« prev   random   next »

7
3

Does Anyone Object to a Merit Based Immigration System?

By NewGuy following x   2018 Jan 11, 9:50pm 3,900 views   62 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


It seems like a good idea to me. My ideal system would be take all Visa applicants in a given year, stack rank them based on objective criteria like college degrees, iq tests, special skills, dollar value of employment offers, etc. Accept the top 1% (or whatever percent we want based on current needs). Immigrants could bring immediate family (spouse and children) all would get green cards and eventually citizenship. Disabled parents could be brought in on non work visas if the kid is a family type that wants to watch out for them. Siblings and cousins are out of luck but can enjoy brief visits on tourist visas.

We would reserve a small number of visas, 10k per year for refugees, but again stack ranked by hardship level, can only bring immediate family, etc.

No other visas allowed.

Does anyone have a good argument against a largely merit based system like this?

I'm going to list the objections I have heard so far to a merit based system, let me know if I'm missing anything:
- Un-American
- Current laws not enforced, if they were, current system is good enough
- Current system is good enough
- Implementation detail problems, how to rank immigrants, how to enforce / administer system, cost / complexity of system
- We don't need any new immigrants
- Too many Asians

« First    « Previous    Comments 23 - 62 of 62    Last »

23   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 10:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

anon_65b28 says
New guy - I appreciate the attempt at serious discourse.

I don't necessarily have an objection to merit based but you can argue it is against early American principals vis-a-Vis the mantra of the Statue of Liberty "give me your tired your poor"... that sorta shit.

In that vein, maybe I am a softie in my old age but I really do sympathize with people seeking asylum due to some regime change in their forlorn country such that if they stay, they will be killed. Point being I would like to allow SOME immigration based more on humanitarian desires vs straight merit (perhaps the most meritorious of the asylum seekers).


Agree with you 100% on the refugee thing that's why I put into the proposal a refugee visa quota. Not sure I would even have it be merit based, seems to me you should do it based on amount of oppression, if that is possible to even rank.

And it does go against the statue of liberty, but I think times have changed since the 1800s. Government provides social services (badly) and that costs money. We need to be selective who we let in otherwise the feeble safety net we have will collapse.
24   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 10:20am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anon_1fe2e says
NewGuy says
It doesn't matter where you are born or who your parents are, if you are smart and work hard you can achieve your dreams.

That would be lovely if it were true. It clearly isn't.


Well at least lets make our immigration system be that way.
25   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 10:33am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Immigration should be merit based AND relative to the unemployment level AND national home ownership. A small reserve for the true political refugees, but diverse and not all from one country like the disaster that was the Somali settlement in Minnesota.


This.
Exactly.

Your proposal is fairly close, but keep this statement from TwoScoops in mind.
26   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 11:09am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
TwoScoopsPlissken says
Immigration should be merit based AND relative to the unemployment level AND national home ownership. A small reserve for the true political refugees, but diverse and not all from one country like the disaster that was the Somali settlement in Minnesota.


This.
Exactly.

Your proposal is fairly close, but keep this statement from TwoScoops in mind.


I agree with this. I didn't go into specifics on how we determine the % of the top immigrants we take. It would all be based on need, however that is determined. For the purpose of this discussion I don't really care. All I wanted to see was if anyone could come up with a good argument for why we shouldn't move towards a more merit based immigration system. I have literally never heard a good argument against it. Other then implementation concerns I have yet to hear one in this thread yet either.
27   someone else   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 11:37am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The reason that merit-based systems are politically unpopular with liberals is that they would result in more immigrants who compete with liberals for jobs. Most liberals have a college education. Perhaps they are liberal exactly because they were indoctrinated in college and told that they are the elite, the chosen, the people who deserve everything they have because of their own merit alone. Nothing to do with borders keeping out perhaps better-qualified individuals willing to work for less...

Liberals are quite happy to import people from the 3rd world with no education because those people are no threat to themselves, only a threat to native-born US citizens who don't have much education. And if those lesser-educated US citizens complain that their own wages are being forced down by mass immigration of the unskilled, it is easy enough to call them racists! to justify their continued suffering as a result of liberal immigration policies.

And I says this as a college educated former liberal.
28   Tim Aurora   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 11:42am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote   flag        

We ( Progressives) all support merit based system. The only question is, are you ( Right wing) guys ready for Asian influx. Asians are better ( not saying smarter) with college degrees and finding a stable job and are ready to work very hard for what they perceive as a bright western future . Money is not the only thing to bring them here but rather clean environment, big space ( big houses ) and relatively independent democratic norms.
29   MoneySheep   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 11:55am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I like the basic approach, but be more strict. For example, refugees must file application from home country and cannot walk-in to claim.

And, only citizens are allowed to buy real estate. Foreigners are barred from buying real esate. Land in US must belong to its citizen.
30   Tim Aurora   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 12:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

MoneySheep says
Land in US must belong to its citizen.


Why ?? Forget immigrants, I would let non residents buy our land if they want to.
31   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 12, 12:02pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MoneySheep says
And, only citizens are allowed to buy real estate. Foreigners are barred from buying real esate. Land in US must belong to its citizen.


I studied for a year in Austria in college and was quite shocked to hear that they had a law barring foreigners from owning land.

But now I think it's the right thing to do. Letting foreigners own land is giving them power over US citizens.
32   Tim Aurora   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 12:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

rando says
The reason that merit-based systems are politically unpopular with liberals is that they would result in more immigrants who compete with liberals for jobs.


We ( Progressives) all support merit based system. The only question is, are you ( Right wing) guys ready for Asian influx. Asians are better ( not saying smarter) with college degrees and finding a stable job and are ready to work very hard for what they perceive as a bright western future . Money is not the only thing to bring them here but rather clean environment, big space ( big houses ) and relatively independent democratic norms.

Remember Canada has a merit based system and it is all liberal.
33   someone else   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 12:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tim Aurora says
We ( Progressives) all support merit based system.


Of course probably some do, but the general tone is very much opposed:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/3/immigration-reform-is-demonized-by-liberals/
34   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 12:16pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'm not sure if (some) liberals oppose merit based immigration because of job competition or if it's just because they don't think it through. Hillary wanted to give every college grad a green card which would have been a terrible idea. I don't hear much concern from liberals about H1B which is suppressing wages for them according to studies.

I think a lot of liberals are opposed to immigration because Trump wants to curb it and Trump == Bad. Bernie wasn't a fan of H1B, although I think he was extremely hypocritical in being opposed to that program while wanting to grant amnesty to illegals. Maybe it is what you say Patrick, it seems extremely self interested to oppose H1B but support amnesty, especially as a white collar worker. At least open border folks are consistent.
35   someone else   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 12:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewGuy says
I think a lot of liberals are opposed to immigration because Trump wants to curb it and Trump == Bad.


I'd even go further, and say in their minds Trump === Bad. (javascript joke there)
36   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 1:27pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I wish this blog had a wiki post option that could be edited by any user. I edited the original post to include objections that I have heard so far, but it would be better if people could edit the list of objections themselves so I accurately state their position.
37   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Jan 12, 4:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I studied for a year in Austria in college and was quite shocked to hear that they had a law barring foreigners from owning land.

When was this as it's certainly not what I know from recent decades?
38   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 12, 4:56pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Lol, quite a while ago, in the 80's.
39   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 12, 4:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewGuy says
I wish this blog had a wiki post option that could be edited by any user. I edited the original post to include objections that I have heard so far, but it would be better if people could edit the list of objections themselves so I accurately state their position.


Sure, that would not be hard, but I don't have any rollback system to deal with vandalism.

What if someone just mangles your original post?
40   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jan 12, 5:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@NewGuy you know, that's a good idea and it would also not be hard to have a revisions table. So for any post, as soon as there is an edit by someone other than the original author, the previous version would get stored, and the original author could revert to any previous version.

Is it worth trying?
41   NewGuy   ignore (0)   2018 Jan 12, 8:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I’m sure given the proper UI a wiki would be easy to manage. The question is if the users here are actually interested in learning anything anymore or if they just want to argue.

There’s probably a ton of topics on this board where a sticky wiki page updated with the best info from the thread would be useful. The question would be how big of an issue the vandalism would be.
42   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Mar 13, 12:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

NewGuy says
It was a serious question. Why the downvote? If you downvoted would you please explain what you don't like about a merit based immigration system like I described?


@NewGuy - Downvotes are not based on logic and serious questions/commentary will almost always get one or more.
43   HEYYOU   ignore (26)   2019 Mar 13, 1:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

We have no immigration problem.
You fucking Republicans are allowing millions of illegal to roam the streets of America.
44   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 13, 2:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NewGuy says
3. I'm mostly looking to maximize tax dollars paid by immigrants because that is an objective measure that is super easy to calculate. But I'm not ruling out other factors like special skills or diversity. But I would say 80% of the weight would be for tax dollars.

This would be easy to enforce, too. Five years after gaining provisional residence in the US, IRS filings are checked. If the person doesn't measure up financially, they go home.
45   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 13, 2:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the RAISE act. Among other things, the bill proposes a "points" system similar to what is used by many countries right now. Trump has endorsed the bill. Trump has also created his own points system — it was on his website a few years ago but I can't seem to find it now.
46   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 13, 2:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says
Give us your incredibly HOTT! lesbians with IQs of 728; your wanton, nubile chicks with nine-figure bank accounts; your insatiable harlots who yearn for ever more schlong unless they're volunteering for three ways with REAL! AMERICA!n MEN! when they're not making us sandwiches.


And after all that, you still can't get any.
47   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 13, 2:23pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

A way to handle parent and other family member visits should be the same as all guest visas: a visa is only granted if it is accompanied by proof of private health insurance that covers the duration of the visa visit. Let the private insurance industry figure it out (and be on the hook for the profits and losses). The insurance should also be required to cover legal and incarceration costs if the visitor runs afoul of the law.
48   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 13, 2:30pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Give them an IQ test in their own language, then check for criminal history, then make sure they’re not a fucking Muslim. If they’re over 120 and pass the check, admit them. We can use them, and they’ll make more smart people.
49   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 13, 6:18pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
Give them an IQ test in their own language

No. Give them an IQ test in English, the language that should be made the official language of the USA and should be made the exclusive language of government and in-country commerce.
50   willywonka   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 13, 6:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The objections that I have heard go like this: Why should student loan indebted Americans be made to compete against immigrants from free education countries?
51   Reality   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 13, 9:16pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

It's not a good idea to let the government decide what the template of merit is based on paper degrees: should a Doctorate degree in Islamic scripture earn higher rating than a Master's degree in basket weaving? Why would either be rated higher than experience as a home-building or a chef without any degree?

IQ test in English and having a high minimum score requirement would be a better idea than edumacation degrees.

A better yet idea would be: $50k for processing fee, then $10k per year sur-tax on top of normal income tax till passing citizenship/naturalization test (which has English literacy and American history/civics tests) and becoming a citizen (usually after 5 years); no welfare of any kind before citizenship. Try it out for a few years, then if the new citizens have a higher than usual propensity to seek welfare after becoming citizens, increase the processing fees, sur-tax and duration before citizenship eligibility!

Also, being in jail or on welfare should automatically disqualify a person from voting during that time.
52   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Mar 14, 2:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
Give them an IQ test in English


That would eliminate a lot of native born Americans as well.

What is our official religion going to be ?

Are there going to be official new sources, required reading etc ?
53   Reality   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 14, 7:46am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Kakistocracy says
SunnyvaleCA says
Give them an IQ test in English


That would eliminate a lot of native born Americans as well.

What is our official religion going to be ?

Are there going to be official new sources, required reading etc ?


There are plenty certifiably retarded among the native born, afflicted with severe mental disorder among the native born, and carrying deadly contagious disease among the native born . . . doesn't mean immigration laws of the past, present or future should allow in any foreigners with those characteristics.

English literacy is an existing requirement for naturalization, and has been the case for over a century . . . as is the pledge of allegiance to the US Constitution (if you consider that a religion).
54   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 14, 8:08am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

After some thought, the IQ test being in English would be a better idea. We want to promote study of our language abroad as much as possible. If potential immigrants knew they’d need to be fluent in English to have a chance, they’d study up ahead of time. Or at least the smart ones would, and those are the ones we want.
And before anyone says that this method is racist against say, Africans who have a lower average IQ, let’s note the example of Nigerian immigrants. They consistently break the bar when it comes to assimilation, achievement in education, success in business, and admittance to select schools. In fact, they surpass Asians in the latter regard. It’s gotten to the point where Leftists who love to talk about how much black people are held back by systemic racism are just ignoring the hell out of any Nigerians because it totally breaks their narrative.
55   Tenpoundbass   ignore (15)   2019 Mar 14, 9:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I do if they claim we don't have trained people to fill those jobs, when I know for a damn solid fact. Microsoft for example hides all of the High Dive code examples and documentation from American servers but they are plastered all over Chinese, Russian and Indian servers.

Our education system is an elitist Philanthropy turnstile for their pampered kids to get a vanity degree. While real kids capable of learning what is required in the real world are left out and behind.

No more immigration until we build about 10 more major Cities to provide room and jobs for all of the Displaced people already have.
56   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Mar 14, 9:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Reality says
English literacy is an existing requirement for naturalization, and has been the case for over a century . . . as is the pledge of allegiance to the US Constitution (if you consider that a religion).


Oath Of Allegiance Changed: Pledge To Military Service No Longer Required For Naturalized Citizens - this was in 2015

Naturalized citizens will no longer have to pledge to defend the United States through military service when reciting the Oath of Allegiance if they have certain religious or conscientious objections, according to a new policy set out by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

https://www.ibtimes.com/oath-allegiance-changed-pledge-military-service-no-longer-required-naturalized-2021564
57   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Mar 14, 9:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Reality says
Also, being in jail or on welfare should automatically disqualify a person from voting during that time.


What the fuck has someone being on welfare got to do with someone's ability or eligibility to vote?

That's a good chunk of team Trump supporters in the fly over states and old rust belt cities - got to get them clean enough off the meth and crack to get to the polls first though.

Wrap that flag tighter around yourself and get a few more signed Trump bibles to sell on E-Bay - claim to be a patriot.
58   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 14, 10:01am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
After some thought, the IQ test being in English would be a better idea. We want to promote study of our language abroad as much as possible. If potential immigrants knew they’d need to be fluent in English to have a chance, they’d study up ahead of time. Or at least the smart ones would, and those are the ones we want.
And before anyone says that this method is racist against say, Africans who have a lower average IQ, let’s note the example of Nigerian immigrants. They consistently break the bar when it comes to assimilation, achievement in education, success in business, and admittance to select schools. In fact, they surpass Asians in the latter regard. It’s gotten to the point where Leftists who love to talk about how much black people are held back by systemic racism are just ignoring the hell out of any Nigerians because it totally breaks their narrative.


Great idea but would never happen because English is a colonialist, racist language.
59   WineHorror1   ignore (1)   2019 Mar 14, 10:35am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I do. Don't we think we have enough immigrants already? Shouldn't we give ourselves time to absorb them? If not, what does America become? This is a serious question.
60   Reality   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 15, 7:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kakistocracy says
Reality says
English literacy is an existing requirement for naturalization, and has been the case for over a century . . . as is the pledge of allegiance to the US Constitution (if you consider that a religion).


Oath Of Allegiance Changed: Pledge To Military Service No Longer Required For Naturalized Citizens - this was in 2015

Naturalized citizens will no longer have to pledge to defend the United States through military service when reciting the Oath of Allegiance if they have certain religious or conscientious objections, according to a new policy set out by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

https://www.ibtimes.com/oath-allegiance-changed-pledge-military-service-no-longer-required-naturalized-2021564


Conscience Objector exception does not invalidate the Oath of Allegiance requirement any more than Conscience Objector in the context of draft / selective service requirement.
61   Reality   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 15, 7:24am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kakistocracy says
Reality says
Also, being in jail or on welfare should automatically disqualify a person from voting during that time.


What the fuck has someone being on welfare got to do with someone's ability or eligibility to vote?

That's a good chunk of team Trump supporters in the fly over states and old rust belt cities - got to get them clean enough off the meth and crack to get to the polls first though.

Wrap that flag tighter around yourself and get a few more signed Trump bibles to sell on E-Bay - claim to be a patriot.


Here is a well known quote from Benjamin Franklin:

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic."

Are you asserting that Benjamin Franklin was a Trump fan?
62   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 15, 7:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kakistocracy says
What the fuck has someone being on welfare got to do with someone's ability or eligibility to vote?

"He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.”
Ben Franklin

« First    « Previous    Comments 23 - 62 of 62    Last »


about   best comments   contact   one year ago   suggestions