Questions for the true believers
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Questions for the true believers

By Onvacation following x   2017 Dec 27, 6:38pm 5,763 views   418 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


#politics
How much has the temp and sea level risen in the last hundred years?
How much did the temp rise between 2015 (2nd hottest year) and 2016 ( hottest year EVER)?
How can they measure such a small increase over the entire globe?
If the earth is warming why is the hottest temp ever recorded over a century old?
What is the ideal temp for human habitation?

Still waiting for answers to these important questions.

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321   anon_5c442   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 4, 1:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Onvacation says
I got my numbers from noaa. Do you have a better source? What are your numbers?


So you trust the NOAA now? When did that start?
322   anon_b40bb   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 4, 1:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
The source for the Salon article was a conversation with the reporter who fucked up and misquoted Hansen. Why does that reflect poorly on Hansen? I mentioned above that the question was based on a doubling of CO2 concentration. Why do people keep forgetting that part?


Because one was a conversation while the other was a posted prediction by him, which DIDN'T reference the doubling of CO2. There's a BIG difference.

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
I guess it is easier to propagate an error (lie) that supports your agenda than look for the truth.


Is lower Manhattan underwater yet?

He has continued that lie for decades, even after proven wrong by miles? Why are you still believing him?
323   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 4, 3:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

anon_b40bb says
He has continued that lie for decades, even after proven wrong by miles? Why are you still believing him?


Some people are really missing the forest for the tree.
No way? One guy was wrong? No warming then?

Then why do countries around the arctic have a massive amount of projects in the arctic based on the warming?
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-arctic/
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-arctic/the-political-arctic/
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-arctic/the-economic-arctic/



Some people can't see that they are fighting a rear guard battle.
324   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 4, 3:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Why are new shipping routes already planned?

We are not talking of scientists. These are business people. Are they lying too?

325   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 4, 3:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

China wants its share too. Wonder why? It's all a scam right?

" China’s ambitions in these regions have not received due attention, in part, Brady says, because so few Western journalists speak and read Chinese. The country has deployed what she calls “two-track messaging,” sending alternative signals to domestic and international audiences. President Xi Jingping in November 2014, for example, spoke in Hobart, Australia, where for the first time he stated that his country will be “joining the ranks of the Polar great powers,” which Western media largely missed.

In June, the government broadened its ambitious Belt and Road Initiative for trade to include the Arctic.

China cannot physically claim Arctic territory, but it can buy stakes and influence wherever it seems wise.

“China’s thinking on the polar regions and global oceans demonstrates a level of ambition and forward planning that few, if any, modern industrial states can achieve,” Brady writes.

China has undertaken a soft-power campaign, first focused on scientific collaboration, with financial interests not too far behind. The nation struck a free-trade pact with Iceland in 2013, and it has held free-trade discussions with Norway since 2008. Finland has jointly called for greater cooperation with China, in the context of European Union trade policy. Canada and China in December extended exploratory free-trade talks after being unable to launch a formal round."
326   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 4, 3:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote      

People who are so sure there is no warming should put their money where their mouth is and buy Florida properties right on the beach.
They are getting a discount from idiots panicking.
It's a sure bet, right?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-29/south-florida-s-real-estate-reckoning-could-be-closer-than-you-think
"In a working paper posted this month on Social Science Research Network, an online repository of academic research, professors from the University of Colorado at Boulder and Pennsylvania State University found that homes exposed to sea-level rise sell at a 7 percent discount compared with equivalent but unexposed properties.

“This discount has grown over time,” the authors wrote, “and is driven by sophisticated buyers and communities worried about global warming.” Properties along both coasts of Florida are at risk of sea-level rise, mapping in the paper shows.
"
327   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Jan 4, 7:34pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Heraclitusstudent says
Why are new shipping routes already planned?

We are not talking of scientists. These are business people. Are they lying too?


No, they want to make money and lower shipping costs.... duh...
328   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 5, 7:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote      

Heraclitusstudent says
Some people are really missing the forest for the tree.
No way? One guy was wrong? No warming then?

That of course is the big issue.

Another issue is that the denier club is not even honest about it. Hansen did not predict that the West Side Highway would be underwater in 20 yrs or 40 yrs. He was asked offhand what it would be like in 40 yrs if the CO2 levels doubled. He said that the West Side Highway would be underwater. That means IF the CO2 levels doubled. It got misreported, and is still being rerun by all of the dishonest denial sites. The people here will not admit it, because they are invested in the outcome based on a bogus argument and believe the dishonest denier websites.

Here's a description of what happened: http://www.hi-izuru.org/forum/Basic%20Rebuttals/2011-02-22-Basic%20Rebuttal%20%23170_%20Hansen%20predicted%20the%20West%20Side%20Highway%20would%20be%20underwater.html
There are many other places on the web that describe this. If Hansen wanted to make this prediction, it would appear in a scientific journal or in congressional testimony. Instead, it appears in a Salon article based on a quote from a writer who has since said that he made a mistake while talking to a Salon writer. It appeared differently in his book, which is available for anybody to check.
329   anon_25c83   ignore (3)   2018 Jan 5, 7:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Sniper says
No, they want to make money and lower shipping costs.... duh...


They are going to be saving money by scheduling shipping routes through the arctic ice sheet? Or will that ice be gone for some reason in the future?
330   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Jan 5, 7:58am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

anon_25c83 says
Or will that ice be gone for some reason in the future?


According to Al Gore, it was suppose be gone already? What happened?

331   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 8:35am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Onvacation says

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
The percent change is known better then the absolute temperature, because it relies on precision rather than accuracy. Others have pointed this out in this thread, and you have not addressed it for some reason.

So what was the percent change in temperature between 2015 and 2016?
FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
That depends on what temperature scale you use. Why do you repeatedly ask ill posed questions of other people?

So you got no answers.
332   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 8:36am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says

So you trust the NOAA now?

Don't you?
333   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 8:39am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Heraclitusstudent says
No warming then?

Very little.
Tell us how a degree per century or 4/100 a year is a lot of warming?
334   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 8:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Heraclitusstudent says
Why are new shipping routes already planned?

How many have actually made it through the ice?
335   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 8:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Questions yet to be answered:
Onvacation says

How can they measure such a small increase over the entire globe?
If the earth is warming why is the hottest temp ever recorded over a century old?
What is the ideal temp for human habitation?

Still waiting for answers.
336   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 5, 10:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Onvacation says
So you got no answers.

I have three answers. They are all different, because you get a different answer depending on the temperature scale used. It's four if you consider Rankine worth mentioning. It's very simple math. Why don't you calculate the percent change in temperature in Celsius, Fahrenheit, and Kelvin. I'm curious to see if you can figure it out. For bonus points, tell us why you think anyone should give a shit what the answers are. For extra credit, define a new temperature scale with infinite percent increase since the baseline. That should be easy enough, and frankly no more arbitrary than Celsius, which is based on the temperature water freezes, or Fahrenheit, which is even more arbitrary.
337   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 5, 10:33am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (4)     quote      

Onvacation says
Still waiting for answers.


Already answered several times above. We can lead you to water but not force you to drink. Also we explained why this is irrelevant.
Climate is an average over at least 20 years. Fluctuations from year to year are irrelevant.


Onvacation says
Tell us how a degree per century or 4/100 a year is a lot of warming?


We already explained that:
- CO2 is accumulating
- we generate a lot more now than in the past.
So that the expected warming is far more than the rear view mirror.
But of course you will continue to ignore this fact, because it turns out you are just as intellectually dishonest as Piggy.
You ask questions, but you really don't want the answers.
338   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 8:47am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
Onvacation says
So you got no answers.

I have three answers. They are all different, because you get a different answer depending on the temperature scale used. It's four if you consider Rankine worth mentioning. It's very simple math. Why don't you calculate the percent change in temperature in Celsius, Fahrenheit, and Kelvin. I'm curious to see if you can figure it out. For bonus points, tell us why you think anyone should give a shit what the answers are. For extra credit, define a new temperature scale with infinite percent increase since the baseline. That should be easy enough, and frankly no more arbitrary than Celsius, which is based on the temperature water freezes, or Fahrenheit, which is even more arbitrary.

So you got no answers. Are you ready to admit that there has been little to no warming absolutely or by percentage?
Very little warming.
339   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 8:51am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Manbearpig! Manbearpig! The coming maunder minimum - not if but when - will eviscerate the church of global warming. Bunch of fcking money wasted on junk science.
340   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Jan 7, 9:07am   ↑ like (9)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

mell says
The coming maunder minimum - not if but when - will eviscerate the church of global warming.


The sun today, hardly any sunspots for months:



The "Alarmists" will also blame the lack of sunspots on Global Warming, oops, Climate Change too!
341   anon_aa05b   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 9:30am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

So many climate researchers on here. So many experts. Why not post up the universities that you’re tenured at so we can check your standing? Or how about linking us to your body of work?
342   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 9:51am   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Sniper says
No, they want to make money and lower shipping costs.... duh...


Thus you are accepting the prediction of an ice free arctic in the summer so these companies can make more money and lower shipping costs duh.

Brother it is nice to see someone on the right embracing the fact of climate change.
343   HEYYOU   ignore (6)   2018 Jan 7, 10:11am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

What the hell does the Pentagon know?

“A changing climate will have real impacts on our military and the way it executes its missions,” the Defense Department concluded in the 2014 report. “The military could be called upon more often to support civil authorities … in the face of more frequent and more intense natural disasters.”

"The DoD has found space to maneuver by separating the argument of climate change from the threats that more extreme sea states, wind and flooding can generate. Essentially, the DoD is moving forward by leaving the semantics of climate change to others."

Anyone is welcome to prove that the military is wrong.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/09/12/pentagon-is-still-preparing-for-global-warming-even-though-trump-said-to-stop/
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/612710/
344   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 10:16am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

DoofusRicky says
the prediction of an ice free arctic in the summer

The reality is much different.
How many ships transited the northwest passage in 2017? Thousands? Hundreds? Dozens?
The northwest passage is a sailors dream. It will save thousands of dollars in shipping costs if the ice melts. IF the ice melts.
For now the NW passage is just a dream. The reality is less than 300 ships have transited the passage EVER. Unless we get more warming the NW passage will remain a dream.
345   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 10:20am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Onvacation says
Unless we get more warming the NW passage will remain a dream.


The point that you so clearly missed because of endless unfounded accusations of not having your questions answered was that companies are investing many millions of dollars on a future Northwest Passage as well as routes directly over the top of the Earth. You cannot be right and shipping companies also be right. One of you is very wrong however it's only the shipping companies that are willing to put huge sums of money on the line.
346   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 12:09pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Brother Onvacation please answer my question. Oh dear I have forgotten to ask a question. Brother do you have an explanation for why shipping companies in every country, most especially China, are willing to take such huge long-term risks on an eventuality you have heatedly argued is not going to happen?
347   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 2:21pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote      

How did we get to debating if and when the northwest passage will be a viable shipping route. Does anyone want to argue that? Start a new thread.
348   TwoScoopsPlissken   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 7, 2:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

How much CO2=How much temperature increase.

If CO2 = X ppm, then Earth Temp = Y Degrees. With Backtests, since we have about 100 years of direct temp measurements globally, and also know the CO2 levels to a high degree of confidence.

If Modelers can't answer that, their Model is worthless.
349   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 7, 2:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (4)     quote      

Onvacation says
How much has the temp and sea level risen in the last hundred years?
How much did the temp rise between 2015 (2nd hottest year) and 2016 ( hottest year EVER)?
How can they measure such a small increase over the entire globe?
If the earth is warming why is the hottest temp ever recorded over a century old?
What is the ideal temp for human habitation?

Answers so far:
The earth has risen less than 2 degrees and the sea has risen less than one foot over the last 150 years.
The temperature rose 4/100 of one degree plus or minus 8/100 of one degree between 2015, the second hottest, and 2016 the hottest year ever. The numbers for 2017 are still being processed.
How 4/100 of one degree measured all over the world can be accurate or even claimed as record warm when the temp very well have been 4/100 of a degree colder.
Rew says

Onvacation says
If the earth is warming why is the hottest temp ever recorded over a century old?


You confuse a single data point with a net trend.

If I have a sheet of steel, 1 inch thick and 1 square mile surface area, and I raise the temperature of a single localized point on that plate to 100 degrees ... how much energy did that take? What if I raised the entire surface 40 degrees over the entire plate? How much energy did that take? How much net heat is transferred to the air as the plate cools to the air temperature in each case?

Correct me if I am wrong Rew, but I believe the argument is just because most of the record highs were recorded last century doesn't mean the WHOLE world is not warmer now.
The only one ever to brave an answer to the ideal human habitation quesion was Dan from Florida; he wanted 2 degrees cooler.
350   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 8, 7:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Onvacation says
The only one ever to brave an answer to the ideal human habitation quesion was Dan from Florida; he wanted 2 degrees cooler.

@iwog Now that your back, can you answer what you think earths ideal temperature for human habitation would be?
Dan thinks it should be a couple degrees cooler. I think a couple of degrees warmer would open up the northwest passage and make more land arable.
Are you willing to make a prediction?
351   anon_61c8a   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 8, 7:50am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

@Onvacation, what is the ideal place for a human to vacation?
352   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 8, 2:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (3)     quote      

anon_61c8a says
@Onvacation, what is the ideal place for a human to vacation?

There is no ideal. Humans can have fun in a wide range of places.
I like to go windsurfing in maui and skiing in Colorado. My wife's family owns an island in northern Maine so we spend a week there every summer.
Humans are adaptable.
353   anon_aa05b   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 8, 8:31pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Onvacation says
anon_61c8a says
@Onvacation, what is the ideal place for a human to vacation?

There is no ideal. Humans can have fun in a wide range of places.
I like to go windsurfing in maui and skiing in Colorado. My wife's family owns an island in northern Maine so we spend a week there every summer.
Humans are adaptable.

They are “adaptable” in the current numbers only because all necessary goods and services are brought to them. Millions of people don’t currently live in the desert or wherever you care to pick because it is locally sustainable, so I’m not clear on what point you are/have been trying to make.
354   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 9, 6:13am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

anon_aa05b says

They are “adaptable” in the current numbers only because all necessary goods and services are brought to them. Millions of people don’t currently live in the desert or wherever you care to pick because it is locally sustainable, so I’m not clear on what point you are/have been trying to make.

Where would you rather live in a tropical rain forest or an arctic tundra?
The point is the globe is not warming catastrophically.
355   anon_61c8a   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 9, 7:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

You picked a small number of vacation destinations as places to visit. There are huge areas that would be absolute shit to live in. So, humans are quite adaptable, and some like some places more than others, but some places are universally shitty.
The question becomes, what happens with global warming at 1 oC, 2 oC, 3 oC, 4 oC, 5 oC? What happens to areas that are currently nice places to live? Do some of them turn uninhabitable? How many? Does it cause civil unrest on top of local suffering? With only 1 oC, we are already seeing some new weather patterns that may be caused by the warming that we have seen. We know that sea levels do not change linearly with temperature. The increase slowly until they reach a tipping point and then they increase dramatically. That's kind of obvious from the historic record.
Do we just believe you when you proclaim that there is nothing to worry about? Our military cares a lot about it. People are betting on an ice free arctic with real money (shipping lane discussion).
Many scientists around the world are putting their efforts into developing alternative energy systems, mitigating the effects of global warming, and understanding the risks. That only happens because people take the problem seriously. If everyone put their heads in the ground and ignored the problem, we'd be fucked (more so than we may already be).
356   anon_13e7f   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 9, 7:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Onvacation says
Where would you rather live in a tropical rain forest or an arctic tundra?


Neither, and using a false choice fallacy to try to win an argument is childish.

Here is a question for you:

Do you believe that releasing CO2 that has been sequestered over tens of millions of years in a few short decades will have ZERO effect? If so, why? If you believe there will be an effect, what do YOU think it will be?
357   anon_403c8   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 9, 7:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

Onvacation says
anon_aa05b says

They are “adaptable” in the current numbers only because all necessary goods and services are brought to them. Millions of people don’t currently live in the desert or wherever you care to pick because it is locally sustainable, so I’m not clear on what point you are/have been trying to make.

Where would you rather live in a tropical rain forest or an arctic tundra?
The point is the globe is not warming catastrophically.

Non sequitur.
358   Sniper   ignore (10)   2018 Jan 9, 9:03am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote      

Onvacation says
Where would you rather live in a tropical rain forest or an arctic tundra?
The point is the globe is not warming catastrophically.


This is why the whole Global Warming hype and hoax is such a joke, and why the 1 degree rise in temps over 130 years is a nothing burger.

People live full time in the Arctic tundra and people live full time in tropical rain forests. It's amazing how people can adapt.

But the "Alarmists" want billions of dollars thrown at "fixing" Global Warming because the temperatures changed 0.04 degrees in a year.
359   Onvacation   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 7:30am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote      

anon_403c8 says

Where would you rather live in a tropical rain forest or an arctic tundra?
The point is the globe is not warming catastrophically.

Non sequitur.

The point you seem to have missed is that rain forests, or any unfrozen land, is better than an icy desert.
360   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 10, 9:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote      

Onvacation says
The point you seem to have missed is that rain forests, or any unfrozen land, is better than an icy desert.

The point that you fail to address is that a hot desert is inhospitable and no large populations have ever thrived there. In addition, talking about extremes is not what is important. Yes, a small number of humans can live in the arctic, rainforest or desert. The real question is what happens at the margins. What economic impact will flooding coastal areas have on our country? Warmer does not equal better for growing crops. It takes water and excess heat kills corn. What happens to populations and countries that become uninhabitable or partly uninhabitable?

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