patrick.net

Illegal crossings have dropped by 60-70% since Trump took office. My guess is the border crossings that are "viable" have dropped dramatically, and the cartels are fighting for those crossings/territories.

Goran_K says

Illegal crossings have dropped by 60-70% since Trump took office. My guess is the border crossings that are "viable" have dropped dramatically, and the cartels are fighting for those crossings/territories.

That seems plausible, yet some of the most violent areas lie deep within the Country's interior away from the border and viable crossings. Also, with such strict gun laws how does this level of violence persist and is it fair to gun-control proponents in the U.S. to make any comparison? In other words, does Mexico have separate unique circumstances that can't allow comparison?

We are sending them their criminals back.

sagacious1 says

Also, with such strict gun laws how does this level of violence persist and is it fair to gun-control proponents in the U.S. to make any comparison? In other words, does Mexico have separate unique circumstances that can't allow comparison?

Gun control doesn't work. You can use Europe, Australia, the U.S, etc.

The only thing unique to Mexico compared to the United States is that Mexican citizens are not allowed to actually "bear arms" (though they can legally "own" them). So the public at large is disarmed, and the criminals ignore those laws and carry all sorts of illegal firearms, unrestricted, unregulated, for use in anyway they want without fear that any mexican citizen can stop them.

They need betterer, stricterer, commonsenserer gun control laws.

sagacious1 says

Mexico has very strict gun laws,

That must be why Carlos slim can drive his own car across any street in Mexico at any time of the day without worrying about being kidnapped or murdered

Goran_K says

sagacious1 says

Also, with such strict gun laws how does this level of violence persist and is it fair to gun-control proponents in the U.S. to make any comparison? In other words, does Mexico have separate unique circumstances that can't allow comparison?

Gun control doesn't work. You can use Europe, Australia, the U.S, etc.

The only thing unique to Mexico compared to the United States is that Mexican citizens are not allowed to actually "bear arms" (though they can legally "own" them). So the public at large is disarmed, and the criminals ignore those laws and carry all sorts of illegal firearms, unrestricted, unregulated, for use in anyway they want without fear that any mexican citizen can stop them.

Yes well, there are those who point to Japan, Canada and even the UK as Countries who have successfully curbed gun violence with gun control. These Counties have a similar amount of freedoms and liberties as we enjoy. Is it wrong to ask "If it can work there, it can work here?". That's the argument. Or is the approach too 1 dimensional so as not to be effective universally, such as in Mexico? Are there other factors at play?

sagacious1 says

Yes well, there are those who point to Japan, Canada and even the UK as Countries who have successfully curbed gun violence with gun control. These Counties have a similar amount of freedoms and liberties as we enjoy. Is it wrong to ask "If it can work there, it can work here?". That's the argument. Or is the approach too 1 dimensional so as not to be effective universally, such as in Mexico? Are there other factors at play?

I'd disagree with UK. After the UK handgun ban, homicides rates actually spiked, then eventually normalized to their lower rates right before the ban.

There is literally no correlation between the handgun ban and a decrease in violent crime or homicides using the UK.

Japan is a special case as well.

Yes Japan has no 2nd Amendment in their Constitution, so they do not have the right granted individually by the state to own or bear arms. However on the flip side, Japan also has no 4th Amendment rights in their Constitution. The police routinely ask "suspicious" characters to show what is in their purse or sack. In effect, the police can search almost anyone, almost anytime, because courts only rarely exclude evidence seized by the police -- even if the police acted illegally. I've been to Japan many times during my career and regularly saw teenagers having their bags searched by police as they exited certain stores. So people carrying illegal guns, or weapons of any kind, are hesitant to do so because they can be searched at any time by police.

You add in the extremely strong social stigma with criminals or people who have gone to prison, and you see a homogeneous, conformist social culture does an excellent job of keeping citizens out of crime in the first place. This is like the Mormon communities across the United States who also exhibit very low crime rates (almost as low as Japan), but there is one big difference: Mormons own LOTS of guns.

It makes me believe that problems with violence and homicide are more based on culture than it is on an inanimate object, like a gun or knife.

sagacious1 says

Mexico has very strict gun laws,

What are these very strict gun laws? Last time I checked buying a gun in mexico was very easy. Proof of residence or citizenship, address, and criminal back round check you are good to go.

Goran_K says

There is literally no correlation between the handgun ban and a decrease in violent crime or homicides using the UK.

Where is the statistics for gun homicide rates? Why didn't you post the same chart for Australia?

bob2356 says

What are these very strict gun laws?

Not an expert, but IIRC they have very restricted set of firearms you're allowed to own. They divide guns to "military" and "non-military" by some weird rule based on ammunition it shoots. In practice, average citizen cant have a pistol or revolver shooting anything more powerful than .380 ACP or .38 Special and with rifles it's something even more pathetic (rimfire only?).

And there are some draconian rules on transporting the guns. Something ridiculous like asking police permission every time you're taking your gun out of your house.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/Resources/Crime%26Inequality.pdf

Rew says

More unrestricted immigration ==> more inequality ==> more crime.

bob2356 says

sagacious1 says

Mexico has very strict gun laws,

What are these very strict gun laws? Last time I checked buying a gun in mexico was very easy. Proof of residence or citizenship, address, and criminal back round check you are good to go.

Mexico had a very rich and close relationship with gun ownership and use through much of it's history. Around the early 1960's things began to change as a powerful anti-government sentiment abounded amongst the citizenry. Government corruption was at a fevered pitch, and this created a clamoring from the general population. In any event, today although private ownership is allowed, it is only for possession in ones home and via restrictions of sales only to certain personal and by special government allowance. It's pretty strict...there may be stricter for certain, yet virtually no one may walk the streets carrying a firearm.

Straw Man says

More unrestricted immigration ==> more inequality ==> more crime.

Immigration doesn't lead to inequality. Wealth disparity is a factor of the country/system itself.

Or a comforting thought for you ...
https://politicalviolenceataglance.org/2012/09/19/income-inequalitys-strange-relationship-to-violence/

"What does this mean for the United States, where income inequality is rising? It suggests that murder rates in poor neighborhoods are likely to rise but that violent rebellion is unlikely. The poor may know that the system is increasingly structured against them. But, given their options, it’s their own communities that will likely pay the highest price."

... the poor/disempowered just kill each other.

Rew says

Immigration doesn't lead to inequality. Wealth disparity is a factor of the country/system itself.

Depends on the kind of immigration. Masses of poor, uneducated people injected into the country are pushing the lower bounds of personal wealth downwards. It's basic math really. Of course, importing several Carlos Slims would increase the gap too.

Rew says

"What does this mean for the United States, where income inequality is rising? It suggests that murder rates in poor neighborhoods are likely to rise but that violent rebellion is unlikely. The poor may know that the system is increasingly structured against them. But, given their options, it’s their own communities that will likely pay the highest price."

... the poor/disempowered just kill each other.

And? Inviting more poor from 3rd world would alleviate the problem exactly how?

Rew says

That a correlation exists, does not mean a causation does as well. In your example we see Japan very nearly attaining the level of income inequality as the U.S., yet has no resemblance in homicide incidents. Some other variables are at play.

Straw Man says

In practice, average citizen cant have a pistol or revolver shooting anything more powerful than .380 ACP or .38 Special and with rifles it's something even more pathetic (rimfire only?).

Can I shoot you with a .38 special and see how pathetic it really is?

sagacious1 says

In any event, today although private ownership is allowed, it is only for possession in ones home and via restrictions of sales only to certain personal and by special government allowance. It's pretty strict...there may be stricter for certain, yet virtually no one may walk the streets carrying a firearm.

You don't know what the restrictions are but you are saying those unknown restrictions must be pretty strict? This is based on what system of logic?

Yes of course, there is a rule that says you can't take your gun out of the house so that means no one ever does. Just like there is a rule here that says you can't have heroin and of course no one ever does.

sagacious1 says

, does not mean a causation does as well. In your example we see Japan very nearly attaining the level of income inequality as the U.S., yet has no resemblance in homicide incidents. Some other variables are at play.

Like a homogeneous society? With all the multiculturalism we have going on here, it's a wonder we aren't a war zone!

They seem to have cherry picked their list. For example, several Gulf States have vastly more inequality, but very low homicide rates. Honduras rocketed to the top of the per capita homicide list after the corporate coup that Secretary of State Clinton claimed credit for having "managed." In the example of Honduras, homicides increased a lot faster than inequality, so maybe that suggests homicides can cause inequality.

That would be consistent with urban experience in America too. If an area gets afflicted with violent crime, e.g. the perennial drug war prison industrial complex revenue maximization model, then poverty follows. Businesses have difficulty operating profitably in war zones, so they can't create many opportunities. The poor get poorer, and the drug war profiteers (e.g. contractors that sell to militarized police and prisons) get richer. Many formerly decent neighborhoods in America have fallen into poverty that way: rising violence drove inequality, not the other way around.

On a related point, much of the violent crime in Mexico results from "drug war" policies made in DC. Merida Initiative, Fast and Furious, Uncle Sam is always buying weapons from American manufacturers and arming one cartel or another. Even if you could legally carry a 0.38, it's no match for cartel operatives with semi-automatic rifles. The "Made in USA" drug war has killed around 100k Mexicans and impoverished many more. When a small business becomes the site of a cartel attack, or has to pay protection money, the legitimate workers and owners get poorer while the cartels and bribe recipients get richer.

Quigley says

Like a homogeneous society? With all the multiculturalism we have going on here, it's a wonder we aren't a war zone!

Central america is pretty homogeneous and gun homicides are very high.

People who commit gun crimes usually aren't the types that follow gun laws. That's why more gun laws don't work.

bob2356 says

Quigley says

Like a homogeneous society? With all the multiculturalism we have going on here, it's a wonder we aren't a war zone!

Central america is pretty homogeneous and gun homicides are very high.

Central America is anything but homogenous....for the area, it has perhaps the highest concentration of separate indigenous people in the world with over 200 different languages. It's simply incorrect to say it's "pretty homogenous". It's also incorrect to suggest Mexico's gun laws are lax, they are anything but lax.

sagacious1 says

Central America is anything but homogenous....for the area, it has perhaps the highest concentration of separate indigenous people in the world with over 200 different languages. It's simply incorrect to say it's "pretty homogenous". It's also incorrect to suggest Mexico's gun laws are lax, they are anything but lax.

Bullshit. Most of the population is mestizos. The percentage of these indigenous groups that are still separately identifiable is very small. I've spent a lot of time in central america and they don't identify by groups very much at all. They identify by how white you are and how well you speak spanish.

So document how hard it is for someone in mexico to buy a gun. You keep saying hard it is based on it's true because I say so. Laws in mexico tend to be more of a casual suggestion anyway. A little mordida makes enforcement very flexible.

BayArea says

People who commit gun crimes usually aren't the types that follow gun laws. That's why more gun laws don't work.

Yes that's the argument but not a reason, and doesn't counter examples which apply gun control successfully, such as Japan. It's entirely possible, that gun violence (and societal violence generally) is a complex multi-faceted problem which involves cultural, political, religious differences and can be manifested such as wealth inequities and other socioeconomic ways. This would explain why a single issue such as gun control may work in some instances, yet woefully inadequate in others. Isn't that fair to contend?

bob2356 says

sagacious1 says

Central America is anything but homogenous....for the area, it has perhaps the highest concentration of separate indigenous people in the world with over 200 different languages. It's simply incorrect to say it's "pretty homogenous". It's also incorrect to suggest Mexico's gun laws are lax, they are anything but lax.

Bullshit. Most of the population is mestizos. The percentage of these indigenous groups that are still separately identifiable is very small. I've spent a lot of time in central america and they don't identify by groups very much at all. They identify by how white you are and how well you speak spanish.

So document how hard it is for someone in mexico to buy a gun. You keep saying hard it is based on it's true because I say so. Laws in mexico tend to be more of a casual suggestion anyway. A little mordida makes enforcement very flexible.

For the sake of brevity, let's assume all you say is completely correct, that is: Mexico's gun laws are not restrictive, and Central America is quite homogenous. Are you suggesting then, that it is the lax gun laws which are contributing to the relatively high level of violence?

How about homogeneous culture then? You can't fail to agree that Japan has this market cornered. Now combine that with the culture agreeing that crime is bad and dishonorable, and nearly everyone in society ascribing to that cultural idea.

Here in America we have everyone from redneck separatists to thug life and BLM who don't subscribe to the idea that crime is bad and dishonorable. Hence, we have far more crime than Japan.

Quigley says

How about homogeneous culture then? You can't fail to agree that Japan has this market cornered. Now combine that with the culture agreeing that crime is bad and dishonorable, and nearly everyone in society ascribing to that cultural idea.

Here in America we have everyone from redneck separatists to thug life and BLM who don't subscribe to the idea that crime is bad and dishonorable. Hence, we have far more crime than Japan.

True, very true.

Here's a startling finding. A book titled "The Color of Crime" released in 2005, then updated in 2015 tracked DOJ/FBI/CDC crime statistics from 1994 to 2015. One of the most interesting things I found in its pages was this.

- In 2014 in New York City, a black was 31 times more likely than a white to be arrested for murder, and a Hispanic was 12.4 times more likely.

- If New York City were all white, the murder rate would drop by 91 percent, the robbery rate by 81 percent, and the shootings rate by 97 percent.
- In an all­-white Chicago, murder would decline 90 percent, rape by 81 percent, and robbery by 90 percent.

America does not have a GUN problem. It has a culture problem. Blacks and Hispanics are being totally destroyed by the Democrat slave plantation which encourages women of color to "marry the government".

Democrat Liberal Hero Barack Obama said this himself, "children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison."

Democrat policies create crime, poverty, and suffering. They need to end.

bob2356 says

Straw Man says

In practice, average citizen cant have a pistol or revolver shooting anything more powerful than .380 ACP or .38 Special and with rifles it's something even more pathetic (rimfire only?).

Can I shoot you with a .38 special and see how pathetic it really is?

Inside your house in Mexico? Why would I enter your shithole?

bob2356 says

sagacious1 says

Central America is anything but homogenous....for the area, it has perhaps the highest concentration of separate indigenous people in the world with over 200 different languages. It's simply incorrect to say it's "pretty homogenous". It's also incorrect to suggest Mexico's gun laws are lax, they are anything but lax.

Bullshit. Most of the population is mestizos. The percentage of these indigenous groups that are still separately identifiable is very small. I've spent a lot of time in central america and they don't identify by groups very much at all. They identify by how white you are and how well you speak spanish.

So document how hard it is for someone in mexico to buy a gun. You keep saying hard it is based on it's true because I say so. Laws in mexico tend to be more of a casual suggestion anyway. A little mordida makes enforcement very flexible.

To these points...Look, as my fellow colorblind Amigos/Amiga's may attest, I've learned people can see facts differently. There's a plethora of legitimate sources available online which will factually cite the restrictive nature of Mexico's gun laws. I highly doubt participating in that exercise will convince you of the color of the sky in your world. Although I imagine seeing the inside of a Mexican prison would be transformative for anyone, and merely possessing ammunition, much less a firearm will get you there pronto. Yet, don't take my word just ask Andrew Tahmooressi and a host of other Americans who have learned this the hard way.

As to the "homogenous" nature of Central America, let's agree to disagree for a similar reason. Mestizo is a term given to people of mixed ethnicity and race (Spanish, European, Indigenous, African and even Oriental) who do not speak an indigenous language but rather Spanish, with various dialects according to region. To say that's "homogenous" is akin to claiming the U.S. is "homogenous" because we're all Americans who speak primarily English. Well, maybe not completely...but I think it's an equal stretch to claim it "homogenous" simply because they are primarily of mixed ethnicity.