners, you inherit the shame of your ancestors precisely because you are whitewashing history. Admit your ancestors were the bad guys, stop oppressing minorities, stop whitewashing history, and stop glorifying villains, and then, and only then, you will cleanse yourself of this shame.

This is so true. By holding up the worst part of their heritage as something to celebrate, they are taking on the shame and guilt of it all. Just acknowledging the ugly truth will make them be (and look) better. The ego will not allow it, though.

158 YesYNot   2017 Aug 17, 6:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

marcus says

Let's suppose that many decades or even centuries from now after many more protein alternatives including cultured meat come to the marketplace, that the consensus of humans gradually comes to be that raising animals to kill as meat, especially as it occurs in mass factory setting is extremely immoral and wrong.

I do believe it is wrong. Having quit meat for other reasons, it's easier to confront that reality for what it is. It's no slavery IMO, but it's bad.

The more general version of that question is this: What are we doing today that will be judged as morally wrong in the future. A related question is to ask if many/most people pre 1850 recognized that slavery was wrong, but did it anyway. If so was it something that they just didn't think much about or was it something they struggled with? Slavery goes back a long time, and I realize that the answer would change over time in different societies. But, it's hard to know how you would feel about it when the whole society was accepting.

159 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Aug 17, 6:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Neo Nazis, with help from Russian Hackers, just engineered the Detroit Mayoral Election so the only major candidates are all felons.

160 FortWayne   2017 Aug 17, 8:14pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

Dan8267 says

You're both wrong. It is glorifying the south's despicable history that is sanitizing and discarding the horrors of the past

Their history is there, no need to hide it and rewrite it to fit your gay socialist agenda.

161 BlueSardine   2017 Aug 17, 8:18pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Rewriting history is part and parcel ISIS.
Exactly what they did in Iraq, reducing to rubble 3000 year old idols that date back to the assyrian empire.
Now the libbies are doing it.
Sure explains why they want to open the refugee floodgates.
In this age and time, libbies ARE isis...

162 BlueSardine   2017 Aug 17, 8:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Freudian slip? Would explain a lot...

Dan8267 says

horrors of slavery including children age 11 to 16 being routinely raped by slavers

163 Dan8267   2017 Aug 18, 8:53am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

You're both wrong. It is glorifying the south's despicable history that is sanitizing and discarding the horrors of the past

Their history is there, no need to hide it and rewrite it to fit your gay socialist agenda.

FortWayne's comment demonstrates exactly why his team is vile.

1. It's homophobic. As if being gay is at all a morally bad thing.
2. It's factually incorrect. I'm straight, not that it matters or is relevant to this issue.
3. It's stupid. Socialism is the collective payment of a good or service. No society could be run without socialism.
4. It's hypocritical. FortWayne supports the excessive spending of the largest socialist program in all of human history, the U.S. military. We could easily cut 90% of "defense" funding and be safer as a result. We'd still would be one of the top spenders, almost all of which are close allies and the exception being a most favored trading partner.
5. It's the complete opposite of the truth. The sole purpose of these statues is to hide the real history of slavery and to rewrite history to fit the lying agenda of the descendants of slavers, murderers, and child rapists. The way to restore history would be to depict white Southerners performing those acts. I can guarantee you that FortWayne would oppose that.

Everything that FortWayne writes is a lie. His opinion of how history should be taught has no weight. Honesty is critical in teaching history.

164 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Aug 18, 8:58am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Fifth Chief Justice of the US, Roger B. Taney, removed from Maryland State House.

He opposed the Missouri Compromise and was key in the Dred Scot ruling. However, he did not take the Confederate Side in the Civil War and remained with the Union. He died in 1864.

A vote of Senate Trust, which handles the State House Grounds, was taken, without public hearings, announcement, debate, or inquiry. The Statue was removed in the night.

Is President Jackson next? Taney was a Jackson appointee. We're no longer taking Confederate Rebels now, but US Political Figures in the Highest Offices of the Land.

165 FortWayne   2017 Aug 18, 9:37am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Dan8267 says

1. It's homophobic. As if being gay is at all a morally bad thing.

It is a morally bad thing.

Dan8267 says

2. It's factually incorrect. I'm straight, not that it matters or is relevant to this issue.

straight men don't post pictures of naked dudes, nor even have any. Evidence points that you are not straight.

Dan8267 says

3. It's stupid. Socialism is the collective payment of a good or service. No society could be run without socialism.

Socialism is stupid. Socialistic nations constantly run out of other peoples money sending everyone into poverty along with it, except for few government chiefs.

Dan8267 says

4. It's hypocritical. FortWayne supports the excessive spending of the largest socialist program in all of human history, the U.S. military.

It's in the constitution, we all collectively agreed to protect us from the rest of the world. That is a government function, unless you want to be a bitch to Russia, China, Germany, etc... I know you don't mind, but the rest of us do.

Dan8267 says

The sole purpose of these statues is to hide the real history of slavery and to rewrite history to fit the lying agenda of the descendants of slavers

Statues hide nothing, they just show the history and remind us of the past. It is your left wing nuts who want to rewrite the history and erase the past, losers.

166 Rew   2017 Aug 18, 10:08am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Any legal democratic process which removes a statue should be supported by the American people. That's a pure form of the American democratic system working.

Any illegal removal of a statue perceived as being emblematic of racial oppression, especially in the wake of our President abdicating basic moral and American tenets, should be understood but not supported. Destruction of public property without the public's say is wrong.

The momentum is on the side of the people. America is shrugging off Trump.

Edit: This isn't about statues though. This is about support white hate groups or enabling them.

169 Rew   2017 Aug 18, 10:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

I saw Nazis in Charlottesville.
I saw elderly black folks in Charlottesville who just 60 years ago were living in an entirely different America.
Democrats of old, via realignment, are now the Republicans of today.

I'm glad you are so bold about being wrong though. No one can mistake the motivations of the ignorance you seem to be willing to embrace.

Let's cut to the chase: A President who will not speak out strongly about radical right wing terror, and white supremacy, in the USA, is no president at all. Your move.

170 Rew   2017 Aug 18, 10:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Trump didn't say anything that wasn't said on Fox news.
Trump didn't say what he really believed.
Trump didn't say much of anything American at all.

171 Dan8267   2017 Aug 18, 3:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

1. It's homophobic. As if being gay is at all a morally bad thing.

It is a morally bad thing.

Faith is a morally bad thing. Homosexuality is not. Homosexuality harms no one. Faith harms everyone.

FortWayne says

straight men don't post pictures of naked dudes, nor even have any. Evidence points that you are not straight.

Your statements are empirically false.

1. Straight men do post pictures of naked dude in order to piss off homophobes, expose hypocrisy, and to make jokes. You are simply just wrong that no heterosexual guy has ever posted a picture of a naked man. The fact that you cannot understand why this is possible is indication of how feeble your mind is. It's not hard to understand.
2. I don't need evidence that I am straight. I need evidence that you are straight. Few people are as homophobic as you without being gay.
3. I have no incentive to lie as I do not consider being gay to be morally wrong.
4. I've written plenty of things that reveal me as a white, straight male. I've posted plenty of sexy pictures of women that had nothing to do with jokes or trolling heterosexuals. Hell, people even know the type of woman I like: tall, thin, blonde, and not overly large breasts. Even my posts about Taylor Swift being the perfect woman give away my sexual orientation. But then again, you are one to ignore any evidence that contradicts your position. You don't have to be Batman to determine my sexual orientation correctly from my posts.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

3. It's stupid. Socialism is the collective payment of a good or service. No society could be run without socialism.

Socialism is stupid. Socialistic nations constantly run out of other peoples money sending everyone into poverty along with it, except for few government chiefs.

All nations are socialistic including the United States. For your statement to be true, America must have failed. If it hasn't, then your statement is empirically false.

You support current military spending, and our military is the largest socialist program in all of history. This makes your positions utterly hypocritical and self-contradicting.

FortWayne says

It's in the constitution

That doesn't make it any less socialistic. All nations must engage in socialism. They cannot be ran without it. The military, the police, firefighters, public roads, sewers, and the electric grid are all socialist programs. Only an idiot would equate socialism with bad. To do so is to say the all those things are also bad. Don't tell me that you wouldn't be up in arms if we dismantled the military or the police. You're even more of a god-damn socialist than I am. You want to spend more on socialist programs than I do. What hypocrisy!

FortWayne says

That is a government function

So is social security, food stamps, assisted housing, public education, maintaining roads, bridges, and sewers, medicare, medicaid, and every other socialist program.
FortWayne says

Statues hide nothing, they just show the history and remind us of the past.

Bullshit. Statues are propaganda. They distort history based on the agenda of the person controlling the statue. The statues being torn down depict child rapists and torturers as heroes, which they are not. Don't tell me that you'd be OK with Muslim Americans using public funding and public land to put a statue of Osama bin Laden up that glorifies him as a hero. You would be tearing it down yourself. The only reason you don't give a shit about the descendants of slaves and their views is that you aren't a descendant of American slaves. If your ancestors were raped, tortured, and killed by the Confederates, you'd be up in arms over anyone putting a public statue of them that extols them as heroes. But because it's other people's ancestors, you don't give a shit. Utter hypocrisy!

How about we replace those statues with historically accurate ones that show them raping children and taking chunks of flesh out of the bodies of the slaves they are whipping? You wouldn't like that, would you? So you aren't interested in historical truth. You are interested in propaganda to cover up the despicable of the American South. Well, as long as assholes are trying to glorify slavers, they inherent the sins of those slavers.

172 Dan8267   2017 Aug 18, 3:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Tenpoundbass says

I've corrected your statement for you.

Blacks who are descendant from slavers are objecting to the villains who rape, tortured, and murdered their ancestors being venerated as heroes in statues that whitewash history that were built by the white Christian conservative descendants of the white Christian conservatives slavers who committed those atrocities. The slavers and their descendants were members of the Democratic Party, the party of the south, until the two parties switched in the 1960s with Nixon's Southern Strategy. From the 1960s on, the Democratic Party was the party of the north while the Republican party has been the party of the south and the party of the white Christian conservative descendants of the slavers who changed the Republican Party's platform to be the same as the Dixiecrat platform before it. In every election before the Southern Strategy, the south voted as a unified block for the Democratic Party, while in every election since the Southern Strategy, the south voted as a unified block for the Republican Party.

So clearly, the party of the south, whatever it is called, is the party of evil, and today that is the Republican Party.

The white nationalists call themselves NeoNazis, literally "new Nazis", and wear swastikas and other Nazi symbols. In the 1940s they would have been shot on sight as traitors. Today they are tolerated by the government, but politically opposed by 90% of America including those who want the statues removed.

Some white nationalists are active Klan members. The Klu Klux Klan is the largest terrorist organization in American history and is forever tangled up in American history. As it is a terrorist organization, you might not want to be on their side.

As for Trump, it's certainly not all his fault, but he is also certainly stoking the flames. The statues should never have been erected. Most were erected in the early 20th century when racism and the KKK were at their peaks. The statues were erected for the purpose of glorifying the Confederate traitors and humiliating blacks in the South. They are propaganda from people who still wished the south had won the Civil War. The KKK even took the Confederate battle flag as a symbol that the KKK was continuing the Civil War. This is why that flag is so popular in the South even today even though it's not even the Confederate flag and no one knew about it until about 1920.

There have been attempts to get rid of these statues for decades. However, now popular opinion has reached a tipping point and it is inevitable that they will all be removed. Trying to stop them from being removed only makes the white nationalists and southerners look even more racist and villainous. At this point in history, demanding statues that glorify slavers is as stupid as demanding statues that glorify Nazis or Jihadists. You are clearly on the wrong side of history and will forever look the fool. Your descendants will be ashamed of you and deny being related to you.

173 Dan8267   2017 Aug 18, 3:38pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Tenpoundbass says

What utter hypocrisy! For eight years the conservative right said the exact same things about Obama. He didn't condemn Islamic terrorism quick enough, loud enough, soon enough. He didn't use these word, "Islamic terrorism".

Is that really your playbook? To take every criticism you levied against Obama for eight years, and when it is levied against Trump to bitch about it?

The conservative left and the conservative right are identical. The literally do the exact same thing.

As for us liberals, here's what I wrote immediately about Trump when he was criticized for not naming white nationalists in particular...

Dan8267 says

Trump was right to say "on many sides".

Well, that just completely fucks up your theory.

175 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Aug 19, 10:03am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

He didn't condemn Islamic terrorism quick enough, loud enough, soon enough. He didn't use these word, "Islamic terrorism".

This is True. Trump DID name the Klan and Neo-Nazis by name. Obama, not even after San Ber or Orlando, said Radical Islamic Terror or similar words. Indeed, his first concern, like that of the Coastal Elite Mafia, was to impress upon people "Not All Muslims." Furthermore, the Obama Regime called Al Qaeda affiliates - the group responsible for 9/11 and thousands of US deaths - "Moderate Rebels".

Imagine if Trump correctly stated that most White Supremacists/Neo-Nazis never kill anybody, and Not All White Supremacists are "like that"? The Media and the Left would Flip the Hell Out.

Yet it's okay for Obama to lead the aftermath of every Islamic Terror attack by reminding everybody that not everyone who shares the terrorists' ideology has killed people.

Double Standards suck.

179 Dan8267   2017 Aug 21, 8:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

zzyzzx says

Aren't the people whining about the statues being removed the cry babies? They lost the war. You don't get a statue for losing a war. Next time win, losers.

180 YesYNot   2017 Aug 21, 8:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

TwoScoopsMcGee says

This is True... Obama, not even after San Ber or Orlando, said Radical Islamic Terror... Indeed, his first concern, like that of the Coastal Elite Mafia, was to impress upon people "Not All Muslims."

Trump would not say "radical Christian terrorists" were responsible for the death of Heather Heyer, even though the terrorist clan members say that they are following Christianity. Trump didn't just say that "not all Christians" are terrorists. He doesn't have to, because in a Christian nation, the thought is fucking preposterous, and nobody is bitching about it. I'm not saying that there is an equivalent between Islam and Christianity. I'm suggesting that it should be self evident that not all Muslims are terrorists. The reason it offends you so much is that you think that all Muslims share the terrorist ideology, which is evident from this:
TwoScoopsMcGee says

Yet it's okay for Obama to lead the aftermath of every Islamic Terror attack by reminding everybody that not everyone who shares the terrorists' ideology has killed people.

Trump went even much further than Obama when he said that many people protesting in Charlottesville were good people. What I saw were numerous angry people carrying torches and screaming about the Jews and white blood and white soil. Where were the good people? Were they in that group? Nobody knows what the fuck he was talking about if not defending the tiki torch bearers. Trump has the stage, so he could clarify all he wanted if he chose to, but he doesn't want to. His words are being interpreted just the way he wants them to be - hanging out there for us to argue about.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Coastal Elite Mafia

Is this the flip side of the RealAmerica(TM) Mafia?

182 zzyzzx   2017 Aug 25, 8:47am   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/us/monuments-confederacy-remove-rename.html

It began with calls to remove Confederate generals.

But since the violence in Charlottesville, Va., two weeks ago, the anger from the left over monuments and public images deemed racist, insensitive or inappropriate has quickly spread to statues of Christopher Columbus, the former Philadelphia tough cop Mayor Frank Rizzo, Boston’s landmark Faneuil Hall, a popular Chicago thoroughfare and even Maryland’s state song. An Asian-American sportscaster named Robert Lee was pulled from broadcasting a University of Virginia football game so as not to offend viewers.

183 Dan8267   2017 Aug 25, 8:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Fixed your political cartoon...

185 Dan8267   2017 Aug 25, 1:27pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

zzyzzx says

If you want the American flag to be respected, then it must not be used for any evil purposes. This means that you cannot torture anyone, not even terrorists and especially not innocent people accused or suspected of terrorism. It also means that the ONLY wars you can fight are defensive ones. You cannot fight a war to secure resources, not even oil. It means you cannot fight wars like Vietnam and the second Iraq War. It also means you cannot have undeclared wars. It also means you cannot create dictators in other countries for your own political purposes. It also means you cannot assassinate or attempt to assassinate foreign leaders, even ones that you consider to be assholes like Fidel Castro. It also means that you cannot wage war against your own people, regardless of race or class. You cannot suppress votes. You cannot have second-class citizens. And you cannot engage in genocide of any matter or any land stealing, even from people who wear funny feathers.

If you do any of those things under the American flag than it fails to be a symbol of freedom. It becomes every bit as much of a symbol of oppression and atrocities as your enemy's flag. And once your flag is associated with atrocities, it takes centuries to clean that image. You don't get to bitch and moan that your flag, soiled with genocide, slavery, false flag operations, dictatorships, unjust wars, and the killing of your own citizens isn't universally respected. In order for your flag to be universally respect, the country behind that flag must never commit an atrocity.

If you want your flag to be respected more, then get your government to do only good. And start caring more about your fellow country men than some stupid symbol. Those black men shot to death by cops, were Americans. Those homeless guys on the street, they are Americans. Most of the people in our prisons and jails are Americans. All the people that the conservative right calls "not the real America" are Americans. Even those Antifa assholes and beaten by Base Stickman are Americans. You don't virtue points for glorifying a piece of fabric while dehumanizing your fellow Americans.

186 BlueSardine   2017 Aug 25, 2:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

I completely agree with Dan on this post.
The associated evidence completely back up his point.
Hey Dan, how can I subscribe to your channel?

Dan8267 says

The conservative left and the conservative right are identical. The literally do the exact same thing.

As for us liberals, here's what I wrote immediately about Trump when he was criticized for not naming white nationalists in particular...

Dan8267 says

Trump was right to say "on many sides".

Well, that just completely fucks up your theory

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