Obamacare, the greatest theft of all time?
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Obamacare, the greatest theft of all time?

By anonymous following x   2017 Nov 12, 7:36pm 1,261 views   58 comments   watch   quote     share    


#politics Our healthcare has degraded into the worst of all possible situations. A family of 4 will be stuck with paying $1500/month easy. If the family is close to the federal poverty level, heavy subsidies from taxpayers are applied so we can cover essential health benefits such as transvestite gender reassignment surgery and hormone replacement medications.

If the family of 4 is poor, there is a high likelihood that the subsidized health insurance is the single largest consumption of resources made by that family, most likely eclipsing housing and dwarfing car payments.

The system is broken, and we have government intervention to blame. There is close to nothing in our healthcare system that resembles a free market. This system appears designed to fail, as the critics of Obamacare have said for a while.

The question: is there a solution?

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1   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 12, 7:40pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I’ve always felt ObamaCare was meant to fail. The mandate was disastrous. But if the plan was meant to fail then what? Single payer.
2   CBOEtrader   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 12, 7:46pm   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says
Single payer.


Single payer would be an easier step from where we are than a free market. This is the unfortunate reality, and why critics have blamed Obamacare authors of strategizing towards single payer.

I recently started a new career as a health insurance broker. ALL the financially well off and healthy clients are finding ACA alternatives. The ACA is left with the dregs of society, pushing the costs higher.

I thought the financial system was ripe for corruption. That is NOTHING compared to healthcare. Everywhere you look its one absurd motive after another. Ever wonder why a medicaid recipient gets sent to 25 different specialists when diagnosed w cancer? Its because every bill is covered by uncle sam and the specialists all scratch each others' back by referring the patient to their services. The entire system is broken
3   anotheraccount   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 12, 9:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

CBOEtrader says
The entire system is broken


That's been the case before Obamacare. All that Obamacare did is enrich the system even more.
4   anon_d394f   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 12, 9:52pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

CBOEtrader says
Ever wonder why a medicaid recipient gets sent to 25 different specialists when diagnosed w cancer? Its because every bill is covered by uncle sam and the specialists all scratch each others' back by referring the patient to their services. The entire system is broken


And that is why single payer will NEVER work. The Medicare system is the same way. Senior citizens get sent to multiple specialists for tests and consultations, just because the gov't will pay for it.

Hell, my 87 year old father in law is going in for cataract surgery on an eye that has nerve damage and that he hasn't been able to see great out of for over 30 years. He's also like 1-1/2 feet into the grave. Why are they doing the surgery you ask? Because Medicare pays for it.
5   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 12, 10:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

anon_d394f says

And that is why single payer will NEVER work. The Medicare system is the same way. Senior citizens get sent to multiple specialists for tests and consultations, just because the gov't will pay for it.


Funny how single payer works in every other first world country. For half the cost.
6   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 12, 10:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
anon_d394f says

And that is why single payer will NEVER work. The Medicare system is the same way. Senior citizens get sent to multiple specialists for tests and consultations, just because the gov't will pay for it.


Funny how single payer works in every other first world country. For half the cost.


Except for the 22 week waiting times for specialist.
7   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 12, 10:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

CBOEtrader says
I recently started a new career as a health insurance broker. ALL the financially well off and healthy clients are finding ACA alternatives. The ACA is left with the dregs of society, pushing the costs higher.


What is a health insurance broker? I thought they helped companies select plans. Why and how would you be seeing individual patient records to know they saw 25 different specialists? Especially for medicaid patients records. Something does't add up here.
8   anon_13ce6   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 12:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says

Except for the 22 week waiting times for specialist.


That's what you keep saying but never show where you get this figure.
9   errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 13, 1:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

anon_13ce6 says
Goran_K says

Except for the 22 week waiting times for specialist.


That's what you keep saying but never show where you get this figure.


If one person in Venezuela waited twenty weeks, then obviously this applies everywhere always, if you’re a halfwit
10   Booger   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 5:16am   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Several things will help tremendously:
Up front pricing.
HSA's with unlimited or much higher contribution amounts.
Ban on medical lawsuits.
Caps on emergency services pricing.
No medical treatment for illegals.
No requirement for treatment of the uninsured.
11   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 6:22am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says

Except for the 22 week waiting times for specialist.


You could tell us where or you could run and hide. Again.
12   anon_db99c   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 6:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

errc says
anon_13ce6 says
Goran_K says

Except for the 22 week waiting times for specialist.


That's what you keep saying but never show where you get this figure.


If one person in Venezuela waited twenty weeks, then obviously this applies everywhere always, if you’re a halfwit


This is a significant issue in Canada and Europe. Last I checked he US was #1 in the world in healthcare accessibility, FYI.
13   anon_db99c   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 6:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says

What is a health insurance broker?
bob2356 says
Something does't add up here.


Often confused by simple concepts? Dementia is a real problem amongst today's elderly.
14   FortWayne   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 6:45am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I think government should not force people to buy anything. That distorts the market with higher demand, driving prices up.

Real stupid by Democrats to pass it.
15   anon_4480e   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 6:50am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anotheraccount says
CBOEtrader says
The entire system is broken


That's been the case before Obamacare. All that Obamacare did is enrich the system even more.


I can put an elderly couple in blue cross for an out of pocket cost of $1500, wherein they pay nothing with the entire cost directly subsidized by taxpayers. My commission on that sale will be about $45/month for all of 2018.

To summarize, a lot of people are making money on this massive transfer of wealth, wherein the consumer never even pulls out his credit card. This industry is absurd
16   errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 13, 6:53am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

FortWayne says
I think government should not force people to buy anything. That distorts the market with higher demand, driving prices up.

Real stupid by Democrats to pass it.


So then why did The Heritage Foundation write it? You know they are the most prominent “Con servative “ organization on the planet.

Better still, why won’t Republicans repeal it and replace with something better?
17   CBOEtrader   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 6:57am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

errc says
FortWayne says
I think government should not force people to buy anything. That distorts the market with higher demand, driving prices up.

Real stupid by Democrats to pass it.


So then why did The Heritage Foundation write it? You know they are the most prominent “Con servative “ organization on the planet.

Better still, why won’t Republicans repeal it and replace with something better?


Did you not see the Trump executive order? Change is coming... whatever the fuck that means has yet to be seen
18   anon_38c3f   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 7:43am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
anon_d394f says

And that is why single payer will NEVER work. The Medicare system is the same way. Senior citizens get sent to multiple specialists for tests and consultations, just because the gov't will pay for it.


Funny how single payer works in every other first world country. For half the cost.


You just proved why. The COST.

Unless cost controls are put in place (Obamacare NEVER controlled cost of procedures and care), single payer will bankrupt the country.
19   anon_b9053   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 8:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

CBOEtrader says
Our healthcare has degraded into the worst of all possible situations.


So you're saying that single payer with a public option would have been better? So fully nationalizing health insurance would also have been better?

You should have voted Bernie.
20   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 8:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Fully nationalized health care = rationing and subsidizing others. There's no way around this ingrained aspect of socialized health.
21   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 8:28am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
You could tell us where or you could run and hide. Again.


No need to run or hide.

Average wait times reported in 2016 in a survey done by the Fraser Institute.

New Brunswick: 38.8 weeks
Nova Scotia: 34. 8
P.E.I: 31.4
Newfoundland and Labrador: 26
British Columbia: 25.2
Alberta: 22.9
Manitoba: 20.6
Quebec: 18.9
Saskatchewan: 16.6
Ontario: 15.6

Here's the link to the data from their survey.
Link
22   HEY YOU   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 13, 9:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

The free market would keep premiums at $100/month for a family of 14 & pregnant.
Free marketers know this.
What's less than nothing? Any Republican idea.

anon_b9053 says
You should have voted Bernie.


Bernie Sanders,DEMOCRATIC Presidential candidate.
Independent! my big old butt!
23   HEY YOU   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 13, 9:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says
rationing and subsidizing others.

That sounds like all insurance.
We be such socialists.
Coverage depends on the amount of premium one is willing to pay?
24   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 9:42am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

HEY YOU says
That sounds like all insurance.


It's quite different for the reasons I explained above, especially the privatized aspect which acts as an inherent cost control.

Yes, all health care has SOME rationing as a natural result of "there aren't infinite doctors". It's just that capitalism solves the S/D graph far more efficiently than socialism.
25   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 9:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Booger says
Several things will help tremendously:
Up front pricing.
HSA's with unlimited or much higher contribution amounts.
Ban on medical lawsuits.
Caps on emergency services pricing.
No medical treatment for illegals.
No requirement for treatment of the uninsured.


Good list. This is exactly what a productive discussion on patnet should look like. Upfront pricing would rip the mask off this racket.
26   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 9:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

I like the no automatic treatment for illegals. This cost is eaten up by the counties in many states which in turn hurts actual taxpayers.
27   HEY YOU   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 13, 9:54am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says
It's just that capitalism solves the S/D graph far more efficiently than socialism.


Eliminate ACA & lets see what capitalism/insurance premiums does to a families budget "graph".
It might rhyme with "No one in the middle class will have a tax increase."
28   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 9:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

HEY YOU says
Eliminate ACA & lets see what capitalism/insurance premiums does to a families budget "graph".
It might rhyme with "No one in the middle class will have a tax increase."


ACA is already done and collapsing, so we'll see what happens soon.
29   HEY YOU   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 13, 9:59am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

CBOEtrader says
.. whatever the fuck that means has yet to be seen

Kicked my funnybone's butt!
Cracked me up! rofl
30   errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 13, 10:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says
HEY YOU says
That sounds like all insurance.


It's quite different for the reasons I explained above, especially the privatized aspect which acts as an inherent cost control.

Yes, all health care has SOME rationing as a natural result of "there aren't infinite doctors". It's just that capitalism solves the S/D graph far more efficiently than socialism.


Why not advocate for a Capitalist solution then?
31   errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 13, 10:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

mell says
Booger says
Several things will help tremendously:
Up front pricing.
HSA's with unlimited or much higher contribution amounts.
Ban on medical lawsuits.
Caps on emergency services pricing.
No medical treatment for illegals.
No requirement for treatment of the uninsured.


Good list. This is exactly what a productive discussion on patnet should look like. Upfront pricing would rip the mask off this racket.


You believe a Ban on medical lawsuits is part of a good list?

What happens if you are harmed by someone else actions a/o negligence?
32   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

errc says
mell says
Booger says
Several things will help tremendously:
Up front pricing.
HSA's with unlimited or much higher contribution amounts.
Ban on medical lawsuits.
Caps on emergency services pricing.
No medical treatment for illegals.
No requirement for treatment of the uninsured.


Good list. This is exactly what a productive discussion on patnet should look like. Upfront pricing would rip the mask off this racket.


You believe a Ban on medical lawsuits is part of a good list?

What happens if you are harmed by someone else actions a/o negligence?


A cap may be a good compromise. In other countries you may go to jail if negligence is proven, and/or lose your license. There is no perfect system, a cap on damages paired with possible license revocation and/or jail time may work. The current system allows anybody to mount a lawsuit for whatever money they want which mostly benefits the lawyers and clogs the system, not the victim. There's no doubt that the current system is being abused.
33   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:26am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Goran_K says

No need to run or hide.

Average wait times reported in 2016 in a survey done by the Fraser Institute.

New Brunswick: 38.8 weeks
Nova Scotia: 34. 8
P.E.I: 31.4
Newfoundland and Labrador: 26
British Columbia: 25.2
Alberta: 22.9
Manitoba: 20.6
Quebec: 18.9
Saskatchewan: 16.6
Ontario: 15.6

Here's the link to the data from their survey.


I remember the Fraiser institute studies now. That would be Dr. Michael Walker who also writes for Heritage.org. He has been releasing these reports for 25 years trying to get the Canadian government to allow private health insurance. Which I'm sure would be quite lucrative to Dr. Walker. Not a very objective source.

You might want to look at Canadian Institute of Health Study which uses actual patient records and dates from actual records. Fraiser uses a survey that asks docs to estimate what they think the wait time would be and gets something like a 5% return on the survey. Not a very statistically valid way to get data.
34   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_38c3f says


You just proved why. The COST.

Unless cost controls are put in place (Obamacare NEVER controlled cost of procedures and care), single payer will bankrupt the country.


You are very confused on terms. ACA isn't single payer or anything close to single payer. It's government subsidized health care insurance.
35   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

mell says


Good list. This is exactly what a productive discussion on patnet should look like. Upfront pricing would rip the mask off this racket.


Great, How does one price something up front if you don't know what is wrong yet? Goran dodged this question also.
36   bob2356   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Goran_K says
.


It's quite different for the reasons I explained above, especially the privatized aspect which acts as an inherent cost control.

Yes, all health care has SOME rationing as a natural result of "there aren't infinite doctors". It's just that capitalism solves the S/D graph far more efficiently than socialism.


So that's why health care costs twice as much in America. The inherent cost control. I knew I was missing something.
37   mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 13, 10:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
mell says


Good list. This is exactly what a productive discussion on patnet should look like. Upfront pricing would rip the mask off this racket.


Great, How does one price something up front if you don't know what is wrong yet? Goran dodged this question also.


Standard visits all have fixed prices you just don't know them they are billed to the insurance, same for most diagnostics. The majority are standard procedures, probably 80% of procedures who can be priced upfront very easily, if not more. I see no issue here.
38   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 10:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
So that's why health care costs twice as much in America. The inherent cost control. I knew I was missing something.


I have $300 individual MAX limits per individual in my plan. I'm perfectly fine with the cost. What you're asking me to do is subsidize the health care of some non-contributor in addition to what I pay for myself already. How is that fair?
39   errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 13, 10:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

How is ppACA worse than what we had before?

If it is worse, why won’t the Republican majority listen to their constituents, keep their promises that they screamed about for years, and Repeal and Replace it?

Maybe you were ignorant to the fact that all these same problems existed before ACA?

Maybe you didn’t know that ACA was written by, and thrusted upon us all, by The Heritage Foundation? The #1 source for Right Wing/“Independent” Government Solutions.
40   anon_983ac   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 13, 11:38am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

bob2356 says
anon_38c3f says


You just proved why. The COST.

Unless cost controls are put in place (Obamacare NEVER controlled cost of procedures and care), single payer will bankrupt the country.


You are very confused on terms. ACA isn't single payer or anything close to single payer. It's government subsidized health care insurance.


If healthcare was affordable, the government wouldn't have to subsidized the ability to pay for it.

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