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My biggest problem with religion... specifically those that believe in heaven and hell.

By WildMind following x   2018 Feb 25, 1:43pm 869 views   50 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


The driving factor in these fear based religions is it is as simplistic for most people as believing in Santa Clause for kids. I might not really believe everything in the Bible is true, but eternal damnation isn’t worth risking by choosing not to believe. By including the threat of burning in agony over hellfire and feeling inescapable pain for eternity... as a threat for not being faithful... it kind of takes any virtue away from those that choose to be faithful. It’s a terroristic threat brainwashed into children from childhood... Im not a churchgoer myself anymore,but I was raised Protestant and was confirmed and baptized and all that hoopla. Still, if I’m on a turbulent airplane I quietly recite the Lord’s Prayer in my head... not because I beleive necessarily, but I’m hedging my bets in such a situation of helplessness that getting “saved” last minute is better then eternal hell.

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1   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 25, 1:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Why would they write all that stuff down if it weren't true?
2   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 25, 3:41pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Not only that but if you don't choose the right religion, BAM! to hell!

What sadistic God would put you on this earth without enough information to know he exists, but then condemn you to an eternity of torment because, through no fault of your own, you rationally decided there is no God?
3   HEYYOU   ignore (13)   2018 Feb 25, 3:53pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Why do people hate fiction?
4   BlueSardine   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 25, 3:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Whenever one recites anything it always comes from in their head.
In addition,
when one "quietly recites" anything, they vocalize it at a decibel level that is barely perceptible to those within earshot.

By stating the obvious "in my head", someone appears to be saying that someone did not speak the lords prayer, yet that same someone states they 'quietly vocalized' it.
This part of the post needs to be redacted and rewritten to comply with Mirriam Webster standards...

WildMind says
I quietly recite the Lord’s Prayer in my head
5   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 25, 4:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

i forget who said it but may favorite quote about religion is that it serves as an opiate for the masses
6   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Feb 25, 4:19pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

anon_e7f7d says
i forget who said it but may favorite quote about religion is that it serves as an opiate for the masses


Karl Marx
7   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (30)   2018 Feb 25, 5:14pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

AMERICA! invented itself so that a completely unfettered society and marketplace would produce SUPER! MEN! who would live and die in mortal combat for control of ever greater proportions of the nation's wealth, until one GOD! HERO! would own it all and recruit the resources of the earth, the solar system and the galaxy and finally the universe, exploiting every last atom for maximal value and use it all to find GOD! and strangle him to death with his bare hands and take a long, satisfying Ballantine Ale piss on HIS! face.

That's why this country fucking ROCKS! and if JESUS! were any kind of GOD!, he would have torn himself off of the cross and dismembered Pontious Pilot with his bear hands and teeth and enslaved the world for his pleasure, especially the HOTT! chicks.
8   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Feb 26, 7:43am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

WildMind says
The driving factor in these fear based religions is it is as simplistic for most people as believing in Santa Clause for kids. I might not really believe everything in the Bible is true, but eternal damnation isn’t worth risking by choosing not to believe. By including the threat of burning in agony over hellfire and feeling inescapable pain for eternity... as a threat for not being faithful... it kind of takes any virtue away from those that choose to be faithful. It’s a terroristic threat brainwashed into children from childhood... Im not a churchgoer myself anymore,but I was raised Protestant and was confirmed and baptized and all that hoopla. Still, if I’m on a turbulent airplane I quietly recite the Lord’s Prayer in my head... not because I beleive necessarily, but I’m hedging my bets in such a situation of helplessness that getting “saved” last minute is better then eternal hell.


It seems as though there is a misunderstanding of God. He is not necessarily what religion or religious people tell you He is. Let Him speak for Himself. Read the Bible. You shall seek Him and find Him when you search with all your heart.
9   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 26, 7:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

anon_e96ec says
Read the Bible.

Why not Bhagavad Gita, Avesta (which is what Bible originated from), or Tripitaka, and which one should be considered the ultimate truth and why.
10   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2018 Feb 26, 10:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Good points. The hellfire sermons of early America still resonate in many protestant churches today. Unfortunately, people who believe that, or worse, push that belief, are attempting to put believers back under the law. But Paul states we are no longer under the law, but under grace. For this reason Jesus abhorred the religious leaders of his time, who sought to burden the people with untenable precepts that no one could ever live up to.

God made this a world of choice. He wants you to choose to have a relationship with Him, and Jesus provided the entry point to that relationship by bridging the gap sin put between us and God. If you choose to accept this gift of renewed relationship, you'll get far more than heaven. You'll get God. And that's worth way more than any fire insurance.
11   FortWayne   ignore (1)   2018 Feb 26, 10:52am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heaven and hell = you self regulate

Government = no morals, if you benefit all else be damned.
13   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 4:39pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

FortWayne says
Government = no morals, if you benefit all else be damned.

"if you benefit all else be damned"
Isn't that the definition of corporations?
14   FortWayne   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 4:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

That is why leaders are meant to be moral men. It’s in Jefferson letters. :)

Heraclitusstudent says
FortWayne says
Government = no morals, if you benefit all else be damned.

"if you benefit all else be damned"
Isn't that the definition of corporations?
15   HowdyThere   ignore (0)   2018 May 15, 6:40pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
Not only that but if you don't choose the right religion, BAM! to hell!


Given that there are only a few dozen of us that still worship Mithras, the one true God, Hell is EXTREMELY busy. Enjoy the burning or freezing, as appropriate based on your false god.
16   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 May 15, 7:07pm   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I read quite a bit about religion a few years ago and concluded that they are not even all the same kind of thing. To put them all into one category is misleading.

* Christianity stresses faith and claims to be the only true path to heaven.

* Judaism is more like a nationality than a faith. You don't have to believe anything to be a good Jew, you just have to follow the rules. Heaven and hell are not that significant and were not even part of the religion originally.

* Buddhism is just a philosophy for how to deal with life. In its original form, it does not deal with the supernatural but is just a recipe for ending suffering and finding peace.

* Hinduism is so far out there with blue gods, elephant headed gods, etc that I think their holy men must be stoned all the time. Which may in fact be the case.

A lot of people in the Western world think that all religions are analogous to Christianity. But that would be incorrect.
17   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 15, 7:36pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I finished Jordan Peterson’s new book “12 Rules for Life: an Antidote to Chaos” last week. In addition to a wide range of subjects from evolutional biology to psychology, he parses a different sort of truth from the holy texts of several major religions, arriving at a more unified theory of “the way(Tao possibly)” than I’ve ever seen.
It’s definitely worth a read or listen, and I’m actually planning to read it again soon. The concepts are very empowering. Peterson is an agnostic, but includes more religious ideas in his book than I would ever have suspected, and then ties them to deeper meanings encoded in our DNA. It’s quite fascinating!
18   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 10:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
The concepts are very empowering. Peterson is an agnostic, but includes more religious ideas in his book than I would ever have suspected, and then ties them to deeper meanings encoded in our DNA. It’s quite fascinating!

What does it mean "includes more religious ideas in his book than I would ever have suspected"?
Peterson is a clinical psychologist. If you follow him admitting he's talking about psychology, then you recognize that these are not religious ideas, but ideas about psychology.

Jungian archetypes are not a new idea. They were already popularized by people like Joseph Campbell. I haven't read Peterson but I don't know what he can add to that.
19   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 10:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
* Buddhism is just a philosophy for how to deal with life. In its original form, it does not deal with the supernatural but is just a recipe for ending suffering and finding peace.


Buddhism is really wide ranging. It encapsulates everything from a belief that literal demons and angels can hijack or help your Enlightenment (Tibetan), to "California (aka Golden Mountain) Zen" which is just about "Mindfulness" to something in between like Confusian-Buddhism or Buddhism-Local Gods.
20   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 10:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
Buddhism is just a philosophy for how to deal with life.


All religions, and myths in general, are about psychological patterns encountered through life.
21   steverbeaver   ignore (1)   2018 May 15, 10:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I find it ironic when there are those who follow a religion, not realizing it yet feel free criticize establishment religions (not that those classical religions are unworthy of criticism). All "religions" in my eyes are mere trickery out of motivation to exert control over another.
BTW I also agree that there is a distinction between philosophy (e.g. Buddhism) and religion. The cutoff is difficult to discern, more-so without proper definition. For me that distinction is that, for religion, it has "blind faith in the face of contrary evidence" whereas philosophy at least acknowledges contrary evidence as valid, even sound, but one's final position is chosen as based on an overall assessment. Maybe one of you brainy posters on here can phrase the distinction between religion vs philosophy better... mine struggles with potential for circular logic.
22   HEYYOU   ignore (13)   2018 May 15, 11:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

drB6 says
which one should be considered the ultimate truth and why.

Whichever one a fool believes in.

Anyone ever read or watch Joseph Campbell's, "The Power of Myth"
Translation of the dead sea scrolls? Bhagavad Gita? The list is much longer.
In my readings I failed to find anything other than opinion,speculation,innuendo,& wanderings of extremely imaginative minds.
The eternal question: Who profits?

Big Foot is knocking on my window wanting me to come out & play. He always takes advantage of his night vision.
23   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 16, 5:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Jung... yes he mentions Jung a lot. I think with the religious ideas he’s relating them to deep psychological drives that exist in all of us, yet pop out in religion as allegory, possibly because we can understand story better than lecture, or possibly because we only imperfectly grasp the concepts that our subconscious minds already know.

My understanding is yet imperfect. That’s why I want to read it again.
24   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 16, 12:24pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
pop out in religion as allegory, possibly because we can understand story better than lecture


That's one of Campbell's point: Religion is talking of things that cannot be communicated easily through words. Therefore it works by telling stories, putting you in the shoes of the people having a given experience. But the story is just a metaphor for the real point which is psychology.
This is the only way religion ever makes sense: it never makes claims about anything in the physical world. Just our experience living in this world.
25   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 16, 12:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

HEYYOU says
Anyone ever read or watch Joseph Campbell's, "The Power of Myth"
Translation of the dead sea scrolls? Bhagavad Gita? The list is much longer.
In my readings I failed to find anything other than opinion,


Just one example that is a common theme: duality.
Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Genesis in the bible, Islam (oneness of God) all oppose dualism (as did Heraclitus).

Buddhism teaches some forms of mindfulness where you can detach you consciousness as a pure observer from your identity as a person in life.
So you have these 2 levels: life bound to incessant give and take, cycles of causes-effects, and suffering as a result, and pure consciousness, where you can see the unity of things and cannot be affected by it.

Now Genesis says in paradise man is the same as God, there is no male or female (or they don't care about the difference), etc... then we get the knowledge of good and evil and BAM we fall into a world of polar opposites: good vs evil, light vs darkness, gain-loss, start-end, male-female, life-death, etc.... The cycles of cause and effect, aka the wheel of fortune. And of course the solution is to place yourself back at the level where you see the unity of all things as taught by Buddhism.

You can describe this in religious and abstract terms, but the "wheel of fortune", the suffering and the verifiable relief, all these are purely empirical observations about the nature of the world and that one corner of the human psyche.
26   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 16, 2:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I think you’d really like Peterson’s book then. He talks about all of that, with a special focus on Genesis 2-3, duality, Taoism, and evolutionary psychology.
27   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2018 May 16, 2:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
Now Genesis says in paradise man is the same as God, there is no male or female (or they don't care about the difference), etc... then we get the knowledge of good and evil and BAM we fall into a world of polar opposites: good vs evil, light vs darkness, gain-loss, start-end, male-female, life-death, etc....


None of that's in Genesis. It's very clear that God is the creator, not anywhere close to on par with man, and that Eve is very much not the same as Adam.

Good and evil do not exist because we learn of them, they exist because God allowed them, through choice. The choice to disobey God's command not to eat the fruit and sin is what changes things, not knowledge. This is such a post-modern mindset. What's broken is the relationship with God, the solution was Christ's sacrifice to allow for restoration of the relationship, if we choose to accept it.
28   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 16, 2:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

NuttBoxer says

None of that's in Genesis. It's very clear that God is the creator, not anywhere close to on par with man, and that Eve is very much not the same as Adam.

God created man in his image.
Adam and Eve were going naked and didn't care, whereas after being kicked out, they are ashamed.
They ate from which tree? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Curious name for a tree, is it not?
I'm not saying that good and evil do not exist. They exist for us as part of life. They do not exist from the perspective of a neutral observer that has sufficient stand back.
Heraclitus said something like: "Humans think this is fair, and that is unfair. But to God, all things are good and fair and beautiful."
29   HEYYOU   ignore (13)   2018 May 16, 6:39pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

There are severe problems with people not being able to understand: There is no proof for the existence of any God.
I'm open to those that have the proof.

One's value system is based on one's value system. What one believes is what one believes.

If there was a God,he would surely pity the fools.
30   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 16, 7:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Peterson uses the tree of knowledge as a tipping point of consciousness. Before then, they weren’t aware of their nakedness, because they weren’t aware of their mortality. After, with knowledge of just how soft and vulnerable everything was below the neck to below the waist, they felt a need to cover and disguise their vulnerability. In all, the story is an allegory or how mankind achieved true consciousness, the ability to know they are vulnerable, and the ability to see into the future and understand that future need would depend on today’s sacrifice of time and effort producing needful things. That’s why we work, because we can see the future and it requires work in the present to avoid hardship.
Knowledge of good and evil... to understand this you have to define evil and Peterson defines it as the conscious and knowing infliction of suffering on other human beings. Knowing our own vulnerability, we can now exploit that knowledge to intentionally hurt other people. This is evil. Helping and caring for others is then good. Before consciousness, Adam and Eve couldn’t know the difference, as any harm they’d do each other was unintentional or arising out of their instincts. After, they could hurt each other in new and inventive ways, using the knowledge they now possessed.
Knowledge is power, and with power comes responsibility. God tells them that he will have to work, and it will be hard. Eve will have to bear children and that will also be hard and painful. She will also (due to having to bear children and care for them and this taking so much time and energy) have to suborn herself to the man and be in his power. This is her sacrifice to the realities of her condition.

If you think of the story as an allegory of consciousness arising, it makes perfect sense.
31   Strategist   ignore (1)   2018 May 16, 7:35pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

NuttBoxer says
Good and evil do not exist because we learn of them, they exist because God allowed them, through choice. The choice to disobey God's command not to eat the fruit and sin is what changes things, not knowledge. This is such a post-modern mindset. What's broken is the relationship with God, the solution was Christ's sacrifice to allow for restoration of the relationship, if we choose to accept it.


So God was willing to send his son to die for the billion starving kids on the planet, but he is not willing to feed them.
God must need a shrink.
32   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 16, 10:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
Peterson uses the tree of knowledge as a tipping point of consciousness. Before then, they weren’t aware of their nakedness, because they weren’t aware of their mortality.


This is where I don't think I would like reading Peterson. He's lost in abstract zone of psychology.

To me what matters are not the symbols and their psychological imports, but the extremely practical lesson in the nature of the world in which we live: the endless cycle of life and death, the cycle of life feeding on life, nations that rise and fall, the cycle of violence whereby victims becoming the monsters, people who succeed then fail, win then lose, etc.... This is duality. This is the "suffering" of Buddhism. This is what human think is fair or unfair. And it should not be rejected but embraced.

The lesson of "paradise", or nirvana, is that there is a center of the wheel, a walled garden, a point of stillness and timelessness inside us, where we can be outside of this duality, and this suffering. Again this is a purely practical and verifiable claim.

You can see traces of this in a book like Genesis - that if otherwise taken literally would be a story for children, a story that could only pass for knowledge 3000 yrs ago in the bronze age.
33   alpo   ignore (0)   2018 May 16, 11:09pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
* Buddhism is just a philosophy for how to deal with life. In its original form, it does not deal with the supernatural but is just a recipe for ending suffering and finding peace.


Buddhism is just a cleaner more simpler form of Hinduism :-) It started out as a reform movement within Hinduism and a lot of this reform movement was assimilated back into Hinduism.

Patrick says
* Hinduism is so far out there with blue gods, elephant headed gods, etc that I think their holy men must be stoned all the time. Which may in fact be the case.


While some Buddhists will raise their eyebrows if one were to claim that Buddha is incarnation of Vishnu (Hindu god with multiple hands who rides on a multi-headed snake in the middle of the ocean) saying that Hinduism and Buddhism are completely different is denying the obvious truth :-)
34   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 May 17, 3:07am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

FortWayne says
That is why leaders are meant to be moral men


Potus ? The man who cheated on his first wife with his second wife and cheated on his second wife with his third wife ?

35   Feux Follets   ignore (1)   2018 May 17, 3:11am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

HEYYOU says
Why do people hate fiction?


My God Is An Imaginary Deification Of My Idiotic And Contradictory Personal Opinions !

Who is God? What’s He or She like? What are His beliefs, what are His motives, what’s His agenda? Who is He to you? Everything hinges on your response to this question.

For me, the answer is simple: my God is an imaginary deification of my idiotic and contradictory personal opinions.

Whatever I believe about immigration policies, my God does too. Whatever I believe about healthcare, my God does too. Whatever I believe about government welfare, my God does too. With a passion!

The best part about serving a God who’s simply an amalgamation of all my prejudices, opinions, biases, and social agendas is that He never once contradicts or challenges me.

He never once asks me to step outside my culture and worldview and question whether or not my truth is in line with His truth—because my truth IS His truth.

Therefore, anyone who disagrees with me, disagrees with God. That’s serious!

You might ask how I reconcile my God with the God of the Bible. It’s easy: I simply interpret every passage of Scripture through the lens of my own opinions.

For instance, when I read in the Scriptures that God is love, I immediately interpret that to mean that He supports all the social policies that I support. I read the gospels looking for hidden social justice themes in between the lines of each text.

When I read the Old Testament, I desperately hunt for narratives that line up with the narratives of oppression and victimhood that I myself subscribe to.

And guess what? When you look for these things in the Bible, you’ll find them. When I come to the Scripture with my guard up, rejecting themes and teachings that contradict me and instead looking for elements that agree with my worldview in order to incorporate those into my imaginary depiction of who God might be, I end up with a God whom I believe to be exactly. Like. Me.

But what I believe isn’t important. What’s important is the most fundamental question you can answer: who do you want God to be? Who is God to you?

I sincerely hope and pray that God to you is the same as my God. Otherwise we’re going to have a problem.

http://babylonbee.com/news/opinion-god-imaginary-deification-idiotic-contradictory-personal-opinions/
36   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2018 May 18, 11:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
God created man in his image.


I hate abuse of English. Same and image are two different words, with very different meanings.

Heraclitusstudent says
Adam and Eve were going naked and didn't care, whereas after being kicked out, they are ashamed.


Again, words matter. Having no shame does not mean they don't understand the difference between men and women.

Heraclitusstudent says
"Humans think this is fair, and that is unfair. But to God, all things are good and fair and beautiful."


Sounds like you're saying God has no sense of justice. If that were true, Adam and Eve never would have been kicked out of Eden.
37   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2018 May 18, 11:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Strategist says
So God was willing to send his son to die for the billion starving kids on the planet, but he is not willing to feed them.
God must need a shrink.


Why are they starving? What should God do to feed them? How would this change affect the ability to choose, and the responsibility of that goes with it?
38   P N Dr Lo R   ignore (0)   2018 May 18, 12:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Who is God? What’s He or She like? What are His beliefs, what are His motives, what’s His agenda? Who is He to you?
He answered all these questions with the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ when he dwelt among mortal men as One of them and yet was without sin. All one has to do is look to Jesus's example to know what God is like.
39   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 18, 12:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

NuttBoxer says
words matter


Taken literally, this is a story for children. The kind of myth that passed for knowledge in the bronze age, 3000 yrs ago.

I'm trying to point at pearls in the rubble, but even that is unnecessary. All you need is to observe the world and learn.

NuttBoxer says
Sounds like you're saying God has no sense of justice. If that were true, Adam and Eve never would have been kicked out of Eden.


No: YOU believe that God has no sense of justice. Otherwise humans now would not pay for the sins of their ancestors. Otherwise their wouldn't be children dying of starvation, or curable disease, under the all seeing eye of an omnipotent and benevolent "creator".

Personally, I don't believe in God to start with, but the wise attitude is not to drone on how unfair life is. This is life: of course shit will happen. This is just the decor, and a good one if we are to realize our potential as human beings.
40   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 18, 2:15pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

P N Dr Lo R says
He answered all these questions with the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ when he dwelt among mortal men as One of them and yet was without sin.


That makes me laugh:
Dozen of incompatible religions all around you.
But you're so dammmn sure you're the lucky sob that happens to have the right one.
Guess what: they're all sure they are too.
And for the exact same reason you do: i.e. they were taught this stuff by their parents.

But you can't take a step back for 1 minute and figure it out?

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