Patnet and censorship: Performance Art?
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Patnet and censorship: Performance Art?

By justme following x   2017 Nov 14, 11:22am 4,200 views   226 comments   watch   quote     share    


I wonder if @Patrick has just staged a piece of censorship Performance Art by instituting omnipotent censorship, under the guise of "moderation", and crowd-sourced mass-silencing (encouraging the use of the "uncivil" button) on patrick.net. The aforementioned scheme of blog control is so far removed from Patrick's former free-speech self that I am starting to wonder. Perhaps this is just an exercise in showing what happens when you give absolute power over some domain of life to ONE semi-random person, even one that otherwise professes to love liberty and freedom?

It is more than a little ironic (but should not be surprising to any serious student of human nature) that right-wingers appear to be every bit as eager to censor their opponents as they have recently been accusing the left-wingers of being. And by that I mean the last several years of talk about liberals and their desire for "safe spaces" on and off university campuses, calling them "special snowflakes", and so on.

Well, the right-wing has in recent days been out in force on Patnet, trying to enforce a "safe space" , free of "uncivility" and "NSFW" material, and acting like special snowflakes themselves. And boy, are these right-wing special snowflakes melting down Patnet in a volcanic eruption of censorship actions.

The famous 1960s psychological experiment known as the Stanford Prisoner Project comes to mind as an analogy of sorts. That experiment showed what happens when you give authority for random people to control other random people. What soon happened was not pretty. Read up on it if you want.

Finally, I will revisit and highlight a suggestion I have made several times this year:

What I would like to see is to have free speech, and at the same time avoid massive storms of low-quality comments. For a blog, I think that means to make threads and comments a limited commodity for all posters. Specifically, to limit the number of threads that a user can post on any given day to 1 or 2, and to limit how many comments every user can post on every thread to 10, or 10% of the total number of comments on the thread, whichever is larger.

The purpose of moderation should not be to censor certain forms of expression, but rather to make everyone's time (or space) on the proverbial soapbox a valuable commodity. That way, users are more likely to spend their posting currency wisely. Users who wastes their currency by posting low-quality drivel will lose esteem, or at the very least not be able to dominate the discussion based on volume posted only.

Think of it as rules of order, a very lightweight and blog-adapted version of Robert's rules of order. (By the way, a quite well-known now former pat-netter just mentioned Robert's rules just days ago, and is hereby recognized.)

PS: I very well understand the meta-question as to whether the impact of a blog, as measured by commercial value or informative value, or even political/propaganda value(!), is reduced when the number of threads or comments are somewhat limited. I think many people may think so, perhaps even Patrick himself. Personally, I will take quality over quantity any day.

#misc

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1 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 11:52am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

It's an interesting concept. I think it is all much more innocent than that. My take is that Patrick just wants to have some moderators, because he didn't want to have to do it himself. There were not many offers. Goran may have been the only one, so he accepted. Goran is probably actually doing his best, but does not seem very self aware to me.
For what it's worth, I like your idea regarding post limits. Any experiment in 'free speech' would rely on free market type rules as you suggest. But, it seems that the decision has been made.
2 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 12:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

YesYNot says
My take is that Patrick just wants to have some moderators, because he didn't want to have to do it himself.


Quite possible. And what could be easier than automatic moderation of the RATE of postings, be it threads or comments :-)
3 Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 12:06pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

YesYNot says
It's an interesting concept. I think it is all much more innocent than that. My take is that Patrick just wants to have some moderators, because he didn't want to have to do it himself.


Yes, that's all there is to it. All I want is to get rid of the personal attacks, and I don't have time to do it all myself.

Any political opinion, no matter how odious, it's still very welcome. I would like to debate those opinions and not simply attack the person holding them.

I'm grateful to Goran for the help.
4 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 1:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Patrick says
All I want is to get rid of the personal attacks, and I don't have time to do it all myself.


The problem is that any statement of opinion about another person can be construed as a "personal attack". I got censored (banned for 24 hours on a thread, then jailed) because I made the statement

>>Goran_K is completely unqualified to be the moderator of anything.

The above shows how a unitary moderator and crowd-sourced "uncivility" prosecution works in practice, and also shows why I think Goran_K is unqualified. In fact I got banned by Goran_K for making the statement that he was unqualifed, and then I got jailed by the crowd/mob for writing that the ban proved my point. Patnet cannot function well under this type of censorship regime.
5 Sniper   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 14, 1:04pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote        

justme says
>>Goran_K is completely unqualified to be the moderator of anything.


The bigger question, who are you to make that blanket determination?

justme says
Patnet cannot function well under this type of censorship regime.


When posters make a blanket statement like you did, that's correct.

Why does the forum have to operate around your version of the 1st amendment and censorship?
6 errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 14, 1:08pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

The ultimate irony is that when Patrick made an attempt to clean up the forum and rid it of ad hominem attacks, the right wingers were all up in arms whinging about muh Free Speech!!

Yet once a Right Wing friendly mod is assigned with censoring political posts, none of them made a peep. How pathetically sad
7 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 1:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Patrick says
Any political opinion, no matter how odious, it's still very welcome.


My opinion of Goran_K is a political opinion, and it isn't even terribly odious, if you ask me. But it proved that Goran_K would rather censor me than having his moderational prowess questioned.
8 Sniper   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 14, 1:15pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote        

errc says
The ultimate irony is that when Patrick made an attempt to clean up the forum and rid it of ad hominem attacks, the right wingers were all up in arms whinging about muh Free Speech!!

Yet once a Right Wing friendly mod is assigned with censoring political posts, none of them made a peep. How pathetically sad


You know, you're free to go off and start your own forum and moderate it the way you want. You can call it:

errc.net

Then, you can invite all your special friends over to post all the left wing radical liberal posts they want.

Why don't you go do that? It will be great.
9 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 1:30pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

IMO, if someone wants to be a moderator, then discussion of their abilities to think, interpret, and write clearly is open game, as long as the discussion is honest. It has an impact on their abilities to moderate. OTOH, it will probably be best to just let it go. Goran hasn't zapped anything I've written that I know of. Maybe he's adjusting.
10 errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 14, 1:35pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Sniper says
errc says
The ultimate irony is that when Patrick made an attempt to clean up the forum and rid it of ad hominem attacks, the right wingers were all up in arms whinging about muh Free Speech!!

Yet once a Right Wing friendly mod is assigned with censoring political posts, none of them made a peep. How pathetically sad


You know, you're free to go off and start your own forum and moderate it the way you want. You can call it:

errc.net

Then, you can invite all your special friends over to post all the left wing radical liberal posts they want.

Why don't you go do that? It will be great.


I’m not in search of left wing liberal posts.

I’m just willing to put up a little fight to Make Patrick.net Great Again.

How about you respect Patrick’s wishes and leave his site? Why did you return after being banned?

You realize that all of these efforts to return to civility is a reaction to you specifically, after you trashed his forum for years with personal attacks and disrupting honest discussion?
11 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 1:40pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote        

I have sniper on ignore. He is the only one at the moment, I think. But I see indirectly that he is sniping around this thread.
12 Graybox   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 1:46pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

The daily posters both L/R are so focused on who next they can attack the tree is invisible. To bad you all don't take a month off and then come back with new perspective and perhaps new ppl to attack. This site is conditioned as is and there is no fix..... This is as good as it gets boys and girls....
13 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 1:46pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

justme says
I have sniper on ignore.
That's wise.
14 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 1:52pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (4)     quote        

Graybox says
The daily posters both L/R are so focused on who next they can attack the tree is invisible. To bad you all don't take a month off and then come back with new perspective and perhaps new ppl to attack. This site is conditioned as is and there is no fix..... This is as good as it gets boys and girls....


I disagree. People who come here to troll/attack and in general just cause trouble won't be here for much longer, and the bans will start getting dished out. I've already noticed that some threads are a little bit more civil, but with a lot less volume. Civility will improve and I've never cared much about volume. I think too much volume from certain posters may have actually caused the membership to stagnate for a few years.
15 APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE   ignore (5)   2017 Nov 14, 1:59pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Poobah Pat oppresses me all the time.

It is the price of FREE!dom.
16 Graybox   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 2:08pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Goran_K lol.... Patrick wants Volume you may not care about it however the conditioning I mention will make sure "you" get your wish low volume. Patnet had its day and now just critical mass keyboard verbal war mongers and he can continue down this dead end road as long as he wishes and the only change that will take place is more people not giving 2cents to be a part of this endless mess....
17 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 2:13pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (4)     quote        

Graybox says
Goran_K lol.... Patrick wants Volume you may not care about it however the conditioning I mention will make sure "you" get your wish low volume. Patnet had its day and now just critical mass keyboard verbal war mongers and he can continue down this dead end road as long as he wishes and the only change that will take place is more people not giving 2cents to be a part of this endless mess....


Maybe you're right but we're trying to clean things up. I don't remember the site being so vicious before. But it's gotten this way over the years. Kind of sad actually.
18 Graybox   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 14, 2:36pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Goran_K says
I don't remember the site being so vicious before. But it's gotten this way over the years. Kind of sad actually.
So many self important and self absorbed keyboard war mongers who feel no responsibility to put themselves in check on this site to improve the whole, giving just about zero probability this site will grow in the way we all wish it would all that seems to happen is they look for a loophole to shoot the people they hate, they even do it in the post of efforts to improve things. Basically this conditioning has alienated 1/2 the population females it's way to full of continued hateful speech. I actually enjoy many comments even yours ;) but it's hard work to find the jewels of concept instead most all that can be found is somebody shoving their opinions down someones throat adding all the insults imaginable they can.... Iwog being 1 of the worst offenders and example imo. Healthy debate is best put on the table allowing others to take and leave what they wish not forcing and making them eat some shit concept they don't agree with....
19 Sniper   ignore (7)   2017 Nov 14, 2:52pm   ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (4)     quote        

errc says
You realize that all of these efforts to return to civility is a reaction


It's a reaction?? Are you saying you can't help and stop yourself from attacking all the other posters here? You've been on a tear for the last 6 days.

Why can't you stop being uncivil?

Here's a novel concept, why not set an example and become extremely civil in all your posts and lead by example.

Or, you can live in the past and chase some sort of past boogieman member that's not even listed in the Users list. Do you want to live in the past or move forward to the future?
20 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 14, 2:58pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote        

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says
It is the price of FREE!dom.


BELTFED CENSORSHIP is the price of freedom!!! (Yes, /SARC)
21 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:18pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but if either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.
22 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:20pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

justme says
The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but of either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.


It's not really that strange. We're trying to prevent "back and forth insults" where someone says "You're a moron" and then "No way, you're an idiot" for 20 post straight. This was what was happening before the changes and the threads would get heavy volume from 2-3 people, and everyone else would mostly bow out. There was no debate, really just people trying to tear each other down and it was turning a lot of people off.

If that person is NOT a member of the forum, then it's much harder to have the back and forth flame wars. So go ahead and make fun of Bernie or Trump all you want.
23 Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

justme says
The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but of either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.


Yes @justme you're right that that is an unusual rule. But that's the rule.

Put another way, just don't get into flame wars with the other users.

If either the real Bernie Sanders or the real Donald Trump gets on patrick.net, I'll pay you $1000.
25 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:39pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

@justme

The rules are pretty simple. Not sure what you're not understanding or why you have to have weekly lessons on why the rules are the way they are.

If you read my original #Politics rules set, I didn't even want to censor personal attacks. I wanted everything to stay the same except #NSFW material. But Patrick wanted to try something different, and I agree that maybe it's time for a change to the way PatNet was say 5 years ago when ALL personal insults were just nuked.

justme, I've tried to give you and others lots of leeway. One of your crew made racial slurs, and went on a tirade that was very explicit. You've been less "aggressive" about your dislike, but it's all still very biased commentary. There are plenty of members on the forum who are able to follow the rules and not turn things personal.

But you even here, still find a way to try and turn things personal with "I don't think you have the acumen" to be a moderator. Maybe, maybe not.

But if you simply follow the rules, and don't personally insult someone (which you have done regularly), then there won't be a problem. Even "errrc" has stepped down his personal insults, maybe you should try the same.
26 justme   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Look, Some dickweed just jailed me for uncivilty again. That was also not a personal insult, BTW, because nobody was named among the current set of users.
27 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 3:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

anon_61c8a says
Goran can say that he fucking hates leftists, but if I say that anyone who characterizes the proposed tax cuts as a cut for the poor is a liar or moron, it is straight to jail. Clear as day.


That was wrong of me to not clarify. I should have made clear that I hate leftism, but not the individual.

I'll try to be better in the future.
29 anon_61c8a   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 17, 4:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Goran_K says
I'll try to be better in the future.

Should I say 'a liar, a moron, or indoctrinated?' you characterized the left as indoctrinated in another thread, so is that ok?
30 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 4:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

anon_61c8a says
Should I say 'a liar, a moron, or indoctrinated?' you characterized the left as indoctrinated in another thread, so is that ok?


Sure, you can say the "right is indoctrinated", just don't aim the insult at an individual.
31 mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 17, 6:07pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote        

anon_7c0c9 says
Patrick, you've created so much rage here that I think it's time you said something about it. Do you think it's better now? I think it's a toilet now.


I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)
32 mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 17, 6:18pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

anon_7c0c9 says
mell says
I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)


Take one look at the jail and tell me this hasn't become an embarrassment.


Took a quick look, can't go through many, but noticed that 4,9.10 seemed fine to me. There should be a way to bring them back.
33 anon_61c8a   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 17, 6:40pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Just go read the jail thread. It's the new best of patnet.
34 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 17, 6:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

anon_7c0c9 says
Its a pity for the last 70 odd years under American leadership, the world has been a peaceful and prosperous place. Now thanks to Trump, he has hastened the decline of America and gladly handed over the reins to Russia and China. The worst president ever.

^^^ Deleted by Goran to enforce the site's political agenda ^^^

Just another alt right echo chamber censored to prevent people from disagreeing.


Uh I didn’t delete that comment. You do know that uncivil is available to everyone. If I had the ability I would actually unjail that comment and a few others.

I only delete comments where it’s becoming a back and forth off topic personal battle. Even then I try to be very judicious about it.
35 anon_7c0c9   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 17, 6:41pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

anon_61c8a says
Just go read the jail thread. It's the new best of patnet.


Yup this.
36 mell   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 17, 6:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Goran_K says
anon_7c0c9 says
Its a pity for the last 70 odd years under American leadership, the world has been a peaceful and prosperous place. Now thanks to Trump, he has hastened the decline of America and gladly handed over the reins to Russia and China. The worst president ever.

^^^ Deleted by Goran to enforce the site's political agenda ^^^

Just another alt right echo chamber censored to prevent people from disagreeing.


Uh I didn’t delete that comment. You do know that uncivil is available to everyone. If I had the ability I would actually unjail that comment and a few others.

I only delete comments where it’s becoming a back and forth off topic personal battle. Even then I try to be very judicious about it.


Ah that explains. Thought the comment was ok. Then it's not Goran's issue.
37 anon_13ce6   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 18, 7:36am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank. @patrick if this is your intention just tell us now and we will stop fighting for patnet. If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank then Goran is a perfect moderator. Is that your intentions?
38 Goran_K   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 18, 7:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote        

anon_13ce6 says
The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank. @patrick if this is your intention just tell us now and we will stop fighting for patnet. If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank then Goran is a perfect moderator. Is that your intentions?


I encourage you to keep "fighting". Bring out the ideas of the left and show them for their real value. If the value of leftism is so important, you should have no problem presenting and debating leftism on PatNet without resorting to personal insults.

Get out there and fight! (but keep the personal attacks minimal)
39 anon_61c8a   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 18, 7:44am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

anon_13ce6 says
If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank
regurgitation tank, maybe. It's a safe space for cud.
40 errc   ignore (2)   2017 Nov 18, 7:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

mell says
anon_7c0c9 says
Patrick, you've created so much rage here that I think it's time you said something about it. Do you think it's better now? I think it's a toilet now.


I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)


Maybe it’s your own love of Republicans and disdain of Democrats that has you seeing this with such bias. Goran treats people who aren’t rabid right wingers way differently than he does those that he views as being on his team. It’s plain as day to anyone with a brain who doesn’t participate in the silly partisanship

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