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Bitcoin and Crypto-currency

By BayArea following x   2017 Nov 5, 3:36pm 18,594 views   283 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


#investing

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.

What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.

For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?

Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?

I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.

At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.

Thanks guys!

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244   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 16, 9:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I'm impressed with the thought put into the design of Bitcoin, and that it's truly outside of the control of any government. But I'm not sure if the market for conversion to/from dollars is being manipulated. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out it is.
245   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 17, 6:59am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees. Nobody ever recommended to buy crypto on a debit or credit card. You can buy cryptos instantly by initiating a bank transfer through coinbase. I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos. Every market has those people. While coinbase is not perfect it’s a legit exchange.
246   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 10:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees.


Yeah, I didn’t buy anything. Just doing research. As I’ve mentioned multiple times here I know nothing about this stuff. Would NEVER put anything like this on a credit card. I don’t believe a lot of people here and elsewhere really know what they’re doing either outside of just trading this. I can make a lot of money at a casino, but wouldn’t call it investing, would you? Not sure how crypto is different.

Which again, go for it. I don’t care. I like casinos occasionally. We have comments here though pointing out 7,000% gains. Apparently this stuff just never goes down and I’m missing out on my consistent 7,000% gain per year. Not you particularly, but it’s astounding how irrational people can become about making easy money.

My question stands though, Coinbase blames it on Visa yet they wouldn’t source Visa saying it? Seems strange. I’d have zero faith in any of these “exchanges” but hey, your money, not mine.

Just let me know what you exchange your crypto for when you have massive gains. I’m sure you’ll just hold it and buy stuff, right? I mean it’s a currency and all. Very stable one at that. Please tell me you won’t convert them to US $’s? Cause if you do that, the fatal flaw of crypto is staring you right in the face. The rush to the exits is coming. Just be ready.
247   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 17, 6:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Wookie, you are over thinking. the question to ask is which coin is going to moooon next? ;)
248   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 17, 7:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
Wookie, you are over thinking


I know.
249   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 18, 7:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

“I’d have zero faith in any of these exchanges”.
Similiar here. Most traders advise not to leave money (usd or crypto) on the exchange and move your crypto to a offline hardware wallet (trezor or ledger nano s) Your token are on the block chain but your private keys to access your currency are safe on a offline hardware wallet. Most traders who own a significant value of crypto, store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.
250   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Feb 18, 8:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.


The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.
251   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Feb 18, 8:39am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.


Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).

??????????????
252   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 18, 2:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Sniper says
anon_3a1a3 says
store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.


Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).



I agree to some extend. There are def. people who think/want Cryptocurrency to replace our current monetar system and take over. However, I think over the years crypto fans realize you need to work with the system not against. (Pay your taxes etc.) now, it seems that the “system” even sees value in blockchain tech and wants to regulate it instead of banning it.
I totally agree though that it’s funny if you have a bitcoin fanboy thinking that btc will hurt banks but then go and store the private keys at a bank!
Personally, I am just in it for the money. I store my hardware wallet at a bank, pay my taxes and don’t invest more than I am willing to lose.
253   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 18, 2:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Sniper says
anon_3a1a3 says
I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.


The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.


Boy, I just read an article about it and I have to admit I was wrong. 25% is not minor....thats way too many. If you buy crypto with a cc that’s desperation. That reminds me of “lottery is a poor man’s tax”.
254   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 18, 8:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Crypto is going to be a tragic story for the very large majority 95% BTC owners will crash and burn.... They have very pre-packaged herd ideas about how markets work however have little to no real knowledge of market theory much less the idea BTC is OTC, 0-sum market with risk levels at the extreme. I've followed a few forums discussing crypto and most are absolutely blind as to risk and the ones who use it are mocked, not so much now though ;) They now will learn respect for the market and it's players or just become the money source for those who do or leave the space altogether. It's very hard to describe how naive the pool really is however probability says a big shit storm is about to sweep them away and drown them with their high priced over leveraged 2nd 3rd and more trades placed after their low buys that are now not holding the weight of the nose bleeders...
255   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 18, 8:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Noobs don't short, don't sell claiming to be investors w/o SLs, buy breakouts primarily which have a high rate of failure instead of buying dips and trade the news. lol 1 of the funniest concepts I hear is how the whales are going to march in and save BTC when in fact very few have read the platform disclosures that plainly state they will be counter to their trades at times, exchanges are whales and do hedge using the trader data and AIs against them... 0-sum is 0-sum and all capital is at risk...
256   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 19, 7:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Crypto is similar to stocks, it goes up over time. It’s based on speculation that crypto has utility and will become part of our daily life/internet of things. As of now It’s like investing in start ups. But As more and more cryptos get adopted in our payment system, values and acceptance by the public will go up. Blockchain is not going away. That ship has sailed, the US is big on embracing the tech and regulating it.
257   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 20, 4:25pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Get your popcorn out and watch the epic shit storm coming to cryptoland very soon.... Keep an eye out for 12100-12200 if/when it can actually pony up that much chumming the FOMOs $$$ to get it there.... Should be lots of fun watching the billions being snatched away from the noob population with total ease.... I understand the comparison to the stock market and respect that opinion however my many years of trading both Stock and OTC markets know there are stark differences...
258   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 20, 5:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

If I understand correctly, you are saying btc will hit heavy resistance (like right now) and corrects down hard. Noobs will panic sell? Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?
259   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 20, 5:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?
For instance, even after a nearly 60% swoon in its price, bitcoin mining still comes with a better than $3,500-per-coin margin in the United States, based on its average electricity-based mining cost of $4,758 per coin. Fool me once...
260   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 20, 7:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_e3e56 says
Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?
Totally agree however the main diff is confirmation premiums, circuit breakers when the $$$s who actually move this market pulls the liquidity price can jam past any and all stops due to the vacancy of buyers on the other side locking in untold masses at high prices... ..... anon_3e01a says
I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?
lol I totally support the tech and there are fortunes yet to be made and great buys on mining rigs.
261   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 21, 4:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Great time to buy the dip!
262   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 26, 8:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Coinbase tells 13,000 users their data will be sent to the IRS soon.

Coinbase told its customers on Friday that it plans to comply with a court order and hand over about 13,000 customers’ data to the IRS within 21 days. The IRS made the request back in November 2016, asking for the Coinbase records of all the people who bought bitcoin from 2013 to 2015 to seek out those who were evading cryptocurrency taxes.

The data requested includes taxpayer IDs, names, dates of birth, addresses, and transaction records from that period.

It informed its 13,000 affected customers that the “court order requires us to produce information specific to your account,” but that the company could not provide legal or tax advice. So far, 2018 is shaping up to be the year that tax collectors get serious about bitcoin earnings, meaning that it’s a good time to be extra careful about compliance.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17055264/coinbase-cryptocurrency-tax-irs-compliance-court-order

Well, the good news, you should be able to deduct all your losses on your taxes. WINNING!!
263   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 7:22am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Your losses??? What are you talking about? Bitcoin was at 1k beginning of 2017 and is now at 10k. Litecoin, ethereum made over 7,000 % in 2017.
As far as coinbase and the irs goes....I wish coinbase would have sent me the tax forms. I had to download my activity on the exchanges and import it to bitcoin.tax for my profit and loss and tax liability output. Took 30min that I don’t get back. Hopefully this will be easier in the future. I would live an import function on turbo tax so that it links with coinbase.

Oh well, crypto is still early stage. Now that Wall Street wants a piece of the pie. Crypto is going to explode in 2018. I loaded up on the last dip. Can’t wait for the next bull run!!
264   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Feb 27, 7:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
Crypto is going to explode in 2018.

2020 for sure!
Why shouldn't a fiat bunch of bits not be worth more than all the silver in the world?
Buy now or be priced out F O R E V E R !
265   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 9:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Nobody ever said buy now or be priced out forever with crypto. It does not make sense because you can always buy a satoshi (fraction of a bitcoin) and don’t need to buy a whole one to be able to participate/invest. Further more, ETFs will be a great way to start investing in the near future.

As far as backing of a fiat currency goes. The dollar is no longer backed by the gold standard. Central banks can print as much as they want.
266   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Feb 27, 9:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_52590 says
Nobody ever said buy now or be priced out forever with crypto.

I did.
anon_52590 says
start investing

Invest in currency? Gamble is a better term.
anon_52590 says
As far as backing of a fiat currency goes. The dollar is no longer backed by the gold standard.

Central bank currencies are no longer backed by anything but the faith, good credit, and the militairy of the countries backing said fiat currencies. What backs crypto?

anon_52590 says
Central banks can print as much as they want.

But we're running out of bits to "mine"?
267   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 11:21am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Yea, to me it’s not gambling. It made me a lot of money. Once the mainstream money comes in it will actually become big. As of now the marketcap is not even close to the stock market cap during the dot com bubble. This baby has legs. But, I am not here to convince anybody. If you don’t believe in the tech and rather invest in stocks that is totally fine. I am not a financial advisor. Just a happy crypto investor. It’s exciting and very profitable
268   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 11:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_52590 says
It’s exciting and very profitable


It's NOT profitable, it's just digits on a screen.

Until you cash out, and have the cash firmly in your hand, all you got is promises and dreams.
269   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 2:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Of course I cash out. So far every time one of my coins mooned I took profits. I am fine with 4-5x on my initial investment. Sure 10x would be better but it’s also riskier.
270   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 27, 3:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_52590 says
Yea, to me it’s not gambling. It made me a lot of money.


I'll disagree with the gambling part here. It truly is gambling. As I've always said, make money on this where you can. I don't begrudge anyone that can and does.

anon_52590 says
As of now the marketcap is not even close to the stock market cap during the dot com bubble. This baby has legs.


Not sure what the dot com bubble has to do with made up currencies. Make money, but when I hear "this baby has legs" I tend to run the other direction from the person that said this. It means nothing. It's made up jargon that people think makes them look smart about something they know nothing about. And this is 100% of people talking about crypto currencies. 100%. So I'm not talking about a user here.

anon_52590 says
If you don’t believe in the tech and rather invest in stocks that is totally fine. I am not a financial advisor. Just a happy crypto investor. It’s exciting and very profitable


This is one of the more candid cypto bull lines I've seen here at least. You've hit the nail on the head. It's exciting. And if you're happy congrats. You at least acknowledge that the market is totally hinged on excitement and that's really it. This is the case in many markets of course. Most have some other backing or support as to why someone would be excited about it though. New product. Increasing sales. Warren Buffet bought X number of shares.

You don't have to believe my patnet persona, but I will be retired by 48 with plenty of money without jumping into the crypto pool. 80-90% of people will fail if given or have invested and gained fuck you money through crypto. The money will gained will be lost. Isn't it funny that Harvard, Yale, etc are such great schools? Why don't we just send everyone there and everyone will just be smarter? We all know it doesn't work that way. You can shoot to the moon with crypto and you'll likely crash and burn shortly after. This is just the reality.

Have fun, but there's a reason certain people/families get rich and stay that way. Luck can be a part of it, but maintaining and increasing wealth once you have it isn't luck.
271   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 27, 10:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

My prediction for the next years: I sell after parabolic run ups and wait for a correction/crash to buy back in. Each time it goes down the haters and perma bears come out in droves and scream I told you so. Bitcoin is dead. Slowly those voices fade as big daddy starts running up again. Then they tell you how successful they all are without crypto and how they all retire early. Same spiel over and over. Works for me.
272   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 28, 4:14am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
I sell after parabolic run ups and wait for a correction/crash to buy back in.


This sounds like a logical plan... for almost any stock. Why will there be continued parabolic run ups in crypto though? Is there any technical data or research to support that it will continue this way? Why do you assume you'll always be on the winning end of this massive volatility as well? If crypos gain popularity more and more, why would governments with their own currencies just let that happen? Essentially assisting in their own country's demise? How many coins are in circulation and aren't forever lost or stolen? What institutions are holding and how much?

I've got a laundry list of questions, almost all of which can't be answered by the crypto bulls. And please don't say "big daddy" either. This thread reeks of the content on a pinkie forum with some of the lingo being tossed about like it makes someone knowledgeable about something they're not. There's not one person on this planet that can predict what is going to happen with crypto unless it's someone in the US, Chinese or Japanese government for the most part.
273   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 28, 6:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Cause people like to invest in it. Why wouldn’t there be run ups. It comes down to Fomo and FUD.
It worked for me in the past. See no reason for it to stop.
The FUD about governments banning it will never get old. Good for me as I like to buy the dips.
US regulators like blockchain. The need for regulations will justify bigger budgets for their departments. Win-win. And The IRS likes the increase in tax revenues due to crypto. All these existing crypto projects/start ups create jobs.
2008: we have an app for it
2018: we have an ICO for it
The rest of your questions seem a bit useless. I don’t care what coins are stolen or lost. Lost coins are a bullish sign as these coins can’t be sold.
More and more institutional money will enter the space. ETFs will be huge for crypto. Imagine the crypto ETFs become part of the investing mix in the US. I think we have seen nothing yet.
274   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Feb 28, 7:43am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
I think we have seen nothing yet.

You will. Give it time.
275   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 28, 9:18am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_3a1a3 says
The rest of your questions seem a bit useless.


Silly acronyms aside, you addressed none of the questions. So I suppose they were useless. Or couldn't be answered, as most crypto bulls can't.

IF cryptos are sooooo valuable, why does every single coin have a conversion to dollars? Hell, bitcoin is valued in dollars to Americans. I'll ask this of the gold and silver bugs too, what kind of society do you think we have where bitcoin, gold or silver would be a means to complete transactions? Unless you're uber wealthy (with dollars of course) or have a massive arsenal of weapons, you'd be dead. You do understand that we intentionally kill innocent people to keep the $ as the worlds reserve currency, right?

For some reason crypto currencies will be allowed to grow enough in popularity to knock off the dollar? As I've said in other comments, you're rooting for your own countries demise if you want cryptos to succeed. Most of these are coins started in Asia. You think they want to keep the status quo with USA being top dog? You don't think there are foreign government with their hands in these crptos already? As a citizen, I'm actually pissed more hasn't been done to knock the shit off. Obama and Trump have been asleep at the wheel on this in my opinion. And I could give zero shits about tax revenue. Crypto is a raindrop in the Pacific.

Also, lost coins can be found and sold. What would you do with 1M bitcoin right now if you were presented with a hard drive containing them? I'm sure you'd just hold onto them, wait for big daddy to get legs and sell them at $20k. Oh wait, did I just put a dollar sign in front, whoops. You see, there's ZERO value in bitcoin until you convert it to..... DOLLARS!

Everyone has to stop with the blockchain bit too. The analogy in this article is that it's basically a fucking google sheets document. This is somehow earth shattering tech? https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology/ The fact is, cryptos don't have to exist for the good 'ole USA to use blockchain. Certain people WANT them to exist and blockchain is the reason, I guess?

As usual with my comments, I have no problem with you trading (stop saying investing) and making money. You can harm society worse in other ways when compared to trading in bitcoin. So I don't have a problem with it. That said, cryptos honestly have a very cultish feel to them if that makes sense. Just remember that some people are able to get out of the cult, but a lot don't make it.

HYHFTB (Hope You Have Fun Trading Bitcoin) AMOLAK (And Make Out Like A King). Acronyms are cool! I know, I know, usually A doesn't get included in acronyms. This A had some serious FOMO so I figured I'd include him.
276   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 28, 12:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Lol, you really like to get into it. Sry I’m not your guy to go back and forth. Invest in it or don’t. Big daddy is going to rock this year :) my bet is it will reach 30k and we will see 1trillion market cap for crypto!
277   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 28, 12:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

What's the only thing worse than buying Bitcoin with a credit card? How about selling Bitcoin to someone in a credit card transaction. Here's The Woz's tale of woe.
“Somebody bought them from me online through a credit card and they cancelled the credit card payment. It was that easy. And it was from a stolen credit card number so you can never get it back.”
278   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 28, 6:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

That’s seems dumb. Why use credit cards? Just buy big daddy via bank transaction and sell it back once it pulls a 3-4x.
279   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 28, 7:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_d3fde says
Lol, you really like to get into it.


I do. Admittedly I'm long winded. Sorry.

anon_d3fde says
Sry I’m not your guy to go back and forth.


That's fine, the questions can go unanswered as they always do.

anon_d3fde says
my bet is it will reach 30k and we will see 1trillion market cap for crypto


My best wishes to you. Seriously. Some of my sarcasm above can be misinterpreted. If you can make a lot of money, fucking do it. As I've said, I don't begrudge anyone making money on crypto. Not my game to play. Nothing to hide on my end.

You know it likely, but I'll say it again, just be careful. No one is coming back here to preach about their losses or on any forum for that matter. I'm not a "I told you so" guy, so if this ends up in ashes, I hope you can get out in time. And if I'm wrong long term, feel free to come back here and beat me over the head with it. If I'm wrong, I don't run from it if it can be proven.
280   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Mar 14, 4:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I know this isn't the typical crypto investor they're describing in the article. But the day of reckoning is coming. Be ready. 82% of people losing money is WORSE then gambling.

The products are high risk and the entire industry has come under increasing regulatory scrutiny across Europe over the past year. The UK's Financial Conduct Authority warned in November that cryptocurrency CFDs "are extremely high-risk, speculative products" that "place you at risk of suffering significant losses." The FCA found that 82% of people who use the products lose money, suggesting CFDs are more akin to gambling than investing.


http://www.businessinsider.com/google-bans-cryptocurrency-binary-option-ads-cracks-down-on-cfd-and-spread-bet-ads-2018-3
281   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Aug 14, 9:48am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Is it time to eject yet????

282   DASKAA   ignore (3)   2018 Aug 14, 10:46am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

It's a BUYING OPPORTUNITY!!!!
283   Evan F.   ignore (0)   2018 Aug 14, 10:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I made $40k on Litecoin, got out in January when things were insanely overheated. Taxes will knock that down to $20k. The hype is over, if you're mining or looking for a huge flip your wasting your time.

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