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Why Climate Change is a Religion and not Science https://www.topbuzz.com/@malcolmshaw/why-climate-change-is-a-religion-and-not-science-CgJAbZ6OOVo

By Malcolm following x   2018 Jan 10, 2:26pm 4,484 views   94 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


An article that I wrote on TopBuzz exploring some of my own observations.

https://www.topbuzz.com/@malcolmshaw/why-climate-change-is-a-religion-and-not-science-CgJAbZ6OOVo

I have put out an internet challenge that no one seems to want to take me up on. It is simple. I am agnostic. While I technically fall into the "skeptic" or "denier" category, it is simply because I question the methodology and the politics of man-made climate-change science. I am open to being convinced, but no one seems to be able to provide anything other than future predictions. So, for the Patrick.net crowd, the same challenge I have made before, to please show me one prior doom and gloom climate change prediction that actually came true, or to show me a past and present picture demonstrating rising sea level.

I know the trolls and vicious defenders of man caused climate change will just assume that I haven't looked up the readily available evidence for climate change. Before you attack me, be forewarned that I have probably got considerable evidence to support being skeptical.

Here is a GIF I made of a famous landmark in San Diego. The Coronado Bridge was built in the late 60s. You will notice that the high waterline is pretty much in the same place. I live on the Pacific Coast. It has been alleged that sea level rise is magnified on this coast, yet I can also show pictures much older that again have no noticeable difference on the high water line.



Here is a 130 year span showing no rise at La Jolla Cove.


Source: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/05/01/if-sea-level-was-rising-wouldnt-someone-have-noticed/

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15   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 4:53pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote        

DoofusRicky says
WookieMan says
Why is there another climate change thread?


Brother wookie just between you and I, I will secretly confess that this is not in all probable fact a climate change thread. It is a rather poorly constructed but still curious psychology experiment.


Ah yes, the insults start when someone is challenged. That is why I call it a religion. You are not the first to balk at a real debate on the issue.

16   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 4:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Fyi, sea levels vary at different places. They vary as a function of seasons and tides. And so far there has been very limited sea level rises.
Showing pictures like this is silly.
17   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
Ah yes, the insults start when someone is challenged.


I am sincerely sorry you feel this way but I spent an inordinate amount of time breaking down your claim, even to the smallest pixel. Your proof does not hold up even with a basic academic analysis. The base of the Coronado Bridge that you posted is 10 pixels tall. To see a feature in a 10 pixel photograph, that feature must be equal to or greater than 1 pixel. Assuming 5in is one pixel, the base of the Coronado Bridge is apparently four feet high.

This absolutely cannot be true since the tidal range greatly exceeds this but more importantly it would mean the bridge itself is around 60 feet high in the photograph. I simply don't know where else to take this once you ignore the case I made and just say yeah I think I can see 5 in.

For your purposes would it help if I told a fib and said there were 20 pixels in the base? Please tell me what else I need to look at.
18   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
It will be a dead horse soon. Enough people are speaking up.


Funny, I've heard denialists make that claim for 20 yrs. But the opposite is happening:
- the science is ever more certain.
- direct measures are showing ever clearer warming, ever thinner ice-sheets , melting glaciers, increased ocean heat-content, etc...
- Russians, China and other countries are investing massively in the arctic.
- Prices of oceanfront properties in Florida are affected.
Effects are more tangible by the year, but some people just don't want to be bothered with reality.
19   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Like I said, the challenge is out there. If you think there really is a consensus and the science is even more certain you should look up Climategate. Here is a little more education for you.

21   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
Like I said, the challenge is out there


Brother Malcolm are you making a challenge when you are not willing to take a challenge yourself?

I humbly and sincerely challenge your claim that 5in can be resolved on any of your photographs. I believe 5 in is less than a single wave in the water. I challenge you to give us some good reasons why these photographs are evidence of a water level in stasis.

Would this be fair?
22   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

It would be, except that you are making the claim, and some claim as much as a foot rise. I put the challenge out there for you to prove sea level rise. My evidence, which is unscripted, unaltered, certainly does not show sea level rise. Yes, I believe you would see the width of a hand in the photographs. For the Cove you can find a spot and put the cursor on it.

No, your logic is strange, why would I take a challenge as a condition to you accepting a challenge. Go find the smoking gun, I told you I am open to the proof. Show me the proof.

So far you've done two things, you said you were up to show me visual proof of sea level rise over time and then said that the sea level rise isn't noticeable because of photo resolution, understand, people are claiming entire islands have already been covered by rising sea level, and you are worried about a pixel?
23   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 10, 5:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

This is pretty funny. The premise here is that if (1) someone ignores the fact that you cannot resolve 5 inches in the picture and (2) ignores the fact that tides vary as pointed out already and (3) assume that a few point visual measurements are more accurate than the average of many measurements around the world over decades, then we can prove that climate change is a fraud.
Who is following the evidence and who is following blinded by cognitive bias again? Will this thread make it to 100 comments? Will Malcom claim at that point that nobody has answered his question? I'm titillated.
24   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:28pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BTW, if you are so sure about sea level rise maybe you can tell me how it is calculated. Actually, let me tell you, it is called the budgeting method. Basically they look at satellite images and estimate where all the known water is then estimate what it is doing. Observations proved no sea level rise and the precise method of using a satellite to lock onto a beacon on a buoy didn't get the desired results so those results are inconclusive and not used.
25   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Malcolm says
DoofusRicky says
WookieMan says
Why is there another climate change thread?


Brother wookie just between you and I, I will secretly confess that this is not in all probable fact a climate change thread. It is a rather poorly constructed but still curious psychology experiment.


Ah yes, the insults start when someone is challenged. That is why I call it a religion. You are not the first to balk at a real debate on the issue.



Thx interesting debate there.
26   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:30pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

FNWGMOBDVZXDNW says
This is pretty funny. The premise here is that if (1) someone ignores the fact that you cannot resolve 5 inches in the picture and (2) ignores the fact that tides vary as pointed out already and (3) assume that a few point visual measurements are more accurate than the average of many measurements around the world over decades, then we can prove that climate change is a fraud.
Who is following the evidence and who is following blinded by cognitive bias again? Will this thread make it to 100 comments? Will Malcom claim at that point that nobody has answered his question? I'm titillated.


It is so easy to prove me wrong. It just takes real evidence. You stepped up and can't produce it.
27   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
It would be, except that you are making the claim,


Sir you are obviously mistaken. I made no claim. Scientists say the ocean rise is 5 in. They may be right and they may be wrong but accepting for argument I am a neutral party, your pictures do not stand alone as the default position. You posted them with a positive claim that the sea level could not have changed based on your photographic evidence.

All I am doing with any and all respect due is rejecting your positive claim of 0 sea level rise. The photographs are not evidence of this. It does seem to be your quest to collect these, but 5 inches is a rather small measurement and proving it with a photograph of pixels measured in feet can never work. The second reason to reject these is the obvious difference in tides and how not getting the timing exactly right would disqualify the photos without even considering any other demerits..
28   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote        

I didn't say my pictures were proof of 0 sea level rise, I said they were evidence contradicting sea level rise. The whole premise of this is to allow anyone to provide me visual proof at any resolution that sea level has risen. No one has done so, yet they argue the point with me, in essence stepping up to a challenge to please show me where sea level has risen, with a visual.

I'm not disrespecting anyone's opinions, just show me the real proof.
29   DoofusRicky   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 5:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
I didn't say my pictures were proof of 0 sea level rise, I said they were evidence contradicting sea level rise.


I stand corrected. They are proof of the absence of sea level rise exceeding the pixel size of your photograph which as far as I can determine is well over a foot.

Fortunately for the warmist community, that isn't what scientists have measured.
30   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 10, 5:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

WookieMan says
I don't get what we're arguing.

Still a lot of ignorance out there.
31   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 6:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

DoofusRicky says
Malcolm says
I didn't say my pictures were proof of 0 sea level rise, I said they were evidence contradicting sea level rise.


I stand corrected. They are proof of the absence of sea level rise exceeding the pixel size of your photograph which as far as I can determine is well over a foot.

Fortunately for the warmist community, that isn't what scientists have measured.


LOL, the diplomatic side of me was going to at least propose that we concede it is not more than a foot. Yes, my evidence is merely putting it out there that I am consistently not seeing noticeable sea level change over decades. But that's cool, I had a similar discussion with an old friend, he asserted 2 1/2 inches over 150 years. These pictures are just for a baseline, and I really am open to looking at pictures showing the opposite. Like I also said, I am compiling images wherever I can as to not just have a few data points.
32   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 6:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Malcolm says
The whole premise of this is to allow anyone to provide me visual proof at any resolution that sea level has risen.

For example the "marégraphe" in Marseilles, is a tide gauge that kept records of sea level since 1883. It has a sophisticated mechanism to integrate the levels.
http://www.sonel.org/spip.php?page=maregraphe&idStation=1802 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00190-014-0728-6
You still won't see 20 cm difference on a picture.
33   Malcolm   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 6:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Well, I'll start caring about sea level rise when you can.
34   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 10, 6:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Malcolm says
Well, I'll start caring about sea level rise when you can.


Sure, and in the meantime, put your money where your mouth is and go buy a nice oceanfront property in Miami, since you are so sure it won't be affected.
I hear they sell at a discount.
35   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (3)   2018 Jan 10, 6:53pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

WookieMan says
I don't get what we're arguing.


You giving 15% of your paycheck to Al Gore.
36   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 10, 7:13pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Satoshi_Nakamoto says
WookieMan says
I don't get what we're arguing.


You giving 15% of your paycheck to Al Gore.

I don't follow. What 15% of my paycheck?

I don't care if the scientist are wrong or right. I live by the fact we're all going 6 feet under anyway. Enjoy life. Don't change your oil and dump it on the front lawn. Don't start a tire fire. Be energy efficient if it works for you. Those types of things.

A speeding rock can hit our planet and there's nothing we can do about it. We'd all be dead tomorrow. A super volcano. Whatever. If climate change is real, there's nothing we can do about it anyway. Grab a drink or joint and have fun... but don't be a dead beat.
37   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (3)   2018 Jan 10, 7:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

WookieMan says
Satoshi_Nakamoto says
WookieMan says
I don't get what we're arguing.


You giving 15% of your paycheck to Al Gore.

I don't follow. What 15% of my paycheck?


Because Al needs the money.
38   FortWayne   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 10, 7:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote        

Global warming hoax was sales bullshit to sell more solar panels and electric vehicles. Coincidence that billionaire democrats are selling those!!!
39   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 10, 7:23pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Satoshi_Nakamoto says
WookieMan says
Satoshi_Nakamoto says
WookieMan says
I don't get what we're arguing.


You giving 15% of your paycheck to Al Gore.

I don't follow. What 15% of my paycheck?


Because Al needs the money.

Al is a fat fuck. Ignore him. If he cared about the environment he'd stop eating 3 burgers a day which in effect eliminates his neck. You can't take a no-necker seriously, you know that, right?
40   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Jan 10, 8:22pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Does anyone know if the Russian troll farms are getting involved with this topic now ?

Fossil fuels are more important to certain Russian oligarchs than even the Koch brothers.

Fascinating thread. I guess I'm possibly an idiot for deferring to the experts when they tell me the earth is not nearly flat, or that sea level has gone up by however much it has. No offense, but it takes someone very disrespectful of academia and scholarship in general, not to mention critical thinking as thing that exists, to think that sea level changes (something so incredibly easy to verity) have not been verified in thousands of places, six ways from Sunday.

Maybe it's comedy ? Showing photos to show sea level hasn't gone up 5 inches, when tide is something like 24 inches. Wtf ?
41   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (3)   2018 Jan 10, 8:53pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_08dee says
Does anyone know if the Russian troll farms are getting involved with this topic now ?


Always have been. Their main effort was in peddling "fracking is baaaaad", "pipelines are daaaangerous", "tar sands development is hooorrrible" kind of shit. Because grows of US domestic oil and gas production and subsequent lowering of prices and push into the markets they deem theirs is threatening one of the two legs the fucking "Energy Superpower" stands on.
42   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 11, 6:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

WookieMan says
Fascinating thread. I guess I'm possibly an idiot for deferring to the experts when they tell me the earth is not nearly flat

You're not an idiot.
anon_08dee says
or that sea level has gone up by however much it has

It has. But it is not covering Manhattan.

Maybe you have been duped by the alarmists?
43   Onvacation   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 11, 7:33am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

anon_08dee says
Maybe it's comedy

Maybe.
Some alarmists are religious in their zeal.
44   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 7:42am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Onvacation says
WookieMan says
Fascinating thread. I guess I'm possibly an idiot for deferring to the experts when they tell me the earth is not nearly flat

You're not an idiot.

Not my quote, but thanks for the kind words.
45   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 Jan 11, 7:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

What the Libbies should collect from your paycheck in order to save us from climate swings
WookieMan says
Why is there another climate change thread? These should be banned. If the science is right all of us die and so do our kids. If it's wrong, we all die at some point anyway. I don't get what we're arguing
46   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 8:05am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BlueSardine says
What the Libbies should collect from your paycheck in order to save us from climate swings

Libbies & Repubs are getting our money one way or another. Fight the good fight I suppose. I just don't know why we go back and forth here with sometimes 2 or 3 of these threads a week on patnet knowing that NO ONE here is going to change their position.

First world countries are naturally going towards cleaner energy from my perspective. I think or would hope everyone here agrees that's a good thing. Deniers included. So on a per capita basis we're likely reducing emissions, this is good.

On the other hand the believers think there's something that can be done about it. There's no magic bullet to have a net decrease in pollution/emissions/CO2. While our per capita pollution has decreased, we've just added more people to the world that keep the overall levels the same or increasing. Besides population control or outright banning of a polluting activities and massively lowering the quality of life, I've yet to hear to logical solution to all this.

Do I want my kids to live on a polluted, disgusting earth, no. Do I want them to be forced to live a certain way by our government to try and reverse something that is very likely not reversible, no. This is all I'm getting at. Enjoy life. You've only got one and arguing about something where there is literally never going to be a winner is kind of a fools errand.

I rest my case on these climate change threads. Have fun with the back and forth though I suppose. Both sides aren't changing the path that we're on.
47   justme   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 8:20am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

The Greenhouse Effect (GE) is established science, the 1st law of thermodynamics (1LT) is established science. Global warming (GW) follows directly from GE and 1LT.

People who argue against GW are arguing against basic physics. They are ignorants, and a large fraction of them are ideologically driven ignorants. There is no other way to say it.

https://patrick.net/post/1313015/2018-01-10-co2-greenhouse-effect-in-details
48   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 9:00am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Science is not truth. Science is the process by which we attempt to find truth.

Anyone who thinks any science is “settled” clearly has no clue about what science even is!
49   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Jan 11, 9:05am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Does anyone know if the Russian troll farms are getting involved with this topic now ?

Fossil fuels are more important to certain Russian oligarchs than even the Koch brothers.

Fascinating thread. I guess I'm possibly an idiot for deferring to the experts when they tell me the earth is not nearly flat, or that sea level has gone up by however much it has. No offense, but it takes someone very disrespectful of academia and scholarship in general, not to mention critical thinking as thing that exists, to think that sea level changes (something so incredibly easy to verity) have not been verified in thousands of places, six ways from Sunday.

Maybe it's comedy ? Showing photos to show sea level hasn't gone up 5 inches, when tide is something like 24 inches. Wtf ?
50   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 9:07am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_08dee says
Does anyone know if the Russian troll farms are getting involved with this topic now ?


If they are, it's not from Russia itself. I have banned the whole country by IP address ranges. Not because of political posts, just because of relentless spam.
51   justme   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 9:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
Anyone who thinks any science is “settled” clearly has no clue about what science even is!


Its hard to imagine that anyone will argue against the most basic and fundamental physical laws, but apparently some will.
52   justme   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 9:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_08dee says
Fascinating thread. I guess I'm possibly an idiot for deferring to the experts when they tell me the earth is not nearly flat, or that sea level has gone up by however much it has. No offense, but it takes someone very disrespectful of academia and scholarship in general, not to mention critical thinking as thing that exists, to think that sea level changes (something so incredibly easy to verity) have not been verified in thousands of places, six ways from Sunday.

Maybe it's comedy ? Showing photos to show sea level hasn't gone up 5 inches, when tide is something like 24 inches. Wtf ?


If it is a comedy, it is a tragical farce. Not accounting for time variation of local sea levels due to tidal conditions is a glaring mistake. But that is not going to stop the ideologically-driven and scientifically ignorant. And by the way, the high-waterline does not establish what percentage of the time the water is at what level, nor is it accurate enough to establish anything significant from these far-away photos.

But: back to basics: Greenhouse effect and the laws of thermodynamics imply global warming. End of story.
53   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 11, 9:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

What better than an unmeasurable and unsee-able metric lost in the normal tidal variations to prove Global Warming.
54   justme   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 11, 9:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Ceffer says
What better than un unmeasurable and unsee-able metric lost in the normal tidal variations to prove Global Warming.


(sarc) What better than than a highly inaccurate methodology to "prove" that sea levels did not rise?

Greenhouse effect and the laws of thermodynamics imply global warming. End of story.

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