Bitcoin and Crypto-currency
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Bitcoin and Crypto-currency

By BayArea following x   2017 Nov 5, 3:36pm 11,251 views   281 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


#investing

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a conversation on crypto-currency, particularly Bitcoin.

What do you all think about it from an investment point of view today? I have some buddies in the finance world who are quite bullish on it and claim we are just scratching the surface. Judging by the recent performance, they may be right.

For people who are investing in Bitcoin, what are you using to invest and what recommendations do you have for a new investor?

Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?

I read this week that over 100,000 merchants in the USA are accepting Bitcoin today.

At the same time, digital currency does scare me a bit as it seems so abstract. Curious what PatNet thinks.

Thanks guys!

Comments 1 - 40 of 281     Next »     Last »

1   Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 5, 4:03pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?


There are no taxes on bitcoin gains, since no one knows who the owners are. I suppose you could get caught at the point of converting it to dollars, but why even bother converting if merchants will directly accept bitcoin?
2   WatermelonUniversity   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 5, 5:14pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
but why even bother converting if merchants will directly accept bitcoin?


to cash out big sums to buy a car or a house, they need to.

one of these days the gov will ban all of them. crypto currencies are heaven for tax evasion and money laundering. enough people do it, tax revenue will be down and uncle Sam will step in.
3   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 5, 5:47pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Hi BayArea,

I use Coinbase for buying cryptocurrency. Coinbase and GDAX are the same company and you can actually buy via GDAX with paying zero dollars in fees!!
Coinbase is very user friendly and intuitive but charges fees. As soon as you fund your electronic wallet on Coinbase you can instantly transfer the money to GDAX and buy cryptos for free there. Here is a tutorial:
At this point Coinbase/GDAX is only trading BITCOIN, Litecoin and Ethereum.
Right now, Bitcoin is rallying due to the upcoming fork. It seems, people are selling the Altcoins in order to obtain more Bitcoin to benefit from the fork. After the fork happened (Nov 16th) I expect Bitcoin to correct.

From my experience: Whenever I bought Bitcoin, Litecoin and Ether I thought its expensive. A few weeks later I regretted not buying more.
In my opinion, Cryptocurrency has just started. Once the institutional money starts trading it it will take off even more.
4   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 5, 6:09pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Newbie123 says
In my opinion, Cryptocurrency has just started. Once the institutional money starts trading it it will take off even more.

I don't doubt what you're saying here. Bitcoin could hit 20k for all I know and I'll miss out on those gains admittedly.

The one question I've had for pretty much all the people I've heard getting into this market, mind you these are people that are lucky to have a $60k a year job, what happens when the government shuts this down? I've yet to hear an answer that would make me even remotely comfortable investing in this stuff. So much of the language and behavior around bitcoin and crypto currencies has the smell of the pump and dump penny stock markets. There's absolutely money to be made. Massive amounts. You're a fool though to think you know the game compared to the people running this market.

This is anecdotal, but I know one individual VERY well that gets burned on anything he does outside of the field he knows. Literally EVERYTHING. He's pushing crypto. So yeah, I'll stay away. I've followed this policy of avoiding his choices and it has done me better then most "strategies." This isn't a joke either. He has the heard mentality and gets burned every time.

I'd personally stay away BayArea, but everyone's risk tolerance is different. Tread carefully with money you'd be willing to lose at a casino would be my only advice. For me right now, that would be $10k. But I'd rather spend 40 hours researching companies, that are legal entities and extremely unlikely to be shut down, that might pop on the regular stock market, Throw the $10k at them. Versus buying bitcoin that will very likely be shut down at some point by the US government and most foreign governments. For me it's a when not if conversation about bitcoin being shut down. That's just my opinion and I think anyone saying otherwise is just stating their own opinion. And that's the problem with this type of market. Good luck if you do decide to dive in though.
5   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 30, 8:02am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anonymous says
Coinbase ordered to report 14,355 users to the IRS. Anyone moving more than $20,000 on the platform is subject to the new order.

This is interesting. We'll see how it plays out. Looks like the IRS has the bitcoin can of worms now. Let's see if they open it.
anonymous says

The introduction of various financial products around Bitcoin will amplify the amount of risk investors can take. Cantor Fitzgerald, a large broker which owns an exchange, announced today that it plans to launch Bitcoin derivatives in the first half of 2018. Futures and derivatives allow investors to place bets on bitcoin without owning any of the actual currency, amplifying the amount of financial leverage on the underlying asset. It was an explosion of derivatives pegged to real estate assets like mortgages that underpinned the financial collapse of 2008.

This is really starting to amaze me. You could have made a lot of money inflating the real estate bubble, just like you can now in bitcoin/cryptos. So there are opportunities. But I think everyone can agree a less regulated real estate and mortgage market caused some massive problems for some people. I don't see how bitcoin/cryptos don't come back to earth (or some even cease to exist) in the coming months or years. Too much risk for me. I also don't need fuck you money. That can corrupt people that think they can handle it.
6   Sniper   ignore (11)   2017 Nov 30, 8:10am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Bitcoin plunges 20% from its high.

It's been a wild ride for bitcoin traders.

From Wednesday's high of $11,363.99, bitcoin has fallen to a low of $9,021.85, a 20.6 percent drop. The crypotocurrency is in a period of extreme volatility after a strong showing over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, when it set multiple all-time records.

Bitcoin last traded at $9,206.13, down 6.2 percent on Thursday, according to CoinDesk.

But despite the cryptocurrency's sharp decline after hitting an all-time high, it could fall to near $7,000 without doing much damage on a technical basis, said Mark Newton of Newton Advisors.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/30/bitcoin-plunges-20-percent-from-its-high.html
7   Satoshi_Nakamoto   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 30, 3:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
BayArea says
Also, how are gains taxed compared to typical stock market gains?


There are no taxes on bitcoin gains, since no one knows who the owners are. I suppose you could get caught at the point of converting it to dollars, but why even bother converting if merchants will directly accept bitcoin?


Paying with bitcoin is also a taxable event, if I understand the IRS gibberish correctly.
8   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 30, 8:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

KimJongUn says


Paying with bitcoin is also a taxable event, if I understand the IRS gibberish correctly.

I don't even know if it's gibberish. If you start with 1 and end with 2, the IRS is getting something in between. I'm not sure the currency matters, at least if you're a US citizen. I could be wrong of course, but fighting the IRS most the time is a losing battle.
9   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 30, 8:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I think it's here to stay but nonetheless overvalued. Also the uncertainty wrt taxes and possible penalties/prosecution will keep many away from going big on bitcoin. But it will definitely become a player so I guess any value from $500-$20000 is possible from here, considering its wild swings. Not for me. Also the current mania and funds asking you to join them reminds me of the comical/frantic bay area real estate radio commercials where they ask you to blindly put your money into some flippers/REIT investors schemes.
10   Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 30, 9:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote        

WookieMan says
KimJongUn says


Paying with bitcoin is also a taxable event, if I understand the IRS gibberish correctly.

I don't even know if it's gibberish. If you start with 1 and end with 2, the IRS is getting something in between. I'm not sure the currency matters, at least if you're a US citizen. I could be wrong of course, but fighting the IRS most the time is a losing battle.


Buying and selling assets with bitcoins might be a way of evading taxes and government scrutiny.
11   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 4, 10:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Nearly doubled in the last month

Up ~10x this year

I think I may make a small investment into bitcoin if for nothing more than to force me to better understand it.


So there are currently 16M coins and by definition, there can never be more than 21M coins to cap supply

It’s decentralized, backed by umm.. nothing?

I’ve looked at “Coinbase” ...or GDAX to acquire bitcoin for little to no fees.

I’m not so worried about being able to acquire it but I’m terrified of not being able to turn it back into cash when I want to... any thoughts on that?
12   Satoshi_Nakamoto   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 4, 10:27pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
no taxation on gains


wrong
13   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 4, 10:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

KimJongUn says
BayArea says
no taxation on gains


wrong


Explain por favor
14   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 4, 10:41pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Also, what is the smallest fraction of bitcoin that I can buy today?

And is Coinbase or GDAX preferred for a first time investor?
15   FortWayne   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 4, 10:46pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

This isn't investing, it's pure gambling.
16   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 5, 5:21am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
Also, what is the smallest fraction of bitcoin that I can buy today?

And is Coinbase or GDAX preferred for a first time investor?


Google Satoshi. What does Satoshi mean: "Each bitcoin (BTC) is divisible to the 8th decimal place, so each BTC can be split into 100,000,000 units. Each unit of bitcoin, or 0.00000001 bitcoin, is called a satoshi. A Satoshi is the smallest unit of Bitcoin"

My recommendation: Login to Coinbase and GDAX at the same time and compare. The first time on GDAX I used a very small dollar amount for the learning experience. I think you cant go wrong by funding your Coinbase wallet first and go from there. Once your wallet is funded you can transfer a few bucks from Coinbase to GDAX to try it out (takes only a second). I started with Coinbase but use only GDAX for trading now. Love the zero % taker fee.
Watching Youtube videos regarding this topic is helpful as well.
17   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 5, 5:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
I’m not so worried about being able to acquire it but I’m terrified of not being able to turn it back into cash when I want to... any thoughts on that?

I had similar concerns at the beginning. I happened to have two colleagues I trusted that were using Coinbase/Gdax. Based on their experience combined with internet research/reading investor reviews I decided to sign up. If people had issues turning cryptos back into USD on Coinbase, it would make the headlines. Apparently, they have now 11,9M users (see link below). Personally, I had no issues with trading on both.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/03/coinbase-adds-100000-users-after-cme-announces-bitcoin-futures-plans.html
18   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 7:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BTW, if you plan on investing (some say gambling) in cryptocurrency its recommended to store them on a hardware wallet (trezor, nano etc.). Hackers wont be able to access your currency as it's stored offline. " Trezor is an isolated environment for offline transaction signing and using a small display you can visually verify the transaction contents"
19   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 9:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

So this isn’t like the stock market where it’s Mon-Fri 6am-1pm west coast time... rather it’s 24hrs per day? 365 days per year?
20   FortWayne   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 6, 9:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anonymous says
You have the constant never ending verdicts that Bitcoin etc. is a scam, bubble, etc. and then you have some like this.

Why Bitcoin's Price Will Be Valued At $150,000 By The End Of 2018, According To An Expert. 2017 may be the last year middle-class people will still be able to afford to buy and hold on to a few bitcoins.

Growth in 2017 Hit 1000 Percent

Bitcoin started the year valued at $963 dollars each and has seen a staggering 1000 percent growth within the last 11 months. To put that into perspective, a $1000-dollar investment in Bitcoin is now worth more than $10,000. As an example, an investment in January equivalent to the price of an iPhone 7 could now buy you 10 of the iPhone X. The reason behind the staggering growth is the money that has been flowing into cryptocurrencies.

Demand Is Spiking at Rapid Speed

Coinbase, the San Francisco-bed Bitcoin exchange and the largest in the U.S., has more than 12 million user accounts and is estimate...


If it's such a guarantee, he wouldn't be telling you to buy it. He'd be buying it himself.

I'm just telling you how I see those things... reminds me of that 2006 (buy now or be priced out forever thing)

But I don't understand Bitcoins, all I know is that I can't get a hamburger with it or fill up my car, so seems rather strange that people are buying these things.
21   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 6, 10:10pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I made a small investment in bitcoin via coinbase, mostly to force myself to get familiar with it and learn how it works.

I plan to buy a small position in litecoin and ethereum too.
22   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 7, 4:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

FortWayne,

"But I don't understand Bitcoins, all I know is that I can't get a hamburger with it or fill up my car, so seems rather strange that people are buying these things."

Apparently, McDonalds is planning to accept Bitcoins within the next 1-2 years:
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogeraitken/2017/11/29/bitcoin-odds-on-to-be-accepted-by-mcdonalds-at-end-of-2018-but-could-it-break-20000/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

Maybe interesting as well (Overstock, Dish Network, Microsoft, Intuit, PayPal are accepting Bitcoins as well)
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/06/5-brand-name-businesses-that-currently-accept-bitc.aspx
23   HEYYOU   ignore (9)   2017 Dec 7, 9:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Bitcoin losers should be in stocks,you'll never lose.
24   Satoshi_Nakamoto   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 7, 9:56am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

There was another exchange hack yesterday. $70M worth of bitcoins stolen.
25   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 12:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Where do you guys buy from? I've been looking at coinbase.com, but man, they want a LOT of personal information.
26   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 2:53pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I use Coinbase and Binance. Coinbase is a legit exchange. I dont mind that they inquire a ton of information to verify you before they let you trade. It was annoying though to get set up. I also like that Coinbase does not add Cryptocurrencies lightly. They have strict criteria for all their procedures. Makes me trust them more.

Binance is good for getting set up quickly (it took only a few hours to get verified) AND they have a ton of cryptocurrencies you can trade there. I set up an account with Binance just so I can get in early with IOTA before it starts taking off. Binance is a Chinese based company and does not let you use ACH transactions. You can wire the funds (with a minimum of 10k USD) though. However, you can transfer your Ethererum, Litecoin or Bitcoin from Coinbase to Binance and buy by exchanging them against other cryptos. that's how I do it on Binance and so far so good.

I'd def. go with Coinbase and depending on if you want to buy Cryptos other than the three ones I mentioned above you could consider Binance or Bittrex.
27   CapraHircus   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 8, 11:22pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.
28   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:02am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

goat says
Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.


I had some problems with the identity verification and had to try to register several times before it went through successfully.

When you sign up for Coinbase you will notice that their system is very easy to use and transactions are simple. But the Coinbase service isn’t very powerful. For example, you can’t set limit and stop orders.

The good news is that Coinbase is linked to GDAX. After you have a Coinbase account, you can then sign up for GDAX. GDAX is owned by Coinbase and once you fund your Coinbase account it will link to GDAX.

With GDAX you can set limit and stop orders. GDAX also allows you to buy and sell without fees.
29   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Does anyone know if there are some legitimate US based companies that will allow me to buy IOTA?
30   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:08am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Here is a primitive newbie question (shows you im just getting started with Bitcoin):

Now that I own Bitcoin through Coinbase, how would I go about using my Bitcoins for retail transactions if I wanted?
31   BayArea   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 8:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Newbie123 says
BTW, if you plan on investing (some say gambling) in cryptocurrency its recommended to store them on a hardware wallet (trezor, nano etc.). Hackers wont be able to access your currency as it's stored offline. " Trezor is an isolated environment for offline transaction signing and using a small display you can visually verify the transaction contents"


Thank you for all your feedback, you’ve been very helpful.

I have one question about the hardware wallet. Since my ownership of Bitcoin is with Coinbase/GDAX, I have my Bitcoin security entirely with them and their servers.

Where (and how) would I begin protecting my position with Coinbase with a hardware wallet?
32   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 9, 9:49am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

It is a mathematical given that bitcoin on its current exponential trajectory will end in tears for may who buy in late, since it exhibits the classical ponzi/pyramid-scheme pattern. Nothing can go up in value like this without either being a ponzi scheme or some real unique material in incredibly high demand and depleting fast. Not saying it isn't here to stay as a valid form of payment and that much of the wealth from other forms of payment will be redistributed onto bitcoin, but at some point the musical chairs will stop and cause those who bought in late in the ponzi game to lose a lot of money.
33   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 10:54am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
Does anyone know if there are some legitimate US based companies that will allow me to buy IOTA?


Hi BayArea,

unfortunately, there is no US based company that lets you buy IOTA as of today :( :(
Binance seems to be the only option for now. If you could buy IOTA via Binance and transfer to a hardware wallet it would not be a big issue IMO. However, there is no hardware wallet that supports IOTA at the moment....IOTA is just in its very early stages which makes it riskier to buy/store/secure. That's probably the reason why its under 5 dollars a MIOTA. I am willing to take that risk.
34   komputodo   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:05am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

It's not investing, it's gambling.
35   HEYYOU   ignore (9)   2017 Dec 9, 11:05am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

mell says
ponzi scheme

How dare you say that to economic fiat geniuses. lol

If or when it collapses the losers will get what they deserve.
The few winners will be laughing their asses off at the mass of losers.
How many will end up in the bottom 10%?

Thread posted 11/05/2017.
Today,12/9/2017. Still virtual FIAT.
Nothing special. The gov't's been printing fiat for years & the banks create it out of thin air.
I put a penny in my pocket when I remove it it will be $Millions.
36   HEYYOU   ignore (9)   2017 Dec 9, 11:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Public relations-
Get people to buy,not because they need it,or it makes sense,but because it will make them feel better.
Translation- "A sucker born every minute."
37   komputodo   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

HEYYOU says
How many will end up in the bottom 10%?


Ummm...., about 10% of the buyers.
38   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BayArea says
I have one question about the hardware wallet. Since my ownership of Bitcoin is with Coinbase/GDAX, I have my Bitcoin security entirely with them and their servers.

Where (and how) would I begin protecting my position with Coinbase with a hardware wallet?

I bought Trezor on Amazon (because of the good reviews and because this hardware wallet has a screen). There are great Youtube videos to set up the Trezor and how to use it. Everytime I transfer bitcoins/litecoins or Ethereum to Trezor I test it with a very low value to make sure it works. It's free to transfer cryptos to Trezor and with Litecoin the transactions are almost instantly. Trezor will charge you a small fee when you transfer the coins back to an exchange. Lately, I experienced that the bitcoin transactions are delayed (which they will tell you ahead of time on Coinbase). Its just a bit of an uneasy feeling transferring bitcoins and having to wait a few hours until it shows up in your Trezor.

Having the coins on a hardware wallet makes me feel much better than having it on my harddrive or coinbase server. If your Trezor gets stolen or lost you can recover the coins via security keys.

My recommendation:
1) buy Trezor or Nano Ledger from Amazon or even better on their official website (I bought from Amazon but on their official website its cheaper > https://trezor.io/) For me it seemed strange that the official Trezor website ended in .IO. I did some research and it is legit. (e.g. on Wikipedia the same website is referenced for Trezor and Trezor warns on their Twitter site of scam websites etc.)
2) watch a few Youtube videos on how to get set up or follow the instructions once the wallet arrived ( I am more of a visual learner and love these youtube videos)
3) transfer 0.01 Ether/Bitcoin or litecoin to the hardware wallet to give you piece of mind that the transaction worked fine.
4) transfer the remaining coins.


Regarding the videos. I watched several to make sure I get the same info from several sources. This is one of the videos i watched/followed:

He got 105k views and 1k likes (22 dislike)
39   Newbie123   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 11:33am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

goat says
Coinbase has had some moderate severity bugs in their sign up / verification process for at least 3 months. That really worries me...if their programmers are either too busy, or just don't realize they have these bugs, well...neither reflects well on them.

Stuff like this doesn't make me feel comfortable giving them my info + money.


Yeah. I remember getting set up wasnt' quick/easy. In their defense I would say that they have just grown way above their own expectation.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-user-base-surges-coinbase-adds-1-mln-users-in-1-month

A couple of days ago I received an email from GDX/Coinbase saying:

" (...) We’re continuing to invest heavily to scale our platform

Over the course of this year we have invested significant resources to increase trading capacity on our platform and maintain availability of our service. We have increased the size of our support team by 640% and launched phone support in September. We have also invested heavily in our infrastructure and have increased the number of transactions we are processing during peak hours by over 40x. (...)"
40   Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Dec 9, 1:07pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-08/the-bitcoin-whales-1-000-people-who-own-40-percent-of-the-market
Holders of large amounts of bitcoin are often known as whales. And they’re becoming a worry for investors. They can send prices plummeting by selling even a portion of their holdings. And those sales are more probable now that the cryptocurrency is up nearly twelvefold from the beginning of the year.
About 40 percent of bitcoin is held by perhaps 1,000 users; at current prices, each may want to sell about half of his or her holdings, says Aaron Brown, former managing director and head of financial markets research at AQR Capital Management. (Brown is a contributor to the Bloomberg Prophets online column.) What’s more, the whales can coordinate their moves or preview them to a select few. Many of the large owners have known one another for years and stuck by bitcoin through the early days when it was derided, and they can potentially band together to tank or prop up the market.

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