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The only way Trump can say he achieved MAGA is if the gap between the rich and poor closes.

By FPBT following x   2018 Mar 11, 10:22am 5,939 views   69 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


What does the patnet community think?

I believe America was its best when the gap was smaller,* agree? Disagree? Why why not?

* http://patrick.net/post/1314356?offset=0#comment-1489820

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30   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 7:54am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says


The gap between the rich and poor is irrelevant.
Proof:
If Bill Gates doubles his net worth, and the middle class increases theirs by 10%, we are better off even though the wealth gap has increased.


The only problem with this proof is that of GDP.

If we make a simple population of 10 people, 2 with no income, 3-9 with various amounts of income and the 10th with the largest income. Put values to the 3-9 and then add 10% and add 100% to the top earner we come out with a GDP of 37%.

37% GDP growth is unrealistic so this proof is unrealistic.

If I could get 10% wage growth year over year and I started making $10,000/year by year 40 I'm making $411,000/year.
31   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 7:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
5lbsbrowntrout says
Not really, government can do it. It's called death tax.


Death tax is designed to limit competition from ambitious peasant upstarts w a few million of savings after a lifetime of grinding. Anyone (certainly any billionaire) w an accounting and legal staff can easily dodge the death tax.


I'm going to have to TRUST you on this.
32   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 8:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
5lbsbrowntrout says
It's not about giving to the poor it's about paying down a debt. America was also greatest when it didn't have a massive debt.


Yeah, for Trump to slow the deficit (baby steps) he will need to end wars. He's taking some great steps towards national prosperity. However, WARS (2 started by Bush, 5 more by Obama), are our biggest problem.

The Bush/Obama/Clinton cabal started wars designed to never end. War is at the core of the establishment racket. Trump must take steps to winning and ending these wars. So far, so good.


Yes a shit ton of money is spent on wars.

Is the defense budget even a realistic measure of what we spend on defense?
33   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 8:26am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
The problem comes when the B's can't afford what the A's are producing. Only the A's can but unfortunately there are not enough A's to support the economy and the economy goes into recession now both the A's and the B's are worse off.


That's a marxist myth, the same "labor is the value in the economy" argument that Marx brought up over and over.

Explain how that logic worked in Venezuela when all the "A's" were chased away because of socialism. Here's what I saw happen.



Man she looks like a very unhappy "B" now that all the A's have taken off and are not around to risk their capital to produce something.
34   FortWayne   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Equality isn’t a goal. And you don’t get to decide who and how should be equal.

America is still a free country.

5lbsbrowntrout says
FortWayne says
It is why I never understood their communist agenda of "equality" of outcomes, or it's racist. That just sounded so misguided.


It's not about being equal, it's about being yugley unequal. Just like it is in North Korea just like it is in Russia. They both have massive wealth gaps. Is that what we are after? Should we become the Ussa?
35   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:41am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FortWayne says
Equality isn’t a goal.


FortWayne says
It's not about being equal


Looks like we agree on something. Do we agree that having a $20 Trillion dollar debt also makes America less great?
36   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
5lbsbrowntrout says
The problem comes when the B's can't afford what the A's are producing. Only the A's can but unfortunately there are not enough A's to support the economy and the economy goes into recession now both the A's and the B's are worse off.


That's a marxist myth, the same "labor is the value in the economy" argument that Marx brought up over and over


We are entitled to our opinions. Care to give some proof as to why it is a myth?

My example is the great depression, please tell us why it wasn't caused by the worker B's whom didn't have the money to buy all the stuff they were producing.
37   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 9:56am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says

We are entitled to our opinions. Care to give some proof as to why it is a myth?


What? Venezuelans eating their zoo animals for dinner isn't enough proof?
38   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Explain how that logic worked in Venezuela when all the "A's" were chased away because of socialism. Here's what I saw happen.


Very poorly. That is why Trump would achieve MAGA if he could bring down the wealth gap especially if it doesn't turn out like Venezuela did, which we both agree is a poor way to achieve a lowering in the wealth gap. You see, it was not that long ago (2006) Venezuela had a
Larger wealth gap than did the US.
39   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 10:03am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Very poorly. That is why Trump would achieve MAGA if he could bring down the wealth gap especially if it doesn't turn out like Venezuela did, which we both agree is a poor way to achieve a lowering in the wealth gap. You see, it was not that long ago (2006) Venezuela had a
Larger wealth gap than did the US.


The wealth pie is NOT a zero sum game. This is the fatal flaw in all socialist/anti-capitalist theory.

You're claiming that the wealth gap is extremely high in the U.S. Okay. So what?

Net household worth has skyrocketed and hit record levels.



The pie simply gets bigger.

Like I said, because Bill Gates has $50 billion to play around means nothing to ME personally even though I'm a "lowly" multi-millionaire. I've never felt more rich at any other time in my life. Bill Gates ain't hurting me.
40   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 10:25am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says



See that dip in the graph? Obama put us approximately $10 trillion more in debt to recover from that dip. What if we start to dip again? What if that dip was just papered? Over? Shit could and can get a whole lot worse and fast? Will it happen? What happens when the US has to service that debt at a higher interest rate? Is asking for the debt to be paid down in a more favorable economic environment too much to ask?
41   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 10:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Obama put us approximately $10 trillion more in debt to recover from that dip

And the fed spent another $4.5 Trillion in QE
42   HEYYOU   ignore (23)   2018 Mar 12, 11:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
What does the patnet community think?


We will be having none of that there thinking on patrick.net.
Ya'll have been warned! ;-)
43   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 2:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
See that dip in the graph? Obama put us approximately $10 trillion more in debt to recover from that dip. What if we start to dip again? What if that dip was just papered? Over? Shit could and can get a whole lot worse and fast? Will it happen? What happens when the US has to service that debt at a higher interest rate? Is asking for the debt to be paid down in a more favorable economic environment too much to ask?


That has nothing to do with the point that income inequality is a fake problem.
44   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 4:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
5lbsbrowntrout says


That has nothing to do with the point that income inequality is a fake problem.


This opinion has been stated twice. It is no more true than the first time stated.

The first time this OPINION was stated Venezuela was given as an example but Venezuela is an example of wealth inequality ending badly. Is there any examples of wealth inequality as a good thing that won't end badly?
45   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 12, 4:38pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
This opinion has been stated twice. It is no more true than the first time stated.

The first time this OPINION was stated Venezuela was given as an example but Venezuela is an example of wealth inequality ending badly. Is there any examples of wealth inequality as a good thing that won't end badly?




Venezuela is NOT an example of market income inequality, it's an example at an attempt at government enforced income equality using the government's gun (the only way that's ever been attempted).

Capitalist markets do not create income equality, and that's a okay since there isn't "effort" equality.

Income inequality is a fake problem.
46   bob2356   ignore (3)   2018 Mar 12, 4:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Amazing. This thread has some of the dumbest economic arguments in history.
47   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 5:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Income inequality is a fake problem.


This is the 3rd time this OPINION has been started. Can we get an example please. Is it really too much to ask?
48   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 5:17pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Goran_K says
Income inequality is a fake problem.


This is the 3rd time this OPINION has been started. Can we get an example please. Is it really too much to ask?


Simple, in 2008 wealth inequality and income inequality started to decline rapidly until the bailouts and QE kicked in. There's your example, the free market mostly regulates itself.
49   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 6:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
5lbsbrowntrout says
Goran_K says
Income inequality is a fake problem.


This is the 3rd time this OPINION has been started. Can we get an example please. Is it really too much to ask?


Simple, in 2008 wealth inequality and income inequality started to decline rapidly until the bailouts and QE kicked in. There's your example, the free market mostly regulates itself.


So The QE and bailout SOCIALISM is good?

This is an example of saving us all with a "very big bazooka". QE and bailouts are not free market. This is an example of socializing the losses.

Personally I think a lot of people on here should be bowing down to Obama and kissing his feet for saving their fortunes, because without Obama all of us would be a lot worse off.
50   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 6:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
So The QE and bailout SOCIALISM is good?


No it's not. That was the point. It drove inequality through the roof which was declining because in a bear market the wealthy lose much much more.

5lbsbrowntrout says
This is an example of saving us all with a "very big bazooka".


It saved some, but at a much higher price than tax cuts.

5lbsbrowntrout says
QE and bailouts are not free market. This is an example of socializing the losses.


Correct.

5lbsbrowntrout says
Personally I think a lot of people on here should be bowing down to Obama and kissing his feet for saving their fortunes, because without Obama all of us would be a lot worse off.


No. Everybody should weather bull and bear markets accordingly. Quite a few are worse off, for example public teachers, which are usually retained regardless of the market cycles. They were able to buy a house in 2008-2010 (maybe still 2011-2012 for some areas) in the bay area, now because of QE and the bailouts they have been driven out of the bay area, and they are not the only ones. The bailouts were illegal and QE was a crutch - tax cuts are much preferred to those measures.
51   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 7:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says


Venezuela is NOT an example of market income inequality,


Venezuela is an example of wealth inequality unwinding. In a terrible way. In 2006 wealth inequality was higher than in US now it is not.

The Great Depression is an example of wealth inequality unwinding.

If wealth inequality is not a problem then where are the examples? Stated 3 times yet not 1 example of wealth inequality not being a problem.
52   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 8:56pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
5lbsbrowntrout says
This opinion has been stated twice. It is no more true than the first time stated.

The first time this OPINION was stated Venezuela was given as an example but Venezuela is an example of wealth inequality ending badly. Is there any examples of wealth inequality as a good thing that won't end badly?




Venezuela is NOT an example of market income inequality, it's an example at an attempt at government enforced income equality using the government's gun (the only way that's ever been attempted).

Capitalist markets do not create income equality, and that's a okay since there isn't "effort" equality.


If capitalism caused economic disaster, we would have been like Venezuela long ago. If communism caused thriving economies, Venezuela would be like USA.
Communists will never ever believe the obvious, which is why they are laughed at.
53   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Venezuela is an example of wealth inequality unwinding. In a terrible way. In 2006 wealth inequality was higher than in US now it is not.


Yup. Everyone is dirt poor and starving in Venezuela. Isn't communism/socialism awesome?
Margaret Thatcher....."Socialism is wonderful, until you run out of other peoples money" Venezuela ran out of other peoples money. Now, everyone is equally starving. :)
54   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 12, 9:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I asked before, and I ask again.....Can anyone name an economically successful country, that does not use capitalism?
55   bob2356   ignore (3)   2018 Mar 13, 6:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

If capitalism caused economic disaster, we would have been like Venezuela long ago. If communism caused thriving economies, Venezuela would be like USA.
Communists will never ever believe the obvious, which is why they are laughed at.


You really can't come up with any economic disasters in a capitalistic economy? Seriously? Start with the medici bank and work your way through to the 2007 meltdown.

This whole thread is idiotic. Oh my it's either Venezuela or the US. WTF. If you want pure capitalism then russia after the wall fell was probably the purest example of capitalism in history. Not a pretty sight. Pretty amazing all the people here screaming about the horrors of socialism while using all kinds of socialist government services every day of their lives.

The lowest income inequality in US history was the 1950'sl Was America socialist then?.
56   bob2356   ignore (3)   2018 Mar 13, 6:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
I asked before, and I ask again.....Can anyone name an economically successful country, that does not use capitalism?


China. Vietnam.

I can name a bunch of capitalist countries that have absolute shit economies.
57   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 8:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
China. Vietnam.


China and Vietnam aren't economically capitalist?

Have you been to those countries? I have, as part of my job as a Senior Analyst at Goldman Sachs during my younger years. We helped fund many capitalist ventures in both countries during the late 90s and early 2000s, I guess that must have been part of my imagination.
58   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 8:19am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
If wealth inequality is not a problem then where are the examples


The United States. Household wealth is at historical peaks.

Seriously think about the pie getting bigger, and the pie not being a zero sum game and it makes sense instantly.
59   FPBT   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 13, 9:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
5lbsbrowntrout says
If wealth inequality is not a problem then where are the examples


The United States. Household wealth is at historical peaks.

Seriously think about the pie getting bigger, and the pie not being a zero sum game and it makes sense instantly.


Yes the pie might be getting a bigger radius but it still always adds up to 100%. Why can't an example be pointed to that has a higher Gini index than the US?

Ok so the US is the example and the example to use is socialization of the losses. I hear so many bad things about socialism but the socialism that saved the wealth gap from closing is apparently the only good socialism? Is that what I'm hearing?

Socialism in Venezuela bad socialism to save the US top1% wealth good.

Folks you just can't make this shit up.
60   bob2356   ignore (3)   2018 Mar 13, 12:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
bob2356 says
China. Vietnam.


China and Vietnam aren't economically capitalist?

Have you been to those countries? I have, as part of my job as a Senior Analyst at Goldman Sachs during my younger years. We helped fund many capitalist ventures in both countries during the late 90s and early 2000s, I guess that must have been part of my imagination.


Oh so we have economically capitalist in a Communist country that makes it a capitalist country except being communist unless it's a communist country that is economically capitalist but could be sort of kind of. unless it isn't or could be or Oh never mind. . ROFLOL.

So the bottom line is capitalist, communist, and socialist means whatever you want it to mean depending what you are talking about and the point you want to make. Nothing like having a firm set of values.
61   bob2356   ignore (3)   2018 Mar 13, 12:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says

Socialism in Venezuela bad socialism to save the US top1% wealth good.


There you go, you got it.
62   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 12:52pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The real question is how you get the money.

If you get it by doing something productive for other people, good on you.

If you get it through unproductive rent-seeking, then fuck you.

Unfortunately, our entire political system runs on taking campaign donations from unproductive rent-seekers in return for laws and regulations that guarantee future rent-seeking profits without the discipline of the free market.

The first step towards a real solution is publicly funded campaigns. But how can we get Congress to vote to change the very system which got every single one of them elected?
63   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 13, 12:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
The real question is how you get the money.

If you get it by doing something productive for other people, good on you.

If you get it through unproductive rent-seeking, then fuck you.

Unfortunately, our entire political system runs on taking campaign donations from unproductive rent-seekers in return for laws and regulations that guarantee future rent-seeking profits without the discipline of the free market.

The first step towards a real solution is publicly funded campaigns. But how can we get Congress to vote to change the very system which got every single one of them elected?


It’s obvious now we won’t get it from this administration. Vote wisely
64   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 13, 12:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
I asked before, and I ask again.....Can anyone name an economically successful country, that does not use capitalism?


The United States

Many people would label the U.S as successful, even though we long ago abounded Capitalism for Socialism, Crony Capitalism and Lemon Socialism mixture
65   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 1:54pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
Oh so we have economically capitalist in a Communist country that makes it a capitalist country except being communist unless it's a communist country that is economically capitalist but could be sort of kind of. unless it isn't or could be or Oh never mind. . ROFLOL.

So the bottom line is capitalist, communist, and socialist means whatever you want it to mean depending what you are talking about and the point you want to make. Nothing like having a firm set of values.


Uh no. It's called history and facts. Maybe read a book or two about the period of economic reformation in China, Russia, Vietnam.

Most communist countries realized that "strictly socialist" economic policies only inhibit economic growth and in some cases, just bankrupts the entire country (e.g - USSR).

In Russia for instance there's actually a term for their capitalist aspirations, Perestroika. In China their economic reform movement was called Gǎigé kāifàng.

Regardless of what it was called, basically all countries involved decided to rely less upon central planning and more upon a market based reformation that was based on real world supply and demand. In the case of China and Vietnam, this brought a flood of external capital investment (which provided me with lots of work and money during the early part of my career), which in turn greatly enriched both countries.

But what do I know, I only have an MBA from Wharton, spent my many years working in China and East Asia working with one of the top capital investments firms on the entire planet, and actually saw first hand what happened there.
66   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 13, 2:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Yes the pie might be getting a bigger radius but it still always adds up to 100%. Why can't an example be pointed to that has a higher Gini index than the US?


Who gives a shit about the Gini index? An outdated measure leftist use to create the false income inequality bogeyman?

The problem with Gini is that it does not accurately capture the ACTUAL individual effect on the population. Let me explain.

Bangladesh and the Netherlands have the same Gini coefficient; do you honestly believe that there are no relative and qualitative economic differences between Bangladesh and the Netherlands? No? That's why the Gini sucks dick.

Different income distributions with the same Gini coefficient do happen. You can have two different distributions of values, whose average value is the same. Similar average values don't necessarily tell you much about the shape or skewness of the underlying distribution. This is a basic statistical principal. This is also why the Gini gives an incomplete picture about "income inequality".

Additionally the Gini coefficient doesn't tell you anything about wealth, only income. So a country which has many people who have accumulated a lot of wealth (such as vast land owners), but whose people on average have lower incomes, can have a low Gini coefficient which using your logic would mean they are more "equal" than countries with a higher number. This is the rent seeking part Patrick is talking about. The Gini fails to capture that.

I can go on and on, but any serious conversation about income inequality and its potential problems cannot also be about the Gini index/coefficient.
67   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 13, 7:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says
Strategist says

If capitalism caused economic disaster, we would have been like Venezuela long ago. If communism caused thriving economies, Venezuela would be like USA.
Communists will never ever believe the obvious, which is why they are laughed at.


You really can't come up with any economic disasters in a capitalistic economy? Seriously? Start with the medici bank and work your way through to the 2007 meltdown.


The 2007 meltdown was horrible, as was the Great Depression of 1929, WW2, and recessions. However, we pulled out of every one of them and our economy went even higher.
Communist countries don't pull out of their melt downs. They cover it up for as long as possible, and eventually end up dying.
Today, virtually all wealth is produced by countries that use capitalism.
68   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 13, 7:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Feux Follets says
Strategist says
Can anyone name an economically successful country, that does not use capitalism?

Is this like the what is the ideal temperature for humans question ?


Nope. I'm just trying to open the eyes of people who think we will all be better off without capitalism.
69   Strategist   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 13, 7:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5lbsbrowntrout says
Ok so the US is the example and the example to use is socialization of the losses. I hear so many bad things about socialism but the socialism that saved the wealth gap from closing is apparently the only good socialism? Is that what I'm hearing?

Socialism in Venezuela bad socialism to save the US top1% wealth good.

Folks you just can't make this shit up.


There is no such thing as socialism in the US for the top 1%. It's just propaganda.

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