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The NYT talks of national identity

By Heraclitusstudent following x   2018 Mar 1, 6:27pm 556 views   8 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


It's all made up, you know.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/world/national-identity-myth.html

It leads to nationalism, which is obviously bad and leads to conflicts and extremism.
We should dissolve these nations, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya and also John Lennon's 'Imagine'.
And we should start here, even while China, Russia, NKorea, Iran, etc... still play the tribal game.
Because we never need to defend the nation. We don't need an army.
In fact there is no such thing as a national interest that needs to be collectively defended. Only private individual interests - Especially if you're rich.

Because we have no national values, tradition, culture or way of life. All these are random historical happening.

And if national identities are made up, what about religious identities?: obviously made up as well. Obviously the same tribalism leading to constant conflict.
So let's disband Christianity.
Judaism should have merged with the rest a long time ago.
But let's respect other people cultures. So Islam is ok.

We should be a large international human soup. But other countries are ok.

Sometime I wonder what people are thinking. Do they really believe this vision can happen? Are they surprised to see Trump? Brexit? Catalonia?
Can they really be that clueless about human nature?

1   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 1, 6:31pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

That's globalism for ya.

Ethnostates are bad, but it's okay South Africa is just passed a major hurdle to expropriate private property with no compensation from Whites.

It's pretty obvious; you can bribe most 3rd world countries, but you need to stop Democracy in the Developed World from keeping any barriers, no matter how beneficial to the ordinary person, in place. That way corporate elites can thrive.
2   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 1, 6:47pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

At 5:30 Fisher actually means to say "It's largely worked, but hasn't been perfect." Instead he says of US national ideology "It's never worked". A damn odd thing to say about one of the most successful Human Political Entities in History, that conquered a continent, united disparate groups of Europeans long before the EU (Germans, Irish, Italians, French; Catholic, Protestant, Jews, Mormons) pretty damn well, put a man on the Moon, and has been operating under the same Government Rules since 1793, more than 200 years.
3   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 1, 7:02pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

One other point: As far as we go back, we see people dividing themselves up in groups. No Algonquin thought he was an Iroquois. The Huron certainly did not consider themselves Iroquois or any kinship with them (different language for starters) - in fact the Iroquois called themselves the Haudenosaunee, Iroquois meaning "Black Snakes" or "Damn Straight Adders" in Huron.

Every Greek City-State recognized other Greek City-States as containing Greeks, and they debated about how peripheral Greek States in Asia (Turkey) or elsewhere had retained their "Hellenism". Even though they weren't united in a country at all. Athenians recognized Corinthians, Thebans, even Spartans as Greek, and vice-versa, with shared cultural traits, appearance, and a single language.

In the absence of language, culture, and shared spatial residence, what would unite people and prevent a slide into chaos? Probably the armed One World Police Force, sponsored by Merck and Microsoft..-
4   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Mar 1, 7:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Those NYT reporters need to read Ibn Khaldun's Muqqadimah, especially the bits about national unity (Asabiyyah) and how they protect countries against decadence and invasions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah#%CA%BFAsabiyyah

There is nothing new under the sun. These things were all known to ancient people.

The NY Times, however, seems to think we are immune to fundamental forces of history.
5   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 2, 9:49am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
As far as we go back, we see people dividing themselves up in groups.

People evolved to live in groups for self protection. Union makes the strength.
Over time these groups became larger.

Now they say this tribalism doesn't fit our needs. Well it doesn't fit their likely misguided sense of economic efficiency, but at the very least the self defense motive still applies.

And who is going to be willing to fight and die for a loose group of people no one cares about? Just look at Iraq today to see what happens to a country that has a weak sense of being nation.

Not only that but the need for tribalism is carved into the human psyche. You just don't get rid of this. Remove the national tribe and people will revert to smaller tribes: political tribes (see the polarization, which both parties are happy to exploit), race based tribalism, etc... The country will rip itself apart.

They blame the Russians, but they are doing 90% of the work for the Russians.
6   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 2, 9:57am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says


And who is going to be willing to fight and die for a loose group of people no one cares about? Just look at Iraq today to see what happens to a country that has a weak sense of being nation.

Not only that but the need for tribalism is carved into the human psyche. You just don't get rid of this. Remove the national tribe and people will revert to smaller tribes: political tribes (see the polarization, which both parties are happy to exploit), race based tribalism, etc... The country will rip itself apart.


Bingo. Nationalism is actually Good because it gets more people under one umbrella, with less reason to fight (at least bloodily) amongst themselves.

New Guinea is still pretty bad, but the inhabitants say having a National Government is great, the oldies remember having to look over their shoulders not to get ambushed by a neighboring tribe and killed, while trying to catch a fish or dig some tubers. (Source is Diamond's latest book).

Somebody should ask these Corporate Globalists if they can give us any examples of a large amorphous entity not based on identity politics.
7   drB6   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 2, 9:58am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Patrick says
The NY Times, however, seems to think we are immune to fundamental forces of history.

"This time, it is different" - have we heard this somewhere recently and how did it end?
8   TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 2, 11:22am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

There was also an "Anti-Democracy" angle to the piece as well. If not Democracy, who will rule? The rich and powerful. Who will keep them in check? Nobody.

"Oh there will be laws and processes"
Elites employing very, very smart people, folks, will find/create all the loopholes needed to get around the spirit of the law, particularly as time goes on.




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