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We need to talk about this shitty tax plan

By NewOldUser following x   2017 Nov 16, 5:39pm 14,083 views   116 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


#housing

I have no idea why anyone in the government thinks it's a good idea to eliminate MI and LAST tax deductions. If approved and implemented, many middle class people with children will be pinched very hard in the wallet.

This plan sucks. Period. I fully support Trump, but this shit is a total slap in the face.

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77   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 19, 9:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewOldUser says
bob2356 says

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?


Assuming 4% rate, a single year's worth of the mortgage would be: $12,500,000.


Someone who can read. Excellent.
78   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 19, 9:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

just any guy says
bob2356 says
just any guy says

#1 - The folks paying over $500K in mortgage interest


How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?
Assuming a 20% down, roughly $650K mortgage


That's a hell of an interest rate to pay 500k interest a year on a 650k mortgage. Loan sharks do mortgages now?
79   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 20, 7:36pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@ Patrick - Was out for a few days and missed most of this rubbish. In hindsight, not sure why this one is a #housing topic though. The OP title is about the tax plan. Yes MID has to do with housing and the cap gains proposed changes, but outside of that, this tax plan conversation is mainly political. It's a tax plan and not a housing plan.

The responses here are generally why I tend to stay out of the politics topic, which is where this post probably belongs IMO. There's cross over for sure, but this is tax policy, applied to housing. Tax policy is 100% political.
80   PrivilegedtobeWhite   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 20, 10:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
That's a hell of an interest rate to pay 500k interest a year on a 650k mortgage. Loan sharks do mortgages now?
Indeed.
81   PrivilegedtobeWhite   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 20, 10:05pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewOldUser says
I haven't the slightest clue what you're referring to on this point. Please elaborate how renters cover any costs for owner-occupied SFH?
Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?
82   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 21, 6:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

anonymous says
Large Job Growth Unlikely to Follow Tax Cuts for the Rich and Corporations.


Fox news and breitbart says it will. Don't be a party pooper by bringing up the fact it never has in the past. It's different this time.
83   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 21, 7:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just any guy says
NewOldUser says
I haven't the slightest clue what you're referring to on this point. Please elaborate how renters cover any costs for owner-occupied SFH?
Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?


Because renters don't have to fix anything, do upgrades, replace roofs, paint, replace carpet, etc. In the long run, renters come out ahead versus getting the tax deduction.
84   NewOldUser   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 21, 9:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just any guy says
Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?


Say what? How does the mean that renters are subsidizing homeowners?

You do realize how much more SALT (the money that funds the county for infrastructure and the local school districts) homeowners pay, right? Renters pretty much use all that stuff for free because renting is a cash business, meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.
85   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 22, 5:28am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewOldUser says
You do realize how much more SALT (the money that funds the county for infrastructure and the local school districts) homeowners pay, right? Renters pretty much use all that stuff for free because renting is a cash business, meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.


WTF do you think the rent pays for?
86   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 22, 7:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewOldUser says
meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.


Well at least not directly. They do pay rent which the landlord uses to pay property taxes so indirectly renters do pay property taxes.
87   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 22, 10:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Enough guys.
88   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 22, 6:25pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says

You don't think a landlord passes all his costs through to the renters in the total rent payment?


Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand. What the owner pays in mortgage/SALT is irrelevant to what the market charges for rent. (except in the very long run)

For example--if there are 1000 houses for rent in a local market like Detroit, it doesn't matter that the owner of one may have large mortgage, that house will probably rent for less than his costs.
89   Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 22, 6:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

That's true.

A landlord cannot simply pass any and all costs on to renters. Rents are set by ability to pay it, not by what the landlord thinks he needs.
90   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 22, 6:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewOldUser says
taking the position that the $200k to $500k taxpayers are not "middle class"


Some take this position? Ridiculous! Everybody knows that the middle extends 3 standard deviations from the algebraic average.

If you are in the bottom 1%, you are poor. If you are in the top 1%, you are rich. Everybody else is middle class.
91   steverbeaver   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 23, 8:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hold on a second. Has the plan been finalized? If so, where can one find an unbiased summary of actions (not anticipated effects). Also, I thought the standard deduction was going to be raised. Just a thought before this devolves into pure red vs blue.
92   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (34)   2017 Nov 23, 8:15am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The plan is to rape everyone who works for a living and fist them to death and shoot them in the face and to make life for the investing class a tax free experience, as the Founding Fathers intended.
93   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 23, 10:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anon_8f378 says

Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand.


That is the definition of a free market.
94   jazz_music   ignore (6)   2017 Nov 23, 11:13am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote   flag        

I read today that the last Roman emperors were puppets of the warlords just like American politics is today.

Our bankers and Military leaders have the only meaningful high quality choices and benefits of government monopolized for themselves on an ongoing basis. They are the ones who are not divided, and not hateful or confused at all.

The same government the right wingers cry about as inept implements bankers and Military leaders objectives with nearly 100% effectiveness whereas if we get an item of popular vote they usually get the issue to backfire even before the vote is placed into practice.

How does it feel?

Maybe with today's media and surveillance this empire will last forever until nature puts an end to humankind.

All American oligarchs have to do is to join with Russian oligarchs and the rest of the world's oligarchs will become irrelevant without any war needed.

That is how close to the new world order right now while right wingers cry about poor tax hogging up our meager earnings.
95   NewOldUser   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 23, 4:06pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anon_8f378 says
Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand. What the owner pays in mortgage/SALT is irrelevant to what the market charges for rent. (except in the very long run)

For example--if there are 1000 houses for rent in a local market like Detroit, it doesn't matter that the owner of one may have large mortgage, that house will probably rent for less than his costs.


EXACTLY. The rent is the rent is the rent.
The renter pays for the rights granted in the lease agreement, explicit terms such as "pet fee" or similar, AND NOTHING MORE.

The landlord is obligated to pay the property taxes. And maintenance. And repairs. Individual balance sheets are irrelevant. What happens when the unit is vacant? The landlord pays the taxes. Case closed.

Just because you bought a car does not mean you paid the company's research & development costs. You paid for a fucking car.
96   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2017 Nov 23, 4:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
All American oligarchs have to do is to join with Russian oligarchs and the rest of the world's oligarchs will become irrelevant without any war needed.


Jeff Bezos. Elon "Subsidy" Musk. Bill Gates.

All of whom are firmly on the side of crushing Middle America with mass immigration and H-1Bs. All of whom opposed Trump.

As did the Koch Brothers.

We know who their preferred candidate was...
97   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2017 Nov 23, 4:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says


Yes, Bezos and the WaPo lobbied incessantly for Hillary, who is Cheap Labor's best friend. Even in her Private Prisons they'll use inmates to crush honest labor.
98   Patrick   ignore (0)   2017 Nov 23, 4:42pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says
The plan is to rape everyone who works for a living and fist them to death and shoot them in the face and to make life for the investing class a tax free experience, as the Founding Fathers intended.


Yes, the primary injustice in our current tax system is that actual productive work is taxed much more highly than capital gains is:

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/12/11/long-term-capital-gains-tax-rates-in-2017.aspx

It's really amazing that this is never in the press. It should be the headline every day.
99   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 24, 4:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsMcGee says
As did the Koch Brothers.

We know who their preferred candidate was.


Sure I'll bite. Who do you believe the koch bro's preferred candidate was?
100   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 24, 4:53am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says

Yes, the primary injustice in our current tax system is that actual productive work is taxed much more highly than capital gains is:

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/12/11/long-term-capital-gains-tax-rates-in-2017.aspx

It's really amazing that this is never in the press. It should be the headline every day.


What press do you read? Long term capital gains taxes have been discussed time and time and time again for years and years.

Anyone with a high enough income and large enough potential capital gains for these changes to matter already are watching and planning for this.
101   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2017 Nov 29, 4:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
Sure I'll bite. Who do you believe the koch bro's preferred candidate was?

I suspect they hoped for Hillary as many insider Republicans like Kristol and French and Wilson and the rest of the Bowtie Country Club Crew clearly did.

Being such huge boosters of the Republicans for decades but not endorsing the winner in 2016, they showed themselves to be the Corporatists they really are.

The Winner has pushed deregulation and tax cutting while in office. I suspect the "Libertarian" Koch Brother's dependence on illegal immigrants and government subsidies for their many low-value added resource extraction enterprises made them unwilling to support a Nationalist.
102   steverbeaver   ignore (1)   2017 Nov 29, 5:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I have seen report that people's tax liability goes down across the board. Is this true, and does this account for the supposed loss of MI deduction?
103   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 29, 5:58pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsMcGee says
I suspect they hoped for Hillary as many insider Republicans like Kristol and French and Wilson and the rest of the Bowtie Country Club Crew clearly did.

Being such huge boosters of the Republicans for decades but not endorsing the winner in 2016, they showed themselves to be the Corporatists they really are.


The jokes on you, though, as the Koch Bros. have proven to have more influence than Bannon ever will. They're getting everything they could have every wanted and more with Trump. The tax plan. Deregulation. All they have to do is let Trump pretend that he's doing something about immigration.
104   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 29, 5:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

steverbeaver says
I have seen report that people's tax liability goes down across the board. Is this true, and does this account for the supposed loss of MI deduction?


No, it's not true. Many middle class taxpayers will pay more under both Senate and House plans.
105   anonymous   ignore (null)   2017 Nov 29, 7:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says
Wrong, why do you libbies keep pushing this lie. The majority will get a BENEFIT.


Which tax plan is this? House? Senate?

Link?
106   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 29, 8:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says
Wrong, why do you libbies keep pushing this lie. The majority will get a BENEFIT.



Who the hell is ernie tedeschi and what is osp? Where can we see the methodology behind this? Just because you found a pretty picture on the internet doesn't prove jack shit.

The majority will get a temporary BENEFIT. There I fixed it for you.
107   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 29, 8:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsMcGee says
bob2356 says
Sure I'll bite. Who do you believe the koch bro's preferred candidate was?

I suspect they hoped for Hillary


That's the most insane thing you've ever posted and that's a really high bar. I'm sure Hillary would have packed the cabinet with people who make time twice a year to spend a week hanging with the koch bros at their very exclusive invitation only get togethers of ultra rich libertarians just like trump did. I'm also sure that somewhere in Tennessee there are pigs that can whistle while they are flying. . The koch bros are getting their wildest wet dreams fulfilled by trump other than dropping the ball on obamacare.
108   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2017 Nov 29, 8:40pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
The majority will get a temporary BENEFIT.


Sniper says
The majority will get a BENEFIT.


Hey Bobby, does the word "BENEFIT" appear in both of those sentences? Duh.
109   bob2356   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 29, 8:50pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says


Hey Bobby, does the word "BENEFIT" appear in both of those sentences? Duh.


Why is the benefit temporary while benefit for corporations and the wealthy is permanent? It's only there long enough to sell the plan to the gullible like you then poof it goes away.

Why did you and the entire right wing media/politicians/blogsphere scream about deficit and debt pretty much daily for 8 years of Obama bu now there ist not a peep about a tax plan that adds trillions to the debt? Nothing/nada/zilch/zero. Orwell nailed it with newspeak. Just a little teeny tiny bit of hypocrisy going on here?
110   Strategist   ignore (3)   2017 Nov 29, 8:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says
bob2356 says
The majority will get a temporary BENEFIT.


Sniper says
The majority will get a BENEFIT.


Hey Bobby, does the word "BENEFIT" appear in both of those sentences? Duh.


Isn't that nice. Who pays for the benefits, and what benefit do those get by paying?
113   Booger   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 20, 7:22pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

You can tell this is a good bill for Americans by how salty the European Union is over it... oh, and the left of course.
114   Booger   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 20, 7:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Liberals are triggered so hard right now. I am going to watch slo mo videos of liberals screaming histrionically at the Trump election to celebrate.
115   Booger   ignore (1)   2017 Dec 20, 7:36pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The left doesn't want there to be any examples of how good things can be, which proves how wrong they are. This is why they won't allow countries like Poland and Hungary to not take in refugees, and why they're scared of American prosperity under lower taxes/less government. Returning power to the people and to sovereign nations are threats to leftist globalist power.

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