Bitcoin and Crypto-currency
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Bitcoin and Crypto-currency

By BayArea following x   2017 Nov 5, 3:36pm 8,139 views   261 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


#investing

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.

What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.

For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?

Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?

I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.

At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.

Thanks guys!

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222   anon_fad35   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 11, 9:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Wake me up when price goes back to $9k again.
223   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 11, 11:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

First we go back down to 6k. We need that confirmation one more time. Big buy signal, volume will come in and from there it will be moooooning. Get ready for the fun!
224   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 13, 10:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_fad35 says
Wake me up when price goes back to $9k again.


What do you mean by back? Hits $9k or goes above it? Basically hit that yesterday, about $90 short. What's your move when that happens? We really need to know when to wake you up so we can find out how you played BTC.
225   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 14, 6:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Wookie, I am guessing he is referring to a point of resistance. This is about technical analysis/market sentiment. If resistance levels are broken they become support levels. 9k was a heavy point of resistance and breaking it is signaling a bullish trend. We need to bounce off the 9k a couple times to confirm the new support levels.
It’s fun to wake up and see your coins go up. It’s a great time to buy now before the next bull run starts.
226   anon_d8885   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 14, 3:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Oh yea, just broke 9400! Hope we start a bull run soon. If we can hold up above 9,5k the next few days we will probably see volume come back and kick off the next bull run
228   anon_8f5d0   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 15, 2:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Big daddy hit 10k again! Up and up we go!
229   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 8:02am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”
230   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 9:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/964287117466640389
Ellen DeGeneres introduces Bitcoin to millions of viewers. Thank you Ellen!
231   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 10:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_3a1a3 says
Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”


Still here. Markets do fluctuate. My opinion hasn't changed.
232   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 16, 11:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...
234   anon_ec6de   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 11:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I think it’s very possible that it will
Go down hard one more timeduring this bear market/correction. I can’t see it testing less than 5-6k though. Too much demand. What ever happens, I am ready to buy more when it retraces.
235   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 11:40am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_2fbc3 says
Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...


Thanks for giving what appears to be a solid, intelligent response. I don't necessarily grasp all the jargon (I recognize it), but it make sense somewhat.

Now BTC bulls, give me something like this. IMO I haven't seen anyone explain why they think this will continue to go up. Tell me what if I buy one coin, with my American dollars at $10k today, it will be worth $15k in say 6 months?

The pinkies already exist. I don't see how BTC is much different. Just with a whole hell of a lot less info to research on it or know who holds it.

As usual, don't take this as investment advice. There is a risk of loss.
236   anon_ec6de   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 12:31pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Why tell you? It’s more fun investing in BTC, buying the dip and seeing it moon while people tell you how it’s a Ponzi and goes to zero! Put your ten bucks in stocks and get excited about 2-5% increases!
237   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 12:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      



Quite a bumpy ride.
238   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 16, 1:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

WookieMan the main factor most seem to ignore is the well capitalized futures market full of fat cats who are staring at the 170bil setting there to be claimed, which before futures existed there was no practical or effective way to short so price discovery has been skewed big time.... Most of the crypto market is populated with very new ppl who have never traded anything except BTC which is OTC and the risk are penny stock like in nature. I am a believer in the tech however the noob pool needs cleaning they are so out of their league and the fat cats are not going to let them keep that easy money imo...
239   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 2:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_ec6de says
It’s more fun investing in BTC


Trading. It's called trading. Which is fine, make money. Explain the investment portion? I've always understood the trading aspect. Most people do.

anon_ec6de says
Put your ten bucks in stocks and get excited about 2-5% increases!


Try this:

$18,500 into a 401K individually (tax free. compounding.)

$6,900 into a HSA family plan (tax free. compounding & can pay for medical expenses tax free)

$5,500 into a Roth (if you can. tax free withdrawls at retirement)

If I didn't do the first two (can't do the 3rd) and invested in BTC instead, I'd be pissing away 33% immediately if you factor in my top end tax bracket for 2017. So I've already pissed and dumped shit all over the 2-5% gains you mention. That 33% gain is immediately invested along with the rest of the money. That money then compounds over time in a vehicle that has consistently put out 7% returns over the long term. And I don't have to waste time "watching" it until I'm near my retirement years unlike having to watch BTC daily at minimum.

Please explain how BTC will do better than this? You can't. It's not possible. Wish you luck in your trading.
240   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 2:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_2fbc3 says
I am a believer in the tech however the noob pool needs cleaning they are so out of their league and the fat cats are not going to let them keep that easy money imo...


I honestly don't understand the tech, so I'm showing my bias I suppose. I 100% believe there's massive manipulation in this market. I don't think anyone has the slightest clue who holds what and how much. Factor in the potential for the stolen coins (likely would be traded) or completely lost coins and it's the wild west. And yes, people made a shit load of money in the wild west.

I'm happy with my model for retirement. I have no interest in getting rich quick even though that sounds backward. I'm getting rich quicker than most, which is fine by me.
241   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 7:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Nice note from one of your trusted BTC exchanges, Coinbase:

Dear Valued Customer,

Over the last two days, some customers who recently purchased digital currency with a Visa credit or debit card may have seen duplicate transactions posted to their cardholder accounts.

This issue was not caused by Coinbase. Please see our blog post for additional detail (also copied below).

Recommended steps to follow

Check your statement — Please check your bank statement to ensure that you have not received duplicate charges. If duplicate charges have appeared, your bank should automatically post a refund within the next few days
Contact your bank — If duplicate charges have not been refunded and/or if you have received other related charges (e.g., overdraft fees), please reach out to your bank to request that these charges be refunded
Contact Coinbase Support — If your bank fails to refund these charges, please follow up with Coinbase Support early next week

Though we did not initiate these charges, we are deeply sorry for any inconvenience or hardship this has caused.

Thank you for being a customer.

Regards,

The Coinbase Team

-------------

The following is a joint statement from Visa and Worldpay:

Over the last two days, some customers who used a credit or debit card at Coinbase may have seen duplicate transactions posted to their cardholder accounts.

This issue was not caused by Coinbase.

Worldpay and Coinbase have been working with Visa and Visa issuing banks to ensure that the duplicate transactions have been reversed and appropriate credits have been posted to cardholder accounts. All reversal transactions have now been issued, and should appear on customers’ credit card and debit card accounts within the next few days. We believe the majority of these reversals have already posted to accounts. If you continue to have problems with your credit or debit card account after this reversal period, including issues relating to card fees or charges, we encourage you to contact your card issuing bank.

We deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused customers.


Yes, this bear has a coinbase account. Why no source link to Visa with their statement? Go to the blog, no link to Visa making a statement either? You trust these companies with your "investment?" I don't.
242   CBOEtrader   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 16, 8:42pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

WookieMan says
I have no interest in getting rich quick even though that sounds backward.


Sounds logical to me.

BTC is one helluva conundrum. It's backed by nothing, but neither is any currency.

The BTC technology would make it preferable to currencies, IF the risk problems could be fixed. However, the dollar would most likely need to die first.

This is a super high risk, potentially high reward gamble that I'm only willing to make for a few thousand $$ at a time.

Sink your retirement into this fiat currency at your own peril. I hope the guy who goes all in comes back and brags about his 100 million gain... I still can't "invest" in bitcoin.

I've been told investing in block chain tech firms may be a nice move though I haven't yet done research on any.
243   anon_e5361   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 9:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Wookie,
“Please explain how BTC will do better than this? You can't. It's not possible. ”

You are comparing your 33% retirement thingy with crypto? That’s cute. Litecoin, ethereum and many other made over 7000% last year. That’s not just another planet it’s another universe. Of course I put money in my 401k and my company matches it. You can do both, save in your 401k and make a killing with crypto.
244   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 9:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I'm impressed with the thought put into the design of Bitcoin, and that it's truly outside of the control of any government. But I'm not sure if the market for conversion to/from dollars is being manipulated. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out it is.
245   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 6:59am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees. Nobody ever recommended to buy crypto on a debit or credit card. You can buy cryptos instantly by initiating a bank transfer through coinbase. I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos. Every market has those people. While coinbase is not perfect it’s a legit exchange.
246   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 10:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_3a1a3 says
Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees.


Yeah, I didn’t buy anything. Just doing research. As I’ve mentioned multiple times here I know nothing about this stuff. Would NEVER put anything like this on a credit card. I don’t believe a lot of people here and elsewhere really know what they’re doing either outside of just trading this. I can make a lot of money at a casino, but wouldn’t call it investing, would you? Not sure how crypto is different.

Which again, go for it. I don’t care. I like casinos occasionally. We have comments here though pointing out 7,000% gains. Apparently this stuff just never goes down and I’m missing out on my consistent 7,000% gain per year. Not you particularly, but it’s astounding how irrational people can become about making easy money.

My question stands though, Coinbase blames it on Visa yet they wouldn’t source Visa saying it? Seems strange. I’d have zero faith in any of these “exchanges” but hey, your money, not mine.

Just let me know what you exchange your crypto for when you have massive gains. I’m sure you’ll just hold it and buy stuff, right? I mean it’s a currency and all. Very stable one at that. Please tell me you won’t convert them to US $’s? Cause if you do that, the fatal flaw of crypto is staring you right in the face. The rush to the exits is coming. Just be ready.
247   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 6:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Wookie, you are over thinking. the question to ask is which coin is going to moooon next? ;)
248   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 7:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_3a1a3 says
Wookie, you are over thinking


I know.
249   anon_3a1a3   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 18, 7:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

“I’d have zero faith in any of these exchanges”.
Similiar here. Most traders advise not to leave money (usd or crypto) on the exchange and move your crypto to a offline hardware wallet (trezor or ledger nano s) Your token are on the block chain but your private keys to access your currency are safe on a offline hardware wallet. Most traders who own a significant value of crypto, store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.
250   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Feb 18, 8:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_3a1a3 says
I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.


The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.
251   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Feb 18, 8:39am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_3a1a3 says
store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.


Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).

??????????????
252   anon_62010   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 18, 2:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Sniper says
anon_3a1a3 says
store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.


Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).



I agree to some extend. There are def. people who think/want Cryptocurrency to replace our current monetar system and take over. However, I think over the years crypto fans realize you need to work with the system not against. (Pay your taxes etc.) now, it seems that the “system” even sees value in blockchain tech and wants to regulate it instead of banning it.
I totally agree though that it’s funny if you have a bitcoin fanboy thinking that btc will hurt banks but then go and store the private keys at a bank!
Personally, I am just in it for the money. I store my hardware wallet at a bank, pay my taxes and don’t invest more than I am willing to lose.
253   anon_62010   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 18, 2:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Sniper says
anon_3a1a3 says
I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.


The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.


Boy, I just read an article about it and I have to admit I was wrong. 25% is not minor....thats way too many. If you buy crypto with a cc that’s desperation. That reminds me of “lottery is a poor man’s tax”.
254   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 18, 8:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Crypto is going to be a tragic story for the very large majority 95% BTC owners will crash and burn.... They have very pre-packaged herd ideas about how markets work however have little to no real knowledge of market theory much less the idea BTC is OTC, 0-sum market with risk levels at the extreme. I've followed a few forums discussing crypto and most are absolutely blind as to risk and the ones who use it are mocked, not so much now though ;) They now will learn respect for the market and it's players or just become the money source for those who do or leave the space altogether. It's very hard to describe how naive the pool really is however probability says a big shit storm is about to sweep them away and drown them with their high priced over leveraged 2nd 3rd and more trades placed after their low buys that are now not holding the weight of the nose bleeders...
255   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 18, 8:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Noobs don't short, don't sell claiming to be investors w/o SLs, buy breakouts primarily which have a high rate of failure instead of buying dips and trade the news. lol 1 of the funniest concepts I hear is how the whales are going to march in and save BTC when in fact very few have read the platform disclosures that plainly state they will be counter to their trades at times, exchanges are whales and do hedge using the trader data and AIs against them... 0-sum is 0-sum and all capital is at risk...
256   anon_e3e56   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 19, 7:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Crypto is similar to stocks, it goes up over time. It’s based on speculation that crypto has utility and will become part of our daily life/internet of things. As of now It’s like investing in start ups. But As more and more cryptos get adopted in our payment system, values and acceptance by the public will go up. Blockchain is not going away. That ship has sailed, the US is big on embracing the tech and regulating it.
257   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 20, 4:25pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Get your popcorn out and watch the epic shit storm coming to cryptoland very soon.... Keep an eye out for 12100-12200 if/when it can actually pony up that much chumming the FOMOs $$$ to get it there.... Should be lots of fun watching the billions being snatched away from the noob population with total ease.... I understand the comparison to the stock market and respect that opinion however my many years of trading both Stock and OTC markets know there are stark differences...
258   anon_e3e56   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 20, 5:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

If I understand correctly, you are saying btc will hit heavy resistance (like right now) and corrects down hard. Noobs will panic sell? Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?
259   anon_3e01a   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 20, 5:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?
For instance, even after a nearly 60% swoon in its price, bitcoin mining still comes with a better than $3,500-per-coin margin in the United States, based on its average electricity-based mining cost of $4,758 per coin. Fool me once...
260   anon_2fbc3   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 20, 7:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_e3e56 says
Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?
Totally agree however the main diff is confirmation premiums, circuit breakers when the $$$s who actually move this market pulls the liquidity price can jam past any and all stops due to the vacancy of buyers on the other side locking in untold masses at high prices... ..... anon_3e01a says
I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?
lol I totally support the tech and there are fortunes yet to be made and great buys on mining rigs.
261   anon_e3e56   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 21, 4:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Great time to buy the dip!

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