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Robert J. Schiller on Why Cities Become Unaffordable

By anonymous following x   2017 Jul 22, 2:59pm 3,323 views   76 comments   watch   quote     share  

http://www.atimes.com/article/why-do-cities-become-unaffordable/

But the barriers may also be political. A huge dose of moderate-income housing construction would have a major impact on affordability. But the existing owners of high-priced homes have little incentive to support such construction, which would diminish the value of their own investment. Indeed, their resistance may be as intractable as a lake’s edge. As a result, municipal governments may be unwilling to grant permits to expand supply.

The new Luddites

Insufficient options for construction can be the driving force behind a rising price-to-income ratio, with home prices increasing over the long term even if the city has acquired no new industry, cachet, or talent. Once the city has run out of available building sites, its continued growth must be accommodated by the departure of lower-income people.

The rise in housing prices relative to income is unlikely to be sudden, not least because speculators, anticipating the change, may bid up prices in advance. They may even overshoot, temporarily pushing the ratios even higher than necessary, creating a bubble and causing unnecessary angst among residents.

But this tendency can be mitigated, if civil society recognizes the importance of preserving lower-income housing. Many of the calls to resist further construction, residents must understand, are being made by special interests; indeed, they amount to a kind of rent seeking by homeowners seeking to boost their own homes’ resale value.

In his recent book The New Urban Crisis, the University of Toronto’s Richard Florida decries this phenomenon, comparing opponents of housing construction to the early-19th-century Luddites who smashed the mechanical looms that were taking their weaving jobs.

In some cases, a city may be on its way to becoming a “great city”, and market forces should be allowed to drive out lower-income people who can’t participate fully in this greatness to make way for those who can. But more often, a city with a high housing-price-to-income ratio is less a “great city” than a supply-constrained one lacking in empathy, humanitarian impulse, and, increasingly, diversity. And that creates fertile ground for dangerous animosities.

#housing

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37 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 24, 9:03pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Dan8267 says

As for doing, I have a day job in which I've done more every week than you have accomplished in your lifetime.

Not that you care what anyone else does, but I literally save lives every day. That is my job. I don't invent anything. I prevent people from dying. As small as the world is, I may have even saved someone you know. You're welcome.

38 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 24, 9:09pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me

Dan is Al Gore???!?!?!?!

Now it is starting to make sense.

Thanks Al. The internet has been used of God to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to literally billions of people and probably millions have been saved because of it. Thank you!

On the other hand, the internet has been used to hack elections (allegedly), take down power grids, promote lies, steal from innocent people, enrich the capitalists who control the bulk of the world's wealth, recruit terrorists, and one day may directly or indirectly literally be used to destroy or enslave people. Gee, you technology sounds kinda dangerous. Are you still so proud? You are literally a worker bee for the capitalists! Nice going!!!

Nearly every technology can be used for good or for destruction. I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

39 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 24, 9:12pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

So you are saying....someone who lives modestly and saves up money to buy a rental property, and keeps repeating it every few years, is not as better off as someone who spends rent money on a mansion living the good life

No. I'm saying that investment and zero-sum games are different things. Investments increase productivity. Zero-sum games don't. Rents are zero-sum games.

It is bad for an economy to have zero-sum games. It is good for an economy to encourage productivity.

Giving people a place to live is productive. Either the capitalist will do it, or your taxes will do it. Someone has to do it. Grow up.

40 Strategist   2017 Jul 24, 9:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me

Ha ha ha. Now I know who to thank for the viruses and malware.

41 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 24, 9:16pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Ever heard of the Internet? You're welcome. That was me and about 10,000 other people like me building it. That alone makes our accomplishes outweigh all the accomplishments of Christianity over the past 2000 years.

One day you will realize how wrong you are. At this moment there are literally people thanking God for Christ, and Christians, and literally even more people regretting their rejection of Christ. What side you choose you will live with in eternity. The internet won't be worth a spec of dust in eternity. You will live or die forever Dan. I hope it is the former.

42 Dan8267   2017 Jul 24, 9:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

PeopleUnited says

Yes, I vote with my labor, I vote with my dollars and not just my words.

We all do that honey. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss ideas for making life better.

PeopleUnited says

The national guard was willing to support the desegregation, the Union army was willing to die to end slavery.

Don't try to cover your mistake by changing your story.

PeopleUnited says

I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

All technologies can be used for good or evil. That does not mean we should stop creating technology.

PeopleUnited says

Giving people a place to live is productive.

No, it's not productive. The house isn't producing anything. And the profit seeking in rent is a drain on the economy like any other zero-sum game. You can't state one benefit to society of zero-sum games.

PeopleUnited says

At this moment there are literally people thanking God for Christ, and Christians, and literally even more people regretting their rejection of Christ.

And it's this kind of batshit crazy bullshit that demonstrates how brainwashed you are.

PeopleUnited says

Dan is Al Gore???!?!?!?!

Al Gore never claimed to had invented the Internet. Do I have to correct you on everything?

However, Al Gore was instrumental in getting legislation passed that allowed the Internet's physical infrastructure to be laid down. For this, he has done more to help the economy than all Republicans in history. So yes, you should be grateful to him.

43 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 25, 5:35am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

Dan8267 says

We all do that honey. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss ideas for making life better.

Sweetheart your ideas won't make life better. That is why they are constantly ridiculed.

PeopleUnited says

The national guard was willing to support the desegregation, the Union army was willing to die to end slavery.

Don't try to cover your mistake by changing your story.

No change. Shooting holes in your silly argument. Surely the vast majority of Americans supported both desegregation and abolishing Slavery. That is why they actually happened. Your ideas on the other hand. Not so much.

PeopleUnited says

I wouldn't brag too much about creating the internet Dan. One day it may be your downfall.

All technologies can be used for good or evil. That does not mean we should stop creating technology.

Inserting a red herring is not a way to prove your point. I simply stated your bragadocious claim on creating the internet isn't anything to brag about.

44 iwog   2017 Jul 25, 6:04am   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

PeopleUnited says

One day you will realize how wrong you are. At this moment there are literally people thanking God for Christ, and Christians, and literally even more people regretting their rejection of Christ. What side you choose you will live with in eternity. The internet won't be worth a spec of dust in eternity. You will live or die forever Dan. I hope it is the former.

The most evil people I have ever encountered have been Christian. This includes a man who is killing himself with drugs and is destroying the lives of his two children in the process, turning them against society and family. He's a sociopath that counts his church pastor as one of his friends, in fact he's so successful in manipulation that he convinced church members to attend a court hearing on his behalf while simultaneously trying to emotionally rip apart a 14-year old. Years of drug use is taking its toll and he's probably just a few years from death by congestive heart failure. His hands and feet and face are swollen like balloons yet he'll still speak every day about salvation and the love of Jesus. He's currently abusing his parents and stealing their money on his way to the grave.

The other case I'm personally familiar with is a very adamant Christian who witnesses constantly to anyone who would listen. He was arrested for hiding in the bushes at one of his fellow church member's homes to peek through the window at his teenage daughter. His loving church expelled him immediately of course. Christians forgive sinners unless they don't.

Contrast this with the very Catholic nation of Chile where religion is a cause for celebration and holiday and they don't give a fuck what you believe. After admitting I was an atheist, my Chilean friends said "That's okay, Jesus died for you too!! Have another cerveza."

Many American Christians use their faith as a weapon. They jack off to beating people over the head with Jesus blackmail. I have no tolerance for evangelicals and I consider them simply another form of societal cancer that is just as dangerous or even more so than feminism or other SJW activism. You people deserve each other.

45 Dan8267   2017 Jul 25, 7:42am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

PeopleUnited says

Sweetheart your ideas won't make life better. That is why they are constantly ridiculed.

I find it hard to respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Christianity makes life better. Again, you think Jesus rose from the dead and Noah had two of each animal on a Bronze Age boat. Who are you to ridicule anything?

PeopleUnited says

I simply stated your bragadocious claim on creating the internet isn't anything to brag about.

The Internet is the greatest invention of mankind, surpassing even the printing press. Every social and political advancement has been preceded by a scientific or technological advancement that made it possible. However, if you think the Internet is so bad, feel free to stop using it.

46 FortWayne   2017 Jul 25, 7:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Now if you were to call me a Christian, that would be very insulting.

I'm pretty sure it would be insulting to all the Christians to have them be compared to you.

47 theoakman   2017 Jul 25, 7:54am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

So if someone builds an apartment building, it's a drain on the economy?

48 Dan8267   2017 Jul 25, 8:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

FortWayne says

I'm pretty sure it would be insulting to all the Christians to have them be compared to you.

Yeah, I'm a heathen because I don't believe a book that says bash babies heads against rocks is an infallible moral authority.

49 Dan8267   2017 Jul 25, 8:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

theoakman says

So if someone builds an apartment building, it's a drain on the economy?

No. The profit seeking of rent is the drain on the economy because money spent on rent or on rising housing prices is money not spent on other goods and services. It discourages production.

It would be far more efficient to have tiered public apartment housing and privately owned houses. Don't tax the buildings. Tax the land. Stop profiteering off higher land prices, which is the only reason housing prices rise, thus discouraging land hording and encouraging efficient use of land and home ownership.

The results would be
1. People would be able to buy a given house for less than a fifth of current prices.
2. People would rent for shorter periods of time.
3. Those who rent would pay less and save more money for house purchases.
4. People would be able to buy houses with little or no mortgages.
5. Fewer people would default on houses.
6. Housing units would not be wasted remaining empty.
7. Crime and squatting in unoccupied units would stop.
8. Decay of abandon or empty houses would stop.
9. The taxpayers would be taxed less for housing assistance. It's cheaper to house people in public apartments than to pay private landlords.
10. Landlords would lose their revenue streams and have to get real jobs that produce wealth instead of taxing people.
11. Home owners won't be able to use their houses as investments or retirement plans.

Out of all of these effects, only one is bad for half the population and only one other is bad for a small portion of the population and foreigners. The good far outweighs the bad.

The bottom line is that an efficient economy has to make infrastructure, including shelter, cheap. Increasing cost of infrastructure without increase effectiveness of that infrastructure is a drag on the economy because it breaks the virtuous cycle of consumption and production, which is what drives all economic productivity and growth. This is true regardless of your politics, your political party, or your culture.

50 Strategist   2017 Jul 25, 9:00am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

iwog says

The most evil people I have ever encountered have been Christian.

You should visit the land of ISIS.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/yazidi-girl-held-captive-isis-reveals-raped-every-day-six-months-113623002.html
A Yazidi girl who escaped from the Islamic State (Isis) has told of how she was raped every day for six months by her captor.

Ekhlas, who was 14 when she imprisoned, tried to escape jihadis in northern Iraq by climbing Mount Sinjar but was caught and held as a sex slave.

51 Dan8267   2017 Jul 25, 9:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

52 errc   2017 Jul 25, 9:06am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

If Capitalism yields Housing shortages, it is heralded as good. After all, housing isn't important. Most people don't need housing

If Socialism yields toilet paper shortage, we must spend countless hours denigrating "Socialism ", because Baby Jesus and the "Virgin" Mary lol

53 Strategist   2017 Jul 25, 10:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

And yet you continue to bash Christianity, when it's Islam you should be bashing. Liberal extremism has no rationality.

54 iwog   2017 Jul 25, 10:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

You should visit the land of ISIS.

There's no real difference between fundamental Christians and ISIS other than most fundamental Christians are lying when they say they have unquestioned faith. Despite what they say, most are agnostic about a lot of their theology. Otherwise logic would lead to conclusions like killing your own children can save them from hell and abortion doctors need to be killed to save lives and murdering rapists who find Jesus in prison will go to heaven while their victims rot in hell.

On the other hand, ISIS members genuinely believe wholeheartedly in their theology and act accordingly. Fundamentalist Christians with the same level of faith as fundamentalist Islam would act like Christians in the inquisition and not the mellow Americans they usually are today.

55 Strategist   2017 Jul 25, 11:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

iwog says

Strategist says

You should visit the land of ISIS.

There's no real difference between fundamental Christians and ISIS other than most fundamental Christians are lying when they say they have unquestioned faith. Despite what they say, most are agnostic about a lot of their theology. Otherwise logic would lead to conclusions like killing your own children can save them from hell and abortion doctors need to be killed to save lives and murdering rapists who find Jesus in prison will go to heaven while their victims rot in hell.

On the other hand, ISIS members genuinely believe wholeheartedly in their theology and act accordingly. Fundamentalist Christians with the same level of faith as fundamentalist Islam would act like Christians in the inquisition and not the mellow Americans they usually are today.

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do. The Christians of today don't burn witches, keep slaves, or bash the head of babies on rocks. The Muslims of today, do all those horrible things and more. So why keep attacking Christians based on what happened in the past, when we have Muslims who need to be curtailed today.
I don't get it. This is very perplexing. What is the rationality behind this? I really would like to know.

56 iwog   2017 Jul 25, 11:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do. The Christians of today don't burn witches, keep slaves, or bash the head of babies on rocks. The Muslims of today, do all those horrible things and more. So why keep attacking Christians based on what happened in the past, when we have Muslims who need to be curtailed today.

I don't get it. This is very perplexing. What is the rationality behind this? I really would like to know.

I agree with you but it's entirely besides the point.

America's fundamentalists have no traction and times are good so they don't act like Islamic lunatics. However the theology in the bible remains unchanged. It could bring us back to the Dark Ages if weaponized.

Anyway I see no statistical redeeming qualities in Christianity. The Mormons seem to be running things smoothly and moderate Christians represent the majority of Americans, but deeply religious people tend to be sociopaths IMO.

57 someone else   2017 Jul 26, 12:29pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote        

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.
If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

58 Strategist   2017 Jul 26, 1:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

1 says

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.

If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

The Bible OK's having slaves, but no one follows this because secular laws controls religion in America. Islam too MUST be put under secular control.
Just look at this unbelievable practice:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035
Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

59 Dan8267   2017 Jul 26, 2:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

81606 says

Dan8267 says

Islam today is what Christianity was for 80% of its existence.

And yet you continue to bash Christianity, when it's Islam you should be bashing. Liberal extremism has no rationality.

It's perfectly rational. Bashing the two religions are not mutually exclusive.

You continue to foolishly believe that Christianity somehow moderates Islam or reduces its power. It does not. Christianity enables Islam by providing an environment in which irrationality can flourish.

Fighting one irrationality with another is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's just plain stupid. The only way to defeat irrationality is with rationality.

60 Dan8267   2017 Jul 26, 2:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

1 says

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

Except for the parts of Christianity that promote
- rape
- slavery
- infanticide
- genocide

Both testaments are full of contradictions and hypocrisies.

Thinks about it. Christianity was as evil as Islam for a good 1600 years. What exactly were the additions to the Bible in the past 400 years that changed that?

It's not that Christianity has a better mythology than Islam. It's that Christian faith today is so much weaker than Islamic faith. Change that, and Christianity will revert to its Dark Age behavior.

61 Dan8267   2017 Jul 26, 2:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

81606 says

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035

Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

62 Strategist   2017 Jul 26, 3:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

8267 says

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

Huh? I want to see the heads of criminals roll. These wackos rape a perfectly innocent girl for the crimes of someone else. There is no comparison.

64 someone else   2017 Jul 26, 5:27pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

14882 says

Many of the calls to resist further construction, residents must understand, are being made by special interests; indeed, they amount to a kind of rent seeking by homeowners seeking to boost their own homes’ resale value.

This is the most plausible explanation.

Current owners have a huge motive to defeat the free market and restrict supply simply to raise the value of what they already own.

65 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 6:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

1 says

14882 says

Many of the calls to resist further construction, residents must understand, are being made by special interests; indeed, they amount to a kind of rent seeking by homeowners seeking to boost their own homes’ resale value.

This is the most plausible explanation.

Current owners have a huge motive to defeat the free market and restrict supply simply to raise the value of what they already own.

But in a free market all parties are able to act in their own self interest (and to make self destructive choices for that matter, but the crux of a free market is choice, free of coercion or threat of violence). In places where government has the power to enact laws that restrict supply there will always be special interests who seek to do so. The best solution is to NOT give government the power to restrict supply.

66 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 6:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

1 says

81606 says

What people believe, think, wish, or say is largely irrelevant. What matters is what they do.

I think that what people do does follow from what they believe and say.

The Koran says that all non-Muslims are unclean and disgusting and it's OK to enslave or kill them if they continue to reject Islam.

If they repent and accept Islam, then they must also turn and enslave or kill their unclean disgusting non-Muslim friends and relatives, etc.

This is extremely different from the Christian message of "love your neighbor as yourself" without regard to his religion.

And these messages have real-world consequences.

1 is absolutely correct. Your beliefs motivate your actions.

The teachings of Christ to love your neighbor as yourself, and the example He set of obedience to His father, and an innocent sacrificing Himself for the guilty and condemned sinners is in stark contrast to all the false gods. Especially the false moon "god" and the violent "prophet" puppet master.

The example of Jesus is one of spotless perfection. Dan can condemn Christians till the day he meets Christ, but he cannot say a single negative thing about Jesus that isn't a lie.

67 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 6:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

8267 says

81606 says

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40731035


Pakistan village council orders 'revenge rape' of girl

Strategist, this sounds exactly like your vengeance based view of law and order. Make people suffer for the crimes they committed (or are simply accused of). What better way to make someone suffer than making those they love suffer?

This is exactly why I've been telling you for years that you cannot serve both justice and vengeance. They are mutually exclusive goals.

Well said.

But, justice sometimes look like vengeance, and vengeance is often portrayed as justice. Tyrants exercise vengeance under the guise of justice. America's foundation was a plea to avoid vengeance (or justice depending on your perspective).

68 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 6:57pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

8267 says

Christianity enables Islam by providing an environment in which irrationality can flourish.

Not exactly.

In fact, Christianity is the anti-Islam. You will see that some day, even if you can't see it now.

Your argument can be easily corrected...

Earth enables humans by providing an environment in which irrationality can flourish.

There, fixed it for you. And you 8267 while clearly an intelligent person, are also a prime example of how even intelligence does not help people avoid irrationality.

69 FortWayne   2017 Jul 26, 6:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Liberal policies result in catastrophe

70 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 7:03pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote        

8290 says

Liberal policies result in catastrophe

Trying to control people through force (as conservatives like Dan advocate) rather than motivating them by truth and love is what results in catastrophe.

71 FortWayne   2017 Jul 26, 7:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan isn't conservative2192 says

8290 says

Liberal policies result in catastrophe

Trying to control people through force (as conservatives like Dan advocate) rather than motivating them by truth and love is what results in catastrophe.

72 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 7:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

http://isaacmorehouse.com/2015/06/07/liberal-collectivism-conservative-collectivism-and-the-libertarian-answer/

Perhaps not in the literal sense. But he has so much in common with them and their tactics and willingness to use force to achieve their goals.

8290 says

Dan isn't conservative2192 says

8290 says

Liberal policies result in catastrophe

Trying to control people through force (as conservatives like Dan advocate) rather than motivating them by truth and love is what results in catastrophe.

73 FortWayne   2017 Jul 26, 8:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

2192 says

Perhaps not in the literal sense. But he has so much in common with them and their tactics and willingness to use force to achieve their goals.

That's not a "conservative" value. That's just human on both sides. Dan is unique mixture of leftism and communism.

74 PeopleUnited   2017 Jul 26, 9:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote        

8290 says

2192 says

Perhaps not in the literal sense. But he has so much in common with them and their tactics and willingness to use force to achieve their goals.

That's not a "conservative" value. That's just human on both sides. Dan is unique mixture of leftism and communism.

Your viewpoint is colored by your indoctrination that "conservative" = good and "liberal" = bad. That is a false dichotomy perpetuated by the masters of manipulation who seek to divide the people in order to better control us all.

The fact of the matter is that you, me and Dan (who some might describe as conservative, libertarian and liberal respectively) have more in common than not. Not the least of which is the belief that we are right and everyone else is wrong or at least a half a bubble off. But aside from that personal pride and arrogance, we also all believe in many of the same basic values. We might differ on how to achieve those results but by and large we do all desire the same results. Our debates are by and large based on semantics (even now you want to argue the definition of "conservative") and the methods for achieving the same goals.

But again the reason I call Dan a conservative is that he has proposed numerous times, the use of force to achieve his goals. That is what conservatism means to me. Now I know that is not the traditional view of conservatism, but it is actually in practice what conservatives do when they are in power. They actively prevent change, by force if necessary. Liberals do the same thing to achieve change, by force if necessary. They are both tyrants.

Now let me explain more why the liberal/conservative is a false dichotomy in case you still don't see it. I am anti-abortion, a conservative value. I don't think any woman should choose abortion and I don't think any other human being should help to kill a baby once it is implanted in a woman's uterus. The killing of a baby in the womb is a loss, it is a loss of life for the unborn child, it is also a loss for the community and the people who should have had the opportunity to live and work together with the child that was murdered. But that being said, I don't want to live in a surveillance state where the government dictates what my doctor can and can't do, where the government doesn't allow people the right to privacy, a liberal philosophy. And for that reason I don't think we want to live in a world where the government is looking inside uteruses and sending people to prison. That is tyranny. Abortion is murder, but a government that can look inside a uterus is a tyrannical government. It is nobody's business what you do with your own body, and it is nobody's business if you are pregnant or not. See how it is a false dichotomy? In my opinion we need to value the right to privacy above the desire to prevent a murder. I stand in opposition to murder, but I am even more so standing in opposition of a tyrannical government.

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