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All-American Tariffs Imposed

By TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy following x   2018 Jan 23, 8:07am 3,619 views   119 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


I'm SO HAPPY with this President.



WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump on Monday approved tariffs on imported solar-energy components and large washing machines in a bid to help U.S. manufacturers.

The Republican’s decision followed recommendations for tariffs by the U.S. International Trade Commission.

“The president’s action makes clear again that the Trump administration will always defend American workers, farmers, ranchers, and businesses in this regard,” U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer said in a statement announcing the decision.

Most imported solar modules will face an immediate tariff of 30 percent, with the rate declining before phasing out after four years. For large residential washing machines, tariffs will start at up to 50 percent and phase out after three years.

China accused Trump of jeopardizing the multilateral trading system by taking action on complaints under U.S. law instead of through the World Trade Organization.

“The U.S. side once again abused its trade remedy measures,” said a Commerce Ministry statement. “China expresses its strong dissatisfaction with this.”

Mexico said Trump’s decision not to exclude it from the measures was “regrettable.”

“Mexico will use all available legal resources in response to the U.S. decision to apply protections on Mexican washing machines and solar panels,” its Economy Department said in a statement.

https://apnews.com/5f68ab2a45124b29be5dfbfc474dde73/Trump-hits-solar-panels,-washing-machines-with-tariffs

US Trade Rep Robert "Lightsaber" Lighthizer:
https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2018/january/president-trump-approves-relief-us#

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80   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 11:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Tariffs and restricting immigration is the only way to do it.


Grade "A" Tumponian Bullshit of the Finest Quality.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
It makes companies train employees, pay them well to avoid turnover,


That's pretty funny too. No chance it was the Steelworkers Union, OCAW, Autoworkers Union, any other union including the Longshoreman's Union who love to hold the country hostage on a whim - pretty much anything decent that is out there today is a result of union activity including wages and benefits.
81   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 11:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
That's pretty funny too. No chance it was the Steelworkers Union, OCAW, Autoworkers Union, any other union including the Longshoreman's Union who love to hold the country hostage on a whim - pretty much anything decent that is out there today is a result of union activity including wages and benefits.



More confirmation that the Democrats have abandoned working America, and are more worried about those poor foreign multinational company importers
82   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 11:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Grade "A" Tumponian Bullshit of the Finest Quality.


"That's not an argument, that's mere contradiction."
"No it isn't."
"An argument is a series of ..."
83   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 11:50am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Before someone from the Trump camp jumps and runs with this...Missouri aluminum smelter to restart after tariff, utility relief

ARG will operate the smelter through Magnitude 7, a subsidiary named for a series of earthquakes in 1811 and 1812 in nearby New Madrid, Missouri.

In May 2017, the Missouri legislature approved a plan to allow large power utility customers including Magnitude 7 to negotiate cheaper electricity rates. The plan was aimed at encouraging a restart of the idled smelter and attracting electric-arc furnace steel makers to the state. Nucor Corp announced last month it would open a reinforcing bar “micro-mill” in Sedalia, Missouri, in 2019, providing about 250 full-time jobs.

Magnitude 7 said it was “prepared to move quickly on additional projects, including potentially the restart of the third and final potline of primary production capacity, if and when market conditions allow.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-aluminum/missouri-aluminum-smelter-to-restart-after-tariff-utility-relief-idUSKCN1GM011?il=0

Tarff relief no so much, utility rate relief - plenty.

For what it's worth this is another industry that isn't coming back to it's glory days. If you have some rudimentary knowledge of how these smelters work, they really need to be running off of their own power supply, not someone else's to be profitable and as ALCOA found out along with KAISER back in the 1980s even that isn't enough sometimes.
84   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 12:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Problem with your hypothesis is that several Mills just re-opened across the nation. Each one of these represents hundreds of good paying jobs.

Ohio
http://nbc4i.com/2018/03/08/republic-steel-planning-to-reopen-ohio-plant-after-pres-trump-announced-tariffs/
Illinois
https://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2018/03/07/trumps-tariff-leads-u-s-steel-to-reopen-big.html
South Carolina
http://www.live5news.com/story/13893076/georgetown-steel-mill-to-reopen

And yes, America's cheap electricity is a competitive advantage on China especially, where the average KwH is higher and less competitive.

Feux Follets says
For what it's worth this is another industry that isn't coming back to it's glory days


Why not? Canada is the #3 Aluminium Producer.

Do Canadians live in tin roof shacks, heating their homes with moose dung? Australia and Norway are also in the top 10. Those Aussies and Norwegians working 72 hour weeks in unheated dormitories? How about Iceland? Those Icelanders laboring under a whip with no pollution laws, as they make $1/hr?
85   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 12:09pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Problem with your hypothesis is that several Mills just re-opened across the nation. Each one of these represents hundreds of good paying jobs.


There is no problem with my hypothesis since it isn't a hypothesis - it's a fucking fact.

Those aluminum smelters that opened up don't add up to 1,000 jobs. Want to talk recovery, get ALCOA back to where they were 5-10 years ago - it's not going to happen.

Those hundreds of jobs are just that - hundreds of jobs and hundred more will disappear in other manufacturing industries if enough carve outs aren't done to the tariffs.

Granite City would have brought back people tariff or no tariffs but the U.S. Steel CEO is still munching on Trumps dick looking for more handouts to make up for their gross mismanagement.

One year in plus and still not one of those 11,000 "new" jobs, not recall of laid off workers, "new" jobs on the horizon.
86   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 12:11pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
And yes, America's cheap electricity is a competitive advantage


Obviously this is wasted - these smelters run on electricity, lots of it, We do not have cheap electricity all over. Canada has a abundance of dirt cheap hydro produced electric power.

Once again even with an in house power plant these are difficult to remain profitable and this is a cyclical industry as well.

No sense in wasting my time here arguing back and forth over the why when the how is not understood - suggest some time spent looking up the history of ALCOA, KAISER and other Aluminum producers and how this stuff is smelted.

You want good paying jobs, you need the unions and in this case for this industry the Steel Workers got greedy, the management lacked strategic vision and they both worked together to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
87   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 12:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Obviously this is wasted - these smelters run on electricity, lots of it, We do not have cheap electricity all over. Canada has a abundance of dirt cheap hydro produced electric power.


The US has some of the cheapest electric in the world, about half the OECD average.



This explains why Canada and Norway are big Aluminium producers, and why we are also.
88   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 12, 2:45pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

If Trump actually wanted jobs, he’d end Cannabis Prohibition as it’s ALREADY a 50+ Billion $ industry that would employ millions, stamp out the opioid epidemic, and cut the legs out from Big Pharma, all while restoring lonf lost Liberties and Freedoms- the definition of Making America Great Again

Instead, you have Trump fanboys doing extreme gymnastics over a few hundred jobs that come at a cost
89   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 3:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
The US has some of the cheapest electric in the world, about half the OECD average.


It isn't cheap enough - we have legacy plants or had legacy plants - they are/were not able to compete.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Energy Crisis and the Aluminum Industry: Can We Learn from History?

The devastating suddenness of the energy crisis in the western United States in 2000–2001 and its decimating cause of the shutdown effect on the aluminum smelters in the Northwest should not have been a surprise to the industry.

Indeed, while portentous signs of such a probability were apparent for more than a generation, they were overlooked or disregarded. In specific, the case of Kaiser Aluminum’s smelter at Chalmette, Louisiana, provides an instructive example of how changes in energy supply can lead to the shutdown and dismantling of one of the world’s largest aluminum reduction facilities of its time.

Will similar dismantlement be the fate of any of the Northwest aluminum smelters presently in a shutdown, standby status?

While the pending expiration of a very favorable natural gas supply contract was a major element in Kaiser Aluminum’s decision to close the Chalmette smelter in 1983, there obviously were other considerations involved, including a generally rough economic period for the aluminum industry.

Such business actions are never single-element, straightforward black and white decisions.

Still, in relation to current events pertinent to energy supply for today’s U.S. aluminum producers, the energy equation with regard to Chalmette’s situation is intriguing. Certainly there was energy supply available to extend the contract, but the new rate would have been enormously, perhaps prohibitively, expensive.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0202/binczewski-0202.html

A legacy plant built in 1902, high cost of everything including electricity, Alcoa will permanently close Massena East, end smelting at West plant and lay off up to 500 workers

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/news05/alcoa-will-permanently-close-massena-east-end-smelting-at-west-plant-and-lay-off-up-to-500-workers-20151102

Alcoa is closing the largest aluminum smelter in the US. Alcoa Inc said on Thursday it will permanently close its 269,000 tonne-per-year Warrick Operations smelter in Evansville, Indiana, by the end of first quarter, the latest in a string of U.S. smelter curtailments as producers struggle with tumbling prices.

Warrick is the largest operating aluminum smelter in the United States, and its closure will leave Alcoa with just one active smelter: 130,000 tonne-per-year Massena West, which was saved from closure with $70 million in aid from New York state.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-alcoa-plans-to-close-largest-us-aluminum-smelter-amid-tumbling-prices-2016-1

What the cost of the electricity doesn't kill, the labor contracts will.

These are self inflicted wounds and they are not coming back unless the prices go up or the government props them up.

How in the hell do you expect to stay competitive running a plant that hasn't seen any significant efficiency or other upgrades in decades ?

Not going to happen.

Chant MAGA until your blue in the face, chant WINNING as well to the same result - these jobs are not coming back in any meaningful way no matter how Breitbart spins it or the administration spins it or Potus lies outright and tells you they are.
90   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 4:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Chant MAGA until your blue in the face, chant WINNING as well to the same result - these jobs are not coming back in any meaningful way no matter how Breitbart spins it or the administration spins it or Potus lies outright and tells you they are.



The jobs are coming back. A very modest tariff and they're roaring back in mere days.

We're not going to repeat the failed trade policies of the past 25 years, which were originally sold as expanding US Manufacturing Jobs but were crafted by Multinationals, Foreign Government Lobbyists, and Wall Street to maximize labor arbitrage almost wholly at the expense of the US Middle Class.

When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing is stop digging.

If expensive Norway and Canada can make Aluminium, so can we. Hell, we're still in the top 10.

Maybe we need to build new plants, I'm down with that. Molten Salt Reactors, since nothing else will scale with future energy demand anyway. Maybe more Hydro, but we'll have to rocket past Environmental Challenges, funded by nefarious Multinational Interests who want to hamstring the Competition, ie the USA.

In fact, a ban on any lobbying by non-US Citizens and non-Domestic HQ'd companies would be a great step.

China is #1 Aluminium Producer, but do you know the only reason China is #1? Hint: Cough Cough

Middle America is in Crisis. We can no longer listen to the False Song of Globalism.
91   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 5:17pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Maybe we need to build new plants, I'm down with that.


What would it cost, at this turn of the new millennium into the 21st century, to build a typical aluminum reduction plant with an annual production capacity of 250,000 tonnes?

Based on the most recently completed plants, an estimated $1.5 billion would be required. Add to this the requirement that this new smelter have its own electricity-generating facilities to service it.

This would increase the installation cost by $300 million to $406 million. All of this assumes that a suitable site location can be found with the necessary support services.

Today, in the United States, it would take several years to get the required permits and clearance. This would involve the need for environmental impact reports, hearings with regulatory agencies and local and national governments, with no guarantee that final approval would not be challenged by appeals to court jurisdictions.

Such cumulative considerations, when combined with the availability of needed energy at a competitive price, lend some credence to the often heard statements that another aluminum smelter will not be built in the United States.

Hopefully, a successful breakthrough in the ongoing research to develop an inert anode and a more efficient electrolytic cell technology with greatly reduced energy usage will challenge this projection.

SINCE THE NUMBERS ABOVE ARE DATED, FEEL FREE TO ADD A COUPLE HUNDRED MILLION OR MORE.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0202/binczewski-0202.html

TwoScoopsPlissken says
We can no longer listen to the False Song of Globalism.


Nor can you sing the new false tune of Populism and Nationalism.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
If expensive Norway and Canada can make Aluminium, so can we. Hell, we're still in the top 10.


Not going to happen unless a company is willing to invest in a power plant large enough to supply the needs or cut one hell of a deal at the expense of everyone else with a utility for bargain basement rates.

Hydro power ? Keep dreaming.

The price of aluminum would have to go sky high and stay there - forever, for us to build new plants. A new smelter has about as much chance of happening as a new refinery unless there is some spectacular breakthrough in technology..

Corporations are too busy chasing the analysts expectations for the current quarters numbers to spend what is needed.

Ford's aluminum truck is already being bypassed by a composite material similar to the 787 on a competitors model. Need to do your own research on this one, not doing it for anyone.

Out steel industry and aluminum industries are not competitive with state of the art facilities.

Something has to give, lower electric costs, lower labor costs or both and then you can kiss those good high paying jobs with benefits goodbye
as well. Stock holders in utilities will not be keen to give up those dividends as well.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
The jobs are coming back. A very modest tariff and they're roaring back in mere days.


Less than a 1,000 jobs is not roaring back and failure to keep in mind this is very cyclical environment does not bode well for investing large sums of money in new facilities when you don't have to. Cheaper to buy it from someone else who has their money tied up in large capital expenditures which frees you to do something else.

We are not going back to the glory days of either industry and automobiles from the big three aren't either, same for mining.

Keep chanting - blue is a nice color, and remember the problem is with us, not them. And the "us" includes the GOP and Potus himself who has no problem using Chinese made steel in his buildings or keeping the family line of cheap trashy shit to continue to be made in China and other low cost venues.

Since spring is coming as well as Easter, might I suggest a lovely shade of Robins Egg Blue for your facial color at the end of your chanting MAGA and WINNING.

Save the black and blue for later on in the year - Halloween and all.
92   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 9:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Based on the most recently completed plants, an estimated $1.5 billion would be required. Add to this the requirement that this new smelter have its own electricity-generating facilities to service it.


And yet, the Chinese produce a shitload of aluminum, even though we're a far, far, wealthier country. And they've been building them like crazy over the past 25 years.

So not buying the cost excuse. If China can afford 'em, we definitely can.


Feux Follets says
Out steel industry and aluminum industries are not competitive with state of the art facilities.


You're stuck in the 80s. American factories weren't all that outdated to big with and now they simply aren't dated at all. Almost all steel made today - including in the USA - is created for very narrow, tailored usage.

In any case, Germany and Japan were making steel in the 19th Century, if they updated their plants... so can we.

And Chinese factories are full to the brim of "Gorky Machine Tools, All Power to the Soviet, 1948" and "Ten Thousand Years Health to Mao Tse Tung, 1954." ancient rusty behemoths. I know this because I used to follow a site that a few years ago that investigated Chinese companies trying to list on the NASDAQ. They'd do shit like slap a calculator on the side, paint it crisp white, and say, "You look, Gwai Lo. Modern Equipment! Digital! Our factory modern with World War 2 Lenning--- I mean brand new Japanese Roller straight from Yokohama!"

What do you think the Chinese do when they buy up US Mills? They take all the machinery they can possibly break down back to China to replace their ancient Soviet Equipment they brought in the 90s when Russia was a free-for-all.

Feux Follets says
Such cumulative considerations, when combined with the availability of needed energy at a competitive price, lend some credence to the often heard statements that another aluminum smelter will not be built in the United States.


Uh, they're building a brand new smelter.


MARSTON, Mo. — A new aluminum smelter will open in the Missouri Bootheel region in May, replacing roughly half of the jobs lost when another smelter shut down two years ago.

Magnitude 7 Metals plans to hire 450 people for its plant in the former Noranda Aluminum smelter in New Madrid County,
near the tiny town of Marston, about 150 miles south of St. Louis. CEO Bob Prusak said 140 people have already been hired. One line of the plant will open in May, and the s\econd in November.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/03/09/us/ap-us-aluminum-plant-greitens.html

Try giving it more than a few days. It took decades for Wall Street to trade off US jobs and factories for ownership of foreign assets and free capital flows.

Feux Follets says
Less than a 1,000 jobs is not roaring back and failure to keep in mind this is very cyclical environment does not bode well for investing large sums of money in new facilities when you don't have to. Cheaper to buy it from someone else who has their money tied up in large capital expenditures which frees you to do something else.


I count way over 1000 and it's not a week yet. And, these are just the direct jobs, not the knock-on effects from shipping the finished materials to servicing the trucks that ship the material, to the waitresses at the lunchonette near the mill.

Feux Follets says
Cheaper to buy it from someone else who has their money tied up in large capital expenditures which frees you to do something else.


Looking forward to the South Sea Crisis with the Chinese, where we build ships out of printed Goldman Sachs T&Cs from some MBS and some Century 21 Sale Signs.

"Ha! China, our new Tweet Destroyers launch 100 likes at you. And, our new AI Legal department is filing at the Hague with all kinds of charges. Bet your D-21 missile can't shoot that down. We'd throw plastic ninja stars at you, but realized the components in the 3D printer was all made in China, it's broke and we don't have the industrial base to fix it."

That aside, a country of 350M people can't prosper on nothing but office and coffee jobs.
93   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 9:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Nor can you sing the new false tune of Populism and Nationalism.


The word you're looking for Democracy, that the economic plan of the nation should serve the many and not just the Finance Sector and some credentialed professionals.

Not shorten their lives and weaken their standard of living. $300 laptop ain't much use when you're a laid off steelworker now stacking boxes P/T for $9/hr and can barely keep the lights on. Better that the laptop cost $900 and you make $15/hr.

Well, neoliberalism failed to bring the "High Tech Jobs of the Future" and thousands more tires sold TO Mexico, as Al Gore promised, but rather the exact opposite effect - all while he rolled his eyes at Perot.

Who was 100% correct, by the way, on trade and also the deficit spiraling out of control.

It cost us most of the $10T we added to our debt to bailout the banks and recover from the Great Financial Crisis. Now it's time to try a Manufacturing Bailout. We won't need to spend anything like what it cost to rescue the highly educated financial professionals from their 50- car pile up.
94   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 1:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
You're stuck in the 80s. American factories weren't all that outdated to big with and now they simply aren't dated at all. Almost all steel made today - including in the USA - is created for very narrow, tailored usage.


Uh-no, not stuck in the 1980s. Stuck in reality actually and yes the factories were and still are outdated.

Mini-mills for steel are the rage but the raw materials to process in those facilities has to come from somewhere now doesn't it and that includes slabs, rolls, etc. which come from mainstream large blast furnace type operations.

They also require something to power them and that would be ?

Electricity ! And the fucking shit is expensive and if the largest customer drops off line, guess who gets to pick up the tab ?

TwoScoopsPlissken says
if they updated their plants... so can we.


We can but we won't until it's too late. Companies won't spend money for anything that impedes the bottom line and keeping pace with the analysts expectations that is the name of the game until it isn't anymore because the company closed.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Uh, they're building a brand new smelter


Wrong yet again and the winning streak of being wrong continues. Personally I would get tired of being wrong so many times in one thread.

This did not get "built" in the last 12 months or so.



There is no "new" plant, repeat - THERE IS NO NEW PLANT !

There is an old plant that shut down due to high electric costs and now that a "deal" or "deals" have been cut, 450 or so jobs are coming back eventually on a couple of pot lines.

"Old" jobs paid around $25 an hour but not sure if that includes benefits rolled in. "New" jobs - not sure - not enough details.

Back to the "new" old plant :

"We've passed major tax cuts, repealed regulations at historic rates and lowered energy prices, all to ultimately help the American worker," U.S. Rep. Jason Smith, a Republican, said.

"Now, with the president's commitment to new, fairer trade deals, we are bringing back the domestic aluminum and steel industries and with it, jobs."

THE ABOVE SENTENCE WAS OBLIGATORY BULLSHIT ON BEHALF OF THE GOP AND POTUS. IT'S THE GOD DAMN COST OF ELECTRICTIY AND RAW MATERIALS (i.e. Bauxite)

State lawmakers in a special session last May approved a measure allowing large utility customers to negotiate lower electric rates in an effort to help replace the Noranda plant. Power to the new plant will be supplied by Associated Electric Cooperative Inc., which does not require regulatory approval from the Missouri Public Service Commission because it is not an investor-owned utility. But Parker Briden, a spokesman for Greitens, said the bill passed last year "kept the project viable and moving forward."

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/new-missouri-aluminum-smelter-will-hire-employees/article_d484b44c-cf48-52e1-9db2-4aa6600a47c1.html

On the electric rates:

Ameren moves to end contract with New Madrid smelter

http://www.semissourian.com/story/2201567.html/

Decent reading on the Noranda Facility - complete history actually. By the way the Noranda facility in Gramercy Louisiana isn't doing well either.

Noranda Aluminum closure marks the end of an era in the Missouri Bootheel.

"People in the region wanted to believe this time was just another idle threat from a company looking for concessions on electricity prices or wages".

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/noranda-aluminum-closure-marks-the-end-of-an-era-in/article_335027a8-2a8b-591f-9f9c-aaabbffab0a0.html

Don't like Robins Egg Blue, how about Sky Blue ?

Now let's try this again.

The problem is us, not them.

We have a management problem in this country

We have a greed problem in this country that works hand in hand with the management problem

Profits come before everything else - everything including jobs, since the executives will always come out just fine while the rank and file get farther and farther behind.

These are self inflicted wounds that could have been avoided.

It's the cost of electricity and raw materials (Gramercy Plant) as well as the labor contract.

The mini steel came because of the lower electricity costs as well.

The "tariffs" are to string along the naïve base.

Last time - the cost of electricity is the primary make or break

Don't like blue, how about teal ?
95   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 9:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says

They also require something to power them and that would be ?

Electricity ! And the fucking shit is expensive and if the largest customer drops off line, guess who gets to pick up the tab ?


And guess who has the 2nd highest electric output in the world, as well as the 3rd cheapest electric of the OECD?



Consider that China has 3x the people but nowhere near 3x the Electric Capacity. So per capita, we would easily beat China in Electric Generation. In fact, China produces less electricity per capita than ... Surinam or Barbados or Romania and a host of other countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Energy/Electricity/Consumption/Per-capita

The US Kwh per person is almost 500% more than China's KwH per person.

And yet China is a top Aluminium and Steel producer.

Sorry, the "Not Enough Electric" excuse doesn't fly.
96   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 9:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

And of course, if you love the environment you want your steel and aluminium made in the USA, since China's electric is overwhelmingly (72%) Coal Burning Plants.

I also caught this from your article, which is really about how wonderful the Aluminium Plant re-opening is and that the state is working to help them and other companies negotiate better rates:

Greitens said in November that the new law also proved beneficial when Nucor, the largest U.S. steel producer, announced it was opening a micro-mill in the Sedalia area, creating 250 jobs.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/new-missouri-aluminum-smelter-will-hire-employees/article_d484b44c-cf48-52e1-9db2-4aa6600a47c1.html

Wait, they're opening a micro-mill for steel nearby as well?

But that's ... impossible!!!
97   HEYYOU   ignore (13)   2018 Mar 13, 9:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

The only problem with tariffs is that Trump will exempt everyone.

Bucket of shit Administration.
98   zzyzzx   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 10:13am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
They also require something to power them and that would be ?

Electricity ! And the fucking shit is expensive and if the largest customer drops off line, guess who gets to pick up the tab ?


At the steel mill that I used to work at, Bethlehem Steel Sparrows Point, MD, sure electricity was used in the plant, but IIRC the fuel used to heat up the ore was coal converted into coke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace

Now at a mini-mill, yes, they use electricity.
99   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 11:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Sorry, the "Not Enough Electric" excuse doesn't fly.


Never said there wasn't enough - just not enough at the right price. Very key element - the price.

zzyzzx says
Bethlehem Steel Sparrows Point, MD, sure electricity was used in the plant, but IIRC the fuel used to heat up the ore was coal converted into coke.


Quite correct.

In an Aluminum Smelter however it's all electric and if they are producing their own via natural gas as in the case of Kaiser Aluminum in Chlamette, Louisiana and it gets too expensive, you have a problem.

If they are purchasing electric from a utility and the long term contract for negotiated rates expires and a new deal can not be reached - yuuggee problem.

If you also have a labor contract designed to kill via the Steelworkers Union - it's called a double whammy.

The Steelworkers Union did as much damage as the cost of electricity but at the end of the day it all goes back to management.

Sparrows point is also closed, a legacy plant that could not remain profitable, or at least profitable enough for Wall Street. Same with the steel mills in the Lehigh Valley, Pittsburg, Birmingham, Lorain, want me to keep going ?

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Wait, they're opening a micro-mill for steel nearby as well?

But that's ... impossible!!!


It would be if there had not been a renegotiation in the electric rates available to large industrial customers.

Guess who picks up the slack for the utilities when these deal are cut ? If you can't figure it out, look in the mirror.

One way or another a utility is going to make a profit, if it doesn't, someone will come in and buy it and then it will. Not so much with other things.

The problem is here, not there.

We have a systemic failure of capable management all across the spectrum in this country and it's been going on for a very long time along with an even bigger systemic failure of leadership and representation and the current administration is not helping the cause.
100   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 12:30pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Never said there wasn't enough - just not enough at the right price. Very key element - the price.


And I showed that we have the 3rd lowest average electric rates among the OECD, and it's nowhere near based on 72% from Coal like China.


It's so bad they actually turn off smelters and coal plants in the winter time because the smog makes it almost impossible even for healthy young people to function.

Feux Follets says
The problem is here, not there.


No it's not. The only countries with a higher per capita electric generation rate are either less populous Oil Rich Gulf States and the thinly populated Hydro/Geothermal Powers: Iceland, Norway, Canada, Finland.

No country anywhere near our size, population, and level of development has both Cheap and Plentiful Electric like we do.

Almost 5x the electric generation per head than China.

It's a competitive advantage FOR the USA: We've got the Power.
101   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 12:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
The Steelworkers Union did as much damage as the cost of electricity but at the end of the day it all goes back to management.


it goes back to a system that is geared to reward Wall Street pushing Companies to seek arbitrage abroad. A system that considers a move to Malaysia or Mexico to be just as much of a tax write-off as moving across the state. A weak system of easily loopholed tariffs and IP enforcement. No other country is so deliberately permissive.

Trump is finally doing something about it, and the Establishment profiting off the current system wants their glorious status quo.
102   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
It's a competitive advantage FOR the USA: We've got the Power.


Not at the correct price for some of these companies to stay afloat.

Don't care how much electricity we make from what - at the end of the day if the consumer be it an individual or a corporation finds the price unacceptable - game over.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Trump is finally doing something about it


Potus can not even fix the problems in his own administration let alone someone else's problems.

Last time - it's us, not them.

The better question no one is asking is why some of these companies are staying in business with little to no problem but others are screaming unfair etc.

Now if I was a betting man which I'm not - it would not surprise me to find out the most mismanaged companies are also the ones screaming the loudest about unfair competition and anything else instead of looking internally for the source of the problem which is really where it is.

Case in point - Harley Davidson pulled this shit for years screaming dumping, unfair competition, blah blah blah until they finally admitted the problem was with them (management) - nothing else. Same for the airlines and the rest who are bellyaching.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way and as a country we have chosen the options two and three.

As for profiting off of the current system the current regime in power is doing everything in their power to make sure it is even more lucrative than ever, including the person supposedly steering the ship of state.

Only the names have changed - nothing else and it will get worse before it gets better.
103   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Mar 13, 5:21pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Kind of curious, I thought Patrick and others on here have been screaming for several years now how bad a thing Diversity is but now it's a good thing ?


Please distinguish between job diversity and cultural/ethnic diversity.

I'm all for job diversity. And diversity of political opinion.

But cultural and ethnic diversity is provably a very bad thing for civic engagement.
104   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
But cultural and ethnic diversity is provably a very bad thing for civic engagement.


Also necessary to get results you mentioned in sentence two as well as diversity in thinking.
105   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Patrick says
But cultural and ethnic diversity is provably a very bad thing for civic engagement.


Also necessary to get results you mentioned in sentence two as well as diversity in thinking.


No. You think there was much diversity when the greek or latin philosopers debated theories and societies that were more than worlds apart with each other? There wasn't. It's not necessary at all. What is is a common cultural ground of manners and rules of engagement which is best achieved in a mostly homogenous society with some skilled immigration.
106   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

@Patrick. Seen your threads on diversity - don't agree and not getting into a mind numbing debate with you.

Heard the same old same old now since 2001.

It is a double edged sword that has to be strategically managed and most companies are totally inept when it comes to doing so.
107   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Not at the correct price for some of these companies to stay afloat. Don't care how much we make from what - at the end of the day if the consumer be it an individual or a corporation finds the price unacceptable - game over.


Plenty of countries making plenty of aluminium and steel with higher energy and labor costs than us. The stay afloat because the tariff the hell out of US Products, but we don't reciprocate.

Feux Follets says
The better question no one is asking is why some of these companies are staying in business with little to no problem but others are screaming unfair etc.


Because they have patented processes and alloys the Chinese don't have, and won't steal because these companies don't outsource to China.

Meanwhile, plenty of businesses are getting creamed after they move to China only to discover their contractors and subcontractors ripped off every process they have, and that Chicom Courts aren't like US Courts: They're always gonna find for the Han.

Finally, Management sucks, but we can't let 18,000 workers suffer for that. Let the German worker take it on the Chin and sacrifice for trade for a change.
108   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Meanwhile, the EU that bitches about our tariffs just raised their own Tariffs Chinese Steel to 13% a few month ago. Not specific alloys, but mostly due to ordinary building steel:

https://www.ft.com/content/19d13d7f-8b47-311d-864a-dd69b46cf637
109   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
@Patrick. Seen your threads on diversity - don't agree and not getting into a mind numbing debate with you.

Heard the same old same old now since 2001.

It is a double edged sword that has to be strategically managed and most companies are totally inept when it comes to doing so.


Up until the rapefugee crisis Switzerland has been extremely homogenous - and it still is very. How has that hurt its standard of living, society, quality of life, companies, innovation?? It hasn't. in fact the opposite is true. They are in the top 10 for almost any desirable metric. Diversity is not necessary and starts becoming harmful in other than controlled doses.
110   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Not buying the its all tariffs thing.

Lets go back to talk about Potus using Chinese made steel in his buildings. That sounds like fun.

How can one company in the same business be doing okay and another one with similar equipment and age of plant not be ?

It's us, - not them.

Business management is fucked, political management is fucked, we fucked ourselves - period,

It's always been us but we need to blame someone for our own fuckups and there is no better person in the universe to do that then the current Potus.

Stay tuned - if there aren't enough carve outs on the tariffs - going to see a lot of someone's favorite Mom & Pops take a header into the toilet.
111   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 5:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Oops, I'm wrong. That's old. Here's the new EU Tariff on Chinese Steel Plate:

The European Commission, the EU's executive body, announced Chinese exports of steel plate will be taxed with anti-dumping duties ranging from 65.1 percent to 73.7 percent for a five-year period on February 28.



http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-03/10/content_28504633.htm

Must be bad management over in Germany. Why can't they just compete? Lay off those German Workers, you bad competitors. Those steel jobs ain't comin' back.

Unless, it's them not us.

Holy Shit, 65-73% Tariffs on Chinese Steel going to Europe

That's not me forgetting the decimal point. It's not 6.5% or 7.3%. It's 65-73%

When Germany get the EU to impose those kinds of tariffs on Chinese Steel, what is another similarly sized market will they look to dump it off in next?

Sorry Merkel, I'm not gonna be holding the hot potato when they yell "Time's Up". And dear God, you Euros are such sanctimonious hypocrites.

Here's Bloomberg Business with the same report on the Tariff Rate those Inept Europeans placed on China, "Up to 73%":
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-07/china-hit-with-more-eu-tariffs-on-steel-amid-overcapacity-worry
112   FortWayne   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 6:10pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Well said sir.

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Feux Follets says
Pressed for time today.

No worries.

Feux Follets says
"IF" we are going to be great again - how do we achieve that at minimum wage ?


Not possible. One of the driving factors of the 50s and 60s was high demand, low labor supply. It makes companies train employees, pay them well to avoid turnover, and it can only happen if we restrict Corporate/Neoliberal gaming of the "Global Labor Market". Tariffs and restricting immigration is the only way to do it.
113   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 6:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

FortWayne says
Not possible. One of the driving factors of the 50s and 60s was high demand, low labor supply. It makes companies train employees, pay them well to avoid turnover, and it can only happen if we restrict Corporate/Neoliberal gaming of the "Global Labor Market". Tariffs and restricting immigration is the only way to do it.




Yeah, even the Europeans agree there is immense overcapacity because of the Chinese going apeshit with massive amounts of steel overproduction.

What's been happening is in the past couple of years, Chinese domestic demand has slowed, but their mills are running full bore, they have to or China Collapses from tens of millions of angry, unmarried, childless rioting unemployed males with no savings and absolutely nothing to lose.

So they want to dump stuff in Europe and the USA. The Europeans have imposed huge tariffs on a range of Chinese Steel.

If the Chinese couldn't dump steel in Europe, they'd dump even more in the USA, the most comparable market.

This was an act of self preservation.

There is only one steel mill in the USA capable of producing Steel Alloy for submarines. We probably don't want to outsource that.
114   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Mar 13, 6:29pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Heard the same old same old now since 2001.


Not from me.

I discovered the harm that diversity inflicts on societies only in August of 2015.

But let's not argue. The scientific evidence is very clear and consistent. Diversity of population is mostly harmful. It's easy to look up the scientific facts.
115   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 6:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
But let's not argue. The scientific evidence is very clear and consistent. Diversity of population is mostly harmful. It's easy to do look up the scientific facts.



I remember Sociology Class in the 90s, after the first wave of Diversity ("Political Correctness") that was actually mocked broadly - remember the NYT Bestseller "PC Christmas Tales" where the guy re-wrote all the Christmas stories to be inoffensive and "Politically Correct"? - we learned in Sociology class, from a fairly liberal Professor, about all the studies that established a huge increase in major crime, anti-social behavior (vandalism, graffiti), and perceptions of hostility/mistrust when a city had a minority population rise over 15%.

The sentiment of hostility and crime was actually seen on both sides, not just the majority or minority.

A Professor who taught that today would probably be run out of town, or pressured to resign with a golden parachute if he had tenure.
116   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 6:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

One more bit to bust the "It's all America's internal problems, only" myth (as if 65-73% tariffs by Europe aren't enough):


Steel workers will be joined by their bosses as they march on ­Brussels demanding urgent action against cheap Chinese imports.

About 5,000 protesters will insist the European Commission ramps up tariffs on China to stop it dumping cut-price steel – one of the main reasons for thousands of job losses at Britain’s industry.

In an unprecedented move, reps from the Unite, Community and GMB unions will stand side by side with Tata Steel Europe chief Dr Karl-Ulrich Kohler and Celsa group’s boss Francisco Rubiralto.

Gareth Stace, director of trade association UK Steel, will also join the demo. He said: “I can’t remember an occasion where bosses have joined unions and employees to march on the European Union’s offices and demand more action.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/steel-workers-bosses-march-brussels-7372531

Remember, even with all the international abuse, including backstabbing by neoliberal extremists and financial fatcats and multinationals on the home front, we're still in the top 10, which is actually a testament to US Competitiveness.
117   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 14, 1:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
Not from me.

I discovered the harm that diversity inflicts on societies only in August of 2015.


Going to think this was something work related and leave it at that but if I had to fill in the blanks, I have a pretty good idea what to fill in.

"The scientific evidence is very clear and consistent. Diversity of population is mostly harmful"

Does the scientific evidence also include diversity of thought in the research to come up with the findings you support ?
118   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 14, 1:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

FortWayne says
Well said sir.


Bullshit !

Companies are not forced to do anything and training was half assed at best when it was given in the majority of cases.

The pay wasn't really worth a fuck back then either unless you had a union gig or worked for a company that was competing with union companies and had to match wages.
119   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 14, 1:47am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

You can slice it and dice and serve it up any way you want to but at the end of the day the fault is still ours, 100% of it right from jump street.

Who the fuck is buying the cheap shit including steel etc. that is "flooding" the country ? (Ask Potus about Chinese steel in those shiny buildings he builds)

If there were no buyers, there would be no flood. Somebody in this country is buying that steel, aluminum, - it sure as hell isn't sitting around waiting for something to happen to it. (Maybe Potus knows, he loves that shit for his buildings - but not your buildings)

If Americans voted with their wallets to support American companies and fellow countrymen - things would change but they aren't going to because this nation is addicted to buying cheap shit and when it breaks they buy some more and 90% of it is shit they don't need in the first place.

Whatever your typing on was made in Asia. Why, because no one wanted to buy those expensive U.S. made goods when there was a better deal to be had somewhere else.

Companies complain as well but they are still buying cheap imported steel, aluminum, food, electrical components what have you

Its not them - its us. All of us.

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