Bitcoin and Crypto-currency
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Bitcoin and Crypto-currency

By anonymous following x   2017 Nov 5, 3:36pm 1,255 views   60 comments   watch   quote     share    


#investing

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.

What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.

For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?

Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?

I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.

At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.

Thanks guys!

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21   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 7:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BTW, if you plan on investing (some say gambling) in cryptocurrency its recommended to store them on a hardware wallet (trezor, nano etc.). Hackers wont be able to access your currency as it's stored offline. " Trezor is an isolated environment for offline transaction signing and using a small display you can visually verify the transaction contents"
22   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 9:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

So this isn’t like the stock market where it’s Mon-Fri 6am-1pm west coast time... rather it’s 24hrs per day? 365 days per year?
23   FortWayne   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 9:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayAreaObserver says
You have the constant never ending verdicts that Bitcoin etc. is a scam, bubble, etc. and then you have some like this.

Why Bitcoin's Price Will Be Valued At $150,000 By The End Of 2018, According To An Expert. 2017 may be the last year middle-class people will still be able to afford to buy and hold on to a few bitcoins.

Growth in 2017 Hit 1000 Percent

Bitcoin started the year valued at $963 dollars each and has seen a staggering 1000 percent growth within the last 11 months. To put that into perspective, a $1000-dollar investment in Bitcoin is now worth more than $10,000. As an example, an investment in January equivalent to the price of an iPhone 7 could now buy you 10 of the iPhone X. The reason behind the staggering growth is the money that has been flowing into cryptocurrencies.

Demand Is Spiking at Rapid Speed

Coinbase, the San Francisco-bed Bitcoin exchange and the largest in the U.S., has more than 12 million user accounts and is estimate...


If it's such a guarantee, he wouldn't be telling you to buy it. He'd be buying it himself.

I'm just telling you how I see those things... reminds me of that 2006 (buy now or be priced out forever thing)

But I don't understand Bitcoins, all I know is that I can't get a hamburger with it or fill up my car, so seems rather strange that people are buying these things.
24   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 10:10pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I made a small investment in bitcoin via coinbase, mostly to force myself to get familiar with it and learn how it works.

I plan to buy a small position in litecoin and ethereum too.
25   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 7, 4:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

FortWayne,

"But I don't understand Bitcoins, all I know is that I can't get a hamburger with it or fill up my car, so seems rather strange that people are buying these things."

Apparently, McDonalds is planning to accept Bitcoins within the next 1-2 years:
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogeraitken/2017/11/29/bitcoin-odds-on-to-be-accepted-by-mcdonalds-at-end-of-2018-but-could-it-break-20000/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

Maybe interesting as well (Overstock, Dish Network, Microsoft, Intuit, PayPal are accepting Bitcoins as well)
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/06/5-brand-name-businesses-that-currently-accept-bitc.aspx
26   HEYYOU   ignore (4)   2017 Dec 7, 9:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Bitcoin losers should be in stocks,you'll never lose.
27   KimJongUn   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 7, 9:56am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

There was another exchange hack yesterday. $70M worth of bitcoins stolen.
28   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 12:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Where do you guys buy from? I've been looking at coinbase.com, but man, they want a LOT of personal information.
29   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 2:53pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I use Coinbase and Binance. Coinbase is a legit exchange. I dont mind that they inquire a ton of information to verify you before they let you trade. It was annoying though to get set up. I also like that Coinbase does not add Cryptocurrencies lightly. They have strict criteria for all their procedures. Makes me trust them more.

Binance is good for getting set up quickly (it took only a few hours to get verified) AND they have a ton of cryptocurrencies you can trade there. I set up an account with Binance just so I can get in early with IOTA before it starts taking off. Binance is a Chinese based company and does not let you use ACH transactions. You can wire the funds (with a minimum of 10k USD) though. However, you can transfer your Ethererum, Litecoin or Bitcoin from Coinbase to Binance and buy by exchanging them against other cryptos. that's how I do it on Binance and so far so good.

I'd def. go with Coinbase and depending on if you want to buy Cryptos other than the three ones I mentioned above you could consider Binance or Bittrex.
30   goat   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 11:22pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.
31   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:02am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

goat says
Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.


I had some problems with the identity verification and had to try to register several times before it went through successfully.

When you sign up for Coinbase you will notice that their system is very easy to use and transactions are simple. But the Coinbase service isn’t very powerful. For example, you can’t set limit and stop orders.

The good news is that Coinbase is linked to GDAX. After you have a Coinbase account, you can then sign up for GDAX. GDAX is owned by Coinbase and once you fund your Coinbase account it will link to GDAX.

With GDAX you can set limit and stop orders. GDAX also allows you to buy and sell without fees.
32   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Does anyone know if there are some legitimate US based companies that will allow me to buy IOTA?
33   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:08am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Here is a primitive newbie question (shows you im just getting started with Bitcoin):

Now that I own Bitcoin through Coinbase, how would I go about using my Bitcoins for retail transactions if I wanted?
34   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Newbie123 says
BTW, if you plan on investing (some say gambling) in cryptocurrency its recommended to store them on a hardware wallet (trezor, nano etc.). Hackers wont be able to access your currency as it's stored offline. " Trezor is an isolated environment for offline transaction signing and using a small display you can visually verify the transaction contents"


Thank you for all your feedback, you’ve been very helpful.

I have one question about the hardware wallet. Since my ownership of Bitcoin is with Coinbase/GDAX, I have my Bitcoin security entirely with them and their servers.

Where (and how) would I begin protecting my position with Coinbase with a hardware wallet?
35   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 9, 9:49am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

It is a mathematical given that bitcoin on its current exponential trajectory will end in tears for may who buy in late, since it exhibits the classical ponzi/pyramid-scheme pattern. Nothing can go up in value like this without either being a ponzi scheme or some real unique material in incredibly high demand and depleting fast. Not saying it isn't here to stay as a valid form of payment and that much of the wealth from other forms of payment will be redistributed onto bitcoin, but at some point the musical chairs will stop and cause those who bought in late in the ponzi game to lose a lot of money.
36   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 10:54am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
Does anyone know if there are some legitimate US based companies that will allow me to buy IOTA?


Hi BayArea,

unfortunately, there is no US based company that lets you buy IOTA as of today :( :(
Binance seems to be the only option for now. If you could buy IOTA via Binance and transfer to a hardware wallet it would not be a big issue IMO. However, there is no hardware wallet that supports IOTA at the moment....IOTA is just in its very early stages which makes it riskier to buy/store/secure. That's probably the reason why its under 5 dollars a MIOTA. I am willing to take that risk.
37   komputodo   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:05am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

It's not investing, it's gambling.
38   HEYYOU   ignore (4)   2017 Dec 9, 11:05am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

mell says
ponzi scheme

How dare you say that to economic fiat geniuses. lol

If or when it collapses the losers will get what they deserve.
The few winners will be laughing their asses off at the mass of losers.
How many will end up in the bottom 10%?

Thread posted 11/05/2017.
Today,12/9/2017. Still virtual FIAT.
Nothing special. The gov't's been printing fiat for years & the banks create it out of thin air.
I put a penny in my pocket when I remove it it will be $Millions.
39   HEYYOU   ignore (4)   2017 Dec 9, 11:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Public relations-
Get people to buy,not because they need it,or it makes sense,but because it will make them feel better.
Translation- "A sucker born every minute."
40   komputodo   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

HEYYOU says
How many will end up in the bottom 10%?


Ummm...., about 10% of the buyers.
41   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
I have one question about the hardware wallet. Since my ownership of Bitcoin is with Coinbase/GDAX, I have my Bitcoin security entirely with them and their servers.

Where (and how) would I begin protecting my position with Coinbase with a hardware wallet?

I bought Trezor on Amazon (because of the good reviews and because this hardware wallet has a screen). There are great Youtube videos to set up the Trezor and how to use it. Everytime I transfer bitcoins/litecoins or Ethereum to Trezor I test it with a very low value to make sure it works. It's free to transfer cryptos to Trezor and with Litecoin the transactions are almost instantly. Trezor will charge you a small fee when you transfer the coins back to an exchange. Lately, I experienced that the bitcoin transactions are delayed (which they will tell you ahead of time on Coinbase). Its just a bit of an uneasy feeling transferring bitcoins and having to wait a few hours until it shows up in your Trezor.

Having the coins on a hardware wallet makes me feel much better than having it on my harddrive or coinbase server. If your Trezor gets stolen or lost you can recover the coins via security keys.

My recommendation:
1) buy Trezor or Nano Ledger from Amazon or even better on their official website (I bought from Amazon but on their official website its cheaper > https://trezor.io/) For me it seemed strange that the official Trezor website ended in .IO. I did some research and it is legit. (e.g. on Wikipedia the same website is referenced for Trezor and Trezor warns on their Twitter site of scam websites etc.)
2) watch a few Youtube videos on how to get set up or follow the instructions once the wallet arrived ( I am more of a visual learner and love these youtube videos)
3) transfer 0.01 Ether/Bitcoin or litecoin to the hardware wallet to give you piece of mind that the transaction worked fine.
4) transfer the remaining coins.


Regarding the videos. I watched several to make sure I get the same info from several sources. This is one of the videos i watched/followed:

He got 105k views and 1k likes (22 dislike)
42   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:33am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

goat says
Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.


Yeah. I remember getting set up wasnt' quick/easy. In their defense I would say that they have just grown way above their own expectation.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-user-base-surges-coinbase-adds-1-mln-users-in-1-month

A couple of days ago I received an email from GDX/Coinbase saying:

" (...) We’re continuing to invest heavily to scale our platform

Over the course of this year we have invested significant resources to increase trading capacity on our platform and maintain availability of our service. We have increased the size of our support team by 640% and launched phone support in September. We have also invested heavily in our infrastructure and have increased the number of transactions we are processing during peak hours by over 40x. (...)"
43   Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 1:07pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-08/the-bitcoin-whales-1-000-people-who-own-40-percent-of-the-market
Holders of large amounts of bitcoin are often known as whales. And they’re becoming a worry for investors. They can send prices plummeting by selling even a portion of their holdings. And those sales are more probable now that the cryptocurrency is up nearly twelvefold from the beginning of the year.
About 40 percent of bitcoin is held by perhaps 1,000 users; at current prices, each may want to sell about half of his or her holdings, says Aaron Brown, former managing director and head of financial markets research at AQR Capital Management. (Brown is a contributor to the Bloomberg Prophets online column.) What’s more, the whales can coordinate their moves or preview them to a select few. Many of the large owners have known one another for years and stuck by bitcoin through the early days when it was derided, and they can potentially band together to tank or prop up the market.
44   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 10, 6:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
Here is a primitive newbie question (shows you im just getting started with Bitcoin):

Now that I own Bitcoin through Coinbase, how would I go about using my Bitcoins for retail transactions if I wanted?


Hey BayArea,
There is some good info on Coinbase on how to spend your bitcoins:
https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/1834716-where-can-i-spend-bitcoins-
Coinbase also links the site http://spendbitcoins.com/ where you can search for categories to spend your coins on.

I read some rumors that Amazon will accept Bitcoin in the future (1-2 years) but who knows. In the meantime you can go to gyft.com and buy Amazon giftcards with Bitcoins (or giftcards for other department stores, etc.)

My strategy has been to accumulate crypto coins and watch them rise. At this point, its more fun to watch them skyrocket instead of spending them or converting them to cash.
46   anon_5965f   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 10, 7:31pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Is Bitcoin a Bubble or is it the Pin that Pops the Bubble?

https://www.stacksilvergetgoldbuybitcoin.com/blog/bitcoinbubble
47   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 12:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

For Coinbase users:

I’m getting estimates of like 7-10days for my funds to clear from Chase bank. Has anyone experienced this?

And why such low weekly limits? $5k-7.5k depending on what ID info I share.

Seems pretty Mickey Mouse. Do you want my money or not?
48   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 3:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
For Coinbase users:

I’m getting estimates of like 7-10days for my funds to clear from Chase bank. Has anyone experienced this?

And why such low weekly limits? $5k-7.5k depending on what ID info I share.

Seems pretty Mickey Mouse. Do you want my money or not?


BayArea,
Coinbase will increase your limits very quickly after the first few trades.

Regarding the deposit time. This has been very frustrating for me at the beginning.

If you want to lock in the price you can buy via ACH (1.49%). Yes, it will still take 5-7 days until the assets show up in your account but at least you locked the price.
In case you want to see the coins instantly you can buy them via debit/credit card which costs you 3.99%.
Depositing the funds and waiting 5-7 days just so you can buy without paying fees can make sense but often I choose to lock the price. (I got burned at one point)
The window of Bitcoin correcting downs seems very short.

Just FYI.....i recently signed up for the chinese exchange Binance and while the signup process was easy and fast I had already a bad experience....Locking back I am quite happy with Coinbase/GDAX. Really hope they will add more assets in the next few months.
49   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 3:32pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Made my first Lite Coin purchase today. I plan on purchasing more as well as Ether in the coming weeks.

I hate the $750 max/weekly purchase for Coinbase. Is there a way to up it?
50   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 3:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

joshuatrio says
Made my first Lite Coin purchase today. I plan on purchasing more as well as Ether in the coming weeks.

I hate the $750 max/weekly purchase for Coinbase. Is there a way to up it?


Nice! Litecoin is on a roll!
They will increase your limits very shortly after your first trades.
51   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 11, 3:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Bitcoin, PSHAW! All the smart money is in tulips.
52   anon_bba47   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 3:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
why such low weekly limits? $5k-7.5k depending on what ID info I share.


This is ostensibly to help prevent a massive sell off by one (or a few) people, which would crash the value of the crypto in question. Obviously, it can only prevent it so much... If everyone decides to cash out at the same time, it will be a classic run-on-the-bank scenario.

Fill disclosure- I got in on BTC about 2 years ago, moved it all over to Litecoin about 6 months ago, and as of this month, I'm out. I'm happy with my gains, but it's obvious that this will not end well for most people. People were saying that tech stock values were limitless in 1999. People were saying that real estate values were limitless in 2007. And now this. If you get in now, be prepared to move fast. Perhaps there's another year or two of growth, but a correction is inevitable, and it will hurt. A lot.
53   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 11, 3:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

BayArea says
I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.


What we can say now is Bitcoin is either the most surprising technical innovation ever, or the easier to spot bubble ever.
54   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 11, 3:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

When bubbles go vertical btw, it's not a good sign.
55   RC2006   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 4:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

My buddy is sitting on a bunch of bitcoins from when it started, he was even accepting them as payment for hair cuts when they were like 10-20$. He is still holding onto them, I don't think I would hold them at these amounts. I probably would have got out when it hit 1k, Seems like a bubble to me.
56   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 11, 4:47pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

RC2006 says
He is still holding onto them

He'll no doubt still be hanging on to them when they are back to $20.
57   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 11, 4:48pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Is there a way to short this thing?
58   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 5:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Heraclitusstudent says
Is there a way to short this thing?


Yes, they have bitcoin futures now. A few bitcoin critics said that this will drop the price of Bitcoin one the futures will come online. The CBOE futures are at 18k right now. Contracts expire in January. Apparently, the institutional money is bullish on BTC.
59   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 5:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_bba47 says
Fill disclosure- I got in on BTC about 2 years ago, moved it all over to Litecoin about 6 months ago, and as of this month, I'm out. I'm happy with my gains, but it's obvious that this will not end well for most people. People were saying that tech stock values were limitless in 1999. People were saying that real estate values were limitless in 2007. And now this. If you get in now, be prepared to move fast. Perhaps there's another year or two of growth, but a correction is inevitable, and it will hurt. A lot.

I agree. It wont go on forever. I also think there is probably 2 year left at least. The dot com bubble went mainstream, the housing bubble in 07 was mainstream but Cryptocurrency is not mainstream yet. Its on a fast track but its not there yet.
60   anon_02048   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 11, 7:35pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Newbie123 says
anon_bba47 says
I also think there is probably 2 year left at least. The dot com bubble went mainstream, the housing bubble in 07 was mainstream but Cryptocurrency is not mainstream yet. Its on a fast track but its not there yet.


Perhaps. It's impossible to really tell. The problem is that these crypto exchanges move so much faster than those other two bubbles- the stock market of the late 90's didn't have a markedly significant amount of high frequency trading going on, and real estate transactions simply move slower by their very nature... But crypto exchanges? They're open 24-7 non-stop, and still mostly unregulated. You could go to sleep broke and wake up a millionaire- or vice versa. The odds of catastrophic flash crashes are so, so much higher. It's literally a ticking time bomb at this point.

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