forgot password register

reset password

register

patrick.net

 

#misc


#housing #investing #politics #random more»
771,886 comments by 11,157 registered users, 2 online now: CBOEtrader, The All Seeing Eye Of Bullshit
new post
« prev   misc   next »

0

Islam - will you ever have a truthful perspective ?

By marcus following x   2017 May 25, 8:25pm 3,831 views   37 comments   watch   quote     share  

A lot of rubbish talk about Islam today. Some of it partly true, but all coming from a frame of justifying hate and a very weakly conceived notion of what hating and shunning Muslims would lead to.

Yes, if you want moderate Islam to be a religion of peace, you call it that. Since a majority of muslims already see it that way.

Denying that a majority of Muslims believe it to be a religion of peace is provably a lie.

I know this is Wikipedia but all sources are clearly identified.

A 2007 Pew Research Center study of several nations throughout the Muslim world showed that opposition to suicide bombing in the Muslim world is increasing, with a majority of Muslims surveyed in 10 out of the 16 of the countries responding that suicide bombings and other violence against civilians is "never" justified, though an average of 38% believe it is justified at least rarely. Opposition to Hamas was the majority opinion in only 4 out of the 16 countries surveyed, as was opposition to Hezbollah.[5] The Pew Research Study did not include Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Libya, and Algeria in the survey, although densely populated Muslim countries such as Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, and Bangladesh were included.

A YouGov survey for the Daily Telegraph,[6] published two weeks after the July 2005 bombings in the London Underground, showed that 88% of British Muslims were opposed to the bombings, while 6% (about 100,000 individuals) fully supported them, and one British Muslim in four expressed some sympathy with the motives of the bombers.[7] A 2007 poll found that one Muslim in four thought the Government had staged the bombings and framed the Muslims convicted.[8] A 2011 study by Pew Research showed that 64% of Muslim Americans thought that there was not much or no support among them for extremism, while 6% thought there was a great deal, and 15% thought there was a fair amount.[9] A 2017 survey showed that most Muslims in many Muslim-majority countries view the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria unfavorably; these views were especially common in Jordan and Lebanon. In Pakistan, 62% of Muslims polled offered no opinion on ISIS. The same survey showed that most Muslims consider violence against nonbelievers to be "rarely or never justified."[10]

In 2010 Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri issued the Fatwa on Terrorism, endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt.

In 2008 the 9 killed Mumbai militants who perpetrated the 2008 Mumbai attacks were refused an Islamic burial by influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust who stated 'People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim'.[11]

A gallup poll published in 2011, "suggests that one's religious identity and level of devotion have little to do with one's views about targeting civilians."[27] The results of the survey suggested that "human development and governance - not piety or culture" were the strongest factors in explaining the public's view of violence toward civilians.[27] According to an ICM Research poll in 2006, 20% of British Muslims felt sympathy with the July 7 terrorist bombers' "feelings and motives", although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the attack.[28] In another poll by NOP Research, almost one in four British Muslims believe that the 7/7 attacks on London were justified.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

1 curious2   2017 May 25, 8:38pm   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

marcus says

In Pakistan, 62% of Muslims polled offered no opinion on ISIS. The same survey showed that most Muslims consider violence against nonbelievers to be "rarely or never justified."[10]

More than 80% of Pakistanis demand Sharia, which commands the death penalty for blasphemers. Most Pakistanis don't need personally to commit the violence; they elect politicians to do that for them.

marcus says

Opposition to Hamas was the majority opinion in only 4 out of the 16 countries surveyed, as was opposition to Hezbollah.[5]

A math teacher could tell you what that means.

The percentages of support for suicide terrorism that you listed add up to many millions of people. We should not allow millions of suicide terrorists and their supporters to immigrate here.

I have a truthful perspective on Islam based on what it says and does, and what believers say and do around the world. You don't like those facts, and so you become emotionally overwrought and call me names.

2 marcus   2017 May 25, 8:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Yes, whether it's four percent or 6 percent or whatever that actually respect terrorism in western cities, that's a problem. I don't deny the problem. But I will never see that political correctness that strives to focus on the peaceful majority of Muslims is a problem. It is beyond absurd, to suggest that focusing on the peaceful majority is the same as denying the connection between the fundamentalist version of the religion and the Islamists or terrorists in the extreme minority. .

3 Strategist   2017 May 25, 8:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

marcus says

A lot of rubbish talk about Islam today. Some of it partly true, but all coming from a frame of justify hate and a very weakly conceived notion of how what hating and shunning Muslims would lead to.

Yes, if you want moderate Islam to be a religion of peace, you call it that.

Most ridiculous claim i have ever read in all my life. Muslims have called Islam a religion of peace since day one. Just how peaceful is it?
Marcus, even though I disagreed with you every now and then, I always had respect for your points of view. I am very disappointed.

4 marcus   2017 May 25, 9:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

I am very disappointed.

IT's probably becasue you don't want to understand my point of view. Notice I'm not saying you should agree with it. But you might be capable of understanding it. I'm pretty sure Patrick isn't capable of understanding it. It's sad when emotion prevents you from even considering or trying to understand another point of view. I guess that's what happens when deep down you know that you're on thin ice.

5 curious2   2017 May 26, 12:12am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

marcus says

rubbish...lie...isn't capable of understanding...another point of view.

Everyone can understand your view and why it's obviously wrong. You're saying essentially that most Nazis didn't personally commit war crimes, therefore you don't want anyone to say anything bad about Hitler or Nazis. The thing people struggle to understand is how a person who claims to be educated and intelligent could possibly believe such rubbish.

6 FP   2017 May 26, 1:26am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

marcus, marcus, how much time did you spend writing this? And for what? To engage George in a discussion. Even if some the PNP's show up, is it worth your time?

7 YesYNot   2017 May 26, 3:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FP says

marcus, marcus, how much time did you spend writing this?

Probably about 2 minutes. He went to Wikipedia and read it, then he copied and pasted it here.

marcus says

showed that 88% of British Muslims were opposed to the bombings, while 6% (about 100,000 individuals) fully supported them, and one British Muslim in four expressed some sympathy with the motives of the bombers.[7]

This kind of thing is proof that the majority of Muslims in the UK are not being taught every week that killing infidels is what Islam tells them to do. It is proof that the vast majority are somewhat peaceful. OTOH, 6% fully supporting terrorism is a huge problem. marcus says

But I will never see that political correctness that strives to focus on the peaceful majority of Muslims is a problem.

Focusing on the peaceful majority while ignoring the existence of the 6% is a problem. But I wholeheartedly agree with you that Western leaders should absolutely not try to convince the other 94% that we are in a cultural / religious war, and that they need to pick a side. This ends with us telling them that they can either renounce their religion or do as it says, try to kill us, and prepare to die. Even Trump has come around in his language to the side of reason. I don't think he's fully convinced, but he's not prepared to force his will on the rest of his administration. That's uncharacteristic and an impressive show of restraint coming from Trump.

8 sagacious1   2017 May 26, 5:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

The dilemma for Islam historically is that it has been governance by theocracy, more recently via ecclesiocracy. This poses unique challenges for it to function within other forms of governance, particularly assimilation. How for example, are a people who's belief system demands their deity's rules supersede any other law, abide in this circumstance? This has always been the challenge with Islam throughout history. It also is why the predominately Muslim countries, are predominately Muslim in composition.....Iran: 99.4% Muslim Saudis Arabia: virtually 100% Muslim and so forth. A question to ask to unveil this unique challenge, is why other religions cannot exist to any degree in Muslim Nations? Or, more succinctly....Is Islam incompatible with other forms of government? If not, how can this issue be resolved?

9 YesYNot   2017 May 26, 6:06am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

sagacious1 says

Or, more succinctly....Is Islam incompatible with other forms of government? If not, how can this issue be resolved?

If an individual thinks that their religion is incompatible with the country that they are living in, then they should do what they can to self deport. There are plenty of countries that are compatible. In America, you have freedom of thought and religion as long as you accept and obey the secular laws. Freedom of religion does not give you the right to disobey the law. That applies to Christians too, even if their wacky beliefs only prevent them from doing their job and baking a cake or signing a marriage license.

10 Strategist   2017 May 26, 8:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

sagacious1 says

A question to ask to unveil this unique challenge, is why other religions cannot exist to any degree in Muslim Nations? Or, more succinctly....Is Islam incompatible with other forms of government? If not, how can this issue be resolved?

This issue cannot be resolved. Just accept it.

11 someone else   2017 May 26, 9:36am   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

Leftists seem to think that peaceful secular tolerance and violent religious intolerance (Islam) need some kind of marriage.

It can never work. What they really need is a divorce.

We should stay over here and not bomb them, and they should stay over there and enjoy Islam.

13 Heraclitusstudent   2017 May 26, 10:32am   ↑ like (5)   ↑ dislike (5)     quote        

marcus says

I don't deny the problem. But I will never see that political correctness that strives to focus on the peaceful majority of Muslims is a problem.

The moderate Muslims, by asking for respect for their hateful teachings, are part of the problem.
There is only 1 moral thing to do and it is to reject these teachings. There is no tiptoeing around it.

14 Heraclitusstudent   2017 May 26, 10:35am   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

The moment you teach these texts are revelations, coming directly from God, you are crossing into a territory where good human beings can change into sociopaths for no good reason.

15 BayArea   2017 May 26, 10:58am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Patrick says

We should stay over here and not bomb them, and they should stay over there and enjoy Islam

👍👍👍

16 Quigley   2017 May 26, 11:03am   ↑ like (4)   ↑ dislike (4)     quote        

marcus says

focus on the peaceful majority of Muslims is a problem.

I agree with you! The peaceful majority of Muslims are a problem! The problem is that they infect their children with the Islam cancer which metastasizes into radicalism in some, and these go on to commit San Bernadino, Orlando, Manchester....
So yes, this peaceful majority is just an incubator for terror. There's no conceivable positive of having people with such an ideology around.

17 curious2   2017 May 26, 11:07am   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Found a text searchable copy, on FB:

"Let me try to explain this yet again. There are no qualifiers associated with Islam. There isn't radical Islam versus sweet Islam. No extremist Islam versus peaceful Islam. No mean Islam versus kind Islam.

Islam is a collection of revelations and ideas covered in the Qur'an, the hadiths, and the Sira. Islamic divine law is codified via Sharia law (see the Reliance of the Traveller).

Individual Muslims vary in the extent to which they abide to the tenets of Islam. Some of these tenets are spiritual and peaceful, others are violent and filled with genocidal hate. Both are contained within the same invariant Islam.

If someone says "Radical Islam," the next question that you should ask him/her is the following: Where is the holy book of radical Islam and how is it uniquely separate from the latter sources? Same question could be asked of "Jihadism," "Islamism," and other obfuscating euphemisms.

The reason for using these meaningless qualifiers is clear. People find it unpalatable to criticize a religion in a direct and frontal manner. As such, they construct alternative unicorn ideologies that are "outside" of the "true faith." As long as this trepidation remains part of the West's zeitgeist, the issue will NEVER be resolved. That's THE SAAD TRUTH."

18 P N Dr Lo R   2017 May 26, 11:30am   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

sagacious1 says

The dilemma for Islam historically is that it has been governance by theocracy, more recently via ecclesiocracy.

That's why there is not even a middling parallel between Christianity and Islam. While America is a nation where Christianity may still be nominally in the majority, Christianity is not the government and law. Islam is the government and law, a religious tyranny. When Muslims immigrate to a country, there is never the idea of assimilating into that country's culture--their ultimate goal is to replace that country's law with Sharia law and establish exactly what they have in those Middle Eastern countries where everyone has to live by the one true religion. It is as nonsensical as if an American went to Paris, then began demanding that everyone convert to the laws of America on pain of death and blew themselves up to make the point.

19 curious2   2017 May 26, 11:40am   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

sagacious1 says

Is Islam incompatible with other forms of government?

Ultimately, you cannot long combine Islam and democracy without sliding into Sharia, which crushes all other religions and western notions of liberty. In most countries that have Muslim majorities, most Muslims demand Sharia. Read about Asia Bibi on death row in Pakistan, and the assassination of Governor Taseer, and the incarceration of the former governor of Jakarta, Basuki Purnama (Ahok), now in prison sentenced for blasphemy, and see some of the consequences. As Islam metastasizes through a society, it takes over and kills everything else: most countries that have more than 20% Muslims, have more than 90% Muslims. As Nassim Taleb wrote, the west is "committing suicide" by importing Islam.

To respond to YesYNot's parachuting question, the invade&import westerners are throwing their neighbors' kids out of otherwise safe planes, and feeling good about it, because parachutes usually work. The problem with using past statistics regarding terror is they do not guarantee future results. One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day. An egomaniacal person, or a group of believers in a megalomaniacal doctrine, can tend to explode when facts hurt their feelings. Islam maximizes the resulting carnage. More than 20 Muslim countries have already agreed a world plan against blasphemy, and the Islamic State has published online kill lists including Americans living in America. It reminds me of a poem:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Atheists are disbelievers, blasphemers, and now by definition terrorists according to Saudi law. I hope they won't find you, @YesYNot, but they do have a plan. I suggest you should speak out while you still can, and not throw kids out of planes without their consent, even if you enjoy parachuting in your spare time. There is nothing virtuous about spreading Islam. If MSM photos of hapless Muslims (notice they don't show hapless Hindus or Buddhists) require you to do something for Muslims, send them some Richard Dawkins books (which they will probably burn).

20 Tim Aurora   2017 May 26, 12:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Patrick says

We should stay over here and not bomb them, and they should stay over there and enjoy Islam.

You know that in today's world it is not possible. (What do you say to converts like Mohammed Ali) . Pretty soon , you will be asking every other religion , followed by agnostics , followed by different Christian sects to leave America.

The practical way is for Muslims to find a way to curb the extremist .

21 P N Dr Lo R   2017 May 26, 12:48pm   ↑ like (3)   ↑ dislike (3)     quote        

Tim Aurora says

you will be asking every other religion , followed by agnostics , followed by different Christian sects to leave America.

No we won't because no other religion except Islam, including atheists, blows people to smithereens because they don't accept their view.

22 FP   2017 May 26, 1:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Tim Aurora says

The practical way is for Muslims to find a way to curb the extremist .

This. Finally someone. So obvious.

23 curious2   2017 May 26, 1:19pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

FP says

Tim Aurora says

The practical way is for Muslims to find a way to curb the extremist .

This. Finally someone. So obvious.

Obviously wrong, you mean. It's the answer you've copied&pasted from countless MSM repetition, just as marcus copied&pasted Wikipedia, so you can pretend you're "smart" and everyone else is a "monkey" or otherwise subhuman. In fact, you're simply wrong. See my comment above.

24 MMR   2017 May 26, 1:31pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

marcus says

But I will never see that political correctness that strives to focus on the peaceful majority of Muslims is a problem.

Supporting the person who pulls the trigger is nearly as bad as pulling the trigger yourself

25 Quigley   2017 May 26, 1:33pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

How do you call someone an extremist if he's studied your holy book extensively and found that it clearly instructs him to wage war on unbelievers? I think what these fools are saying is they want to make Muslims more ignorant of their Quran. Which is ironic since we keep supporting SA which exports oil and madrasaahs to facilitate the study of that book of siphilitic fantasies.

26 Strategist   2017 May 26, 2:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FP says

Tim Aurora says

The practical way is for Muslims to find a way to curb the extremist .

This. Finally someone. So obvious.

Yup. Problem solved. Thank You guys. I'll nominate you for the peace prize.

27 curious2   2017 May 26, 2:09pm   ↑ like (4)   ↑ dislike (4)     quote        

Strategist says

Yup. Problem solved. Thank You guys. I'll nominate you for the peace prize.

Sarcasm doesn't usually work online. They'll imagine that they've converted you. They've been so badly blinded by their preferred media that they can't see their proposed response is the status quo that has caused the ongoing carnage and deprivations of liberty we see worldwide, and that has continued losing around the world.

28 FP   2017 May 26, 7:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

Yup. Problem solved. Thank You guys. I'll nominate you for the peace prize.

How ironic given your username that you don't distinguish strategy from tactics.

29 BlueSardine   2017 May 26, 8:02pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Two "ways" in a sentence is not a cure, just answering a question with a question...

FP says

Tim Aurora says

The practical way is for Muslims to find a way to curb the extremist .

30 Strategist   2017 May 26, 8:17pm   ↑ like (5)   ↑ dislike (5)     quote        

FP says

Strategist says

Yup. Problem solved. Thank You guys. I'll nominate you for the peace prize.

How ironic given your username that you don't distinguish strategy from tactics.

You presented neither strategy nor tactic. You presented a dream that has never come true in the 1,400 years of Islamic history. While your kind waits, millions suffer human rights abuse, torture, death, and terrorism.

31 FP   2017 May 26, 11:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

You presented a dream that has never come true

I presented a dream??? WTF?

32 MMR   2017 May 27, 1:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

FP says

Strategist says

You presented a dream that has never come true

I presented a dream??? WTF?

I am guessing what he means is that a 'goal without a plan is a wish'

The proposed goal is nothing new or original.

33 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 May 27, 1:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Gad Saad on Ostrich Parasitic Syndrome

When they say "We won't let hate divide us." they're not talking about Islamists. They're talking about ignoring counter-factuals that hurt their narrative that only Whites can be Hateful.

34 FP   2017 May 27, 3:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

MMR says

FP says

Strategist says

You presented a dream that has never come true

I presented a dream??? WTF?

I am guessing what he means is that a 'goal without a plan is a wish'

The proposed goal is nothing new or original.

First, no it is not a goal. The goal is to stop Islamic terrism.

Second, the idea that this cannot be achieved without the cooperation of the Islamic community is apparently, and quite surprising, original for this site.

A basic principle in fighting an asymmetric war is that it cannot be won as long as the insurgent groups can find support in the population.

35 curious2   2017 May 27, 3:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FP says

it cannot be won as long as the insurgent groups can find support in the population.

As long as the Koran finds support in the population, the express commands to "strike terror into" the enemies of Allah and "kill the disbelievers" can likewise find support. You have essentially stated that you cannot win a 'war on terror' as long as the Koran finds support in the population.

And, besides, Islam causes more problems in addition to terror. In the long run, the spread of Sharia is ultimately even worse. Hammond's description of Islamization outlines the medium term consequences also, including sporadic murders and episodic genocides. The painfully familiar descent from 20% Muslim to 90% Muslim population is well documented: it starts with allowing in Hijrah, and ends in Sharia. That is why most countries that have allowed themselves to become more than 20% Muslim are now more than 90% Muslim. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You mentioned Balzac. On present trend, France will have a Muslim majority within a century. Most countries with Muslim majorities ban Voltaire, and would either execute him or allow him to be killed with impunity by a vigilante Sharia patrol. Already multiple Birmingham government schools ban parts of the GCSE as un-Islamic, at 22% Muslim population. France with a Muslim majority would ultimately ban Voltaire, Sartre, Charlie Hebdo, and most of the best of French culture.

36 Strategist   2017 May 27, 6:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FP says

First, no it is not a goal. The goal is to stop Islamic terrism.

Second, the idea that this cannot be achieved without the cooperation of the Islamic community is apparently, and quite surprising, original for this site.

A basic principle in fighting an asymmetric war is that it cannot be won as long as the insurgent groups can find support in the population.

Islam is a very violent religion. No Muslim group or infidels have ever succeeded in making Islam peaceful. The only way to make Islam peaceful is to approach it with a long term solution. First:
1. Control their dictators.
2. Kill as many terrorists as possible.
3. Make their dictators subdue those who preach hate and violence.
4. Educate the masses with real education.
5. Expose the masses to intense criticism of Islam.
6. Slowly introduce democracy.

users   about   suggestions   source code   contact  
topics   best comments   comment jail  
10 reasons it's a terrible time to buy  
8 groups who lie about the housing market  
37 bogus arguments about housing  
get a free bumper sticker:

top   bottom   home