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Why does politics make us stupid?


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2018 Apr 2, 4:48pm   16,286 views  74 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

A few weeks ago, a TV interview of clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson by journalist Cathy Newman became a minor Internet phenomenon, thanks to the journalist’s extraordinary interviewing style. She handled the conversation so badly that the Atlantic commented on that car-crash of an interview under the title Why Can’t People Hear What Jordan Peterson Is Saying? ...

The reason that interview became an Internet sensation is the bewildering behavior of the interviewer. Like a Theme and variations piece, the conversation between Peterson and Newman follows a simple pattern that is repeated multiple times:

Jordan Peterson makes a point, tries to provide arguments and occasionally appeals to some evidence.
Then Newman interrupts him (often in mid-sentence) with the words “So, you’re saying that…” followed by some fantastically distorted version of what Peterson just said. ...

The special factor about politics is that a) it seems to be about arguments, for or against particular policies, but b) it is of course mostly motivated by coalitional psychology. The point is to build and sustain an alliance with strong cooperation and diminish the recruitment potential of other alliances, in what is clearly construed as a zero-sum competition for social support (Pietraszewski, 2013; Tooby & Cosmides, 2010).

Seen from this angle, Cathy Newman’s majestic displays of stupidity make more sense. Newman is signaling to her friends or allies that she is so strongly opposed to Peterson and his conservative views that she will use absurd distortion and insulting comments, rather than engage with and discuss any of his arguments. Sure, that makes her sound like a bit of a simpleton. But the point is that people now know very clearly where she stands.


http://cognitionandculture.net/blog/pascals-blog/so-youre-saying-we-should-live-like-lobsters-or-why-does-politics-make-us-stupid

This link from the original is also excellent: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/putting-monsterpaint-onjordan-peterson/550859/





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1   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 4:51pm  

Patrick says
Seen from this angle, Cathy Newman’s majestic displays of stupidity make more sense. Newman is signaling to her friends or allies that she is so strongly opposed to Peterson and his conservative views that she will use absurd distortion and insulting comments, rather than engage with and discuss any of his arguments.


This is exactly what James Damore ran into at Google when he correctly noted that he would be misrepresented and shamed regardless of the facts.

Unfortunately for Damore, Google leadership also displayed majestic stupidity in a desperate attempt to signal that it valued political correctness above even scientifically provable facts.
2   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 5:04pm  

Most of what Jordan Peterson argues for is very middle of the road common sense (backed up intellectually) that I guarantee you many "liberals" or "progressives" such as myself like A LOT. Republicans wish they had a monopoly on traditional values, but it simply isn't true. They've been marketing themselves that way ever since "the moral majority" and before. A lot of work goes in to that.

Only the most authoritarian left wingers are going to have a problem with Peterson (unless possibly they are overly dogmatic atheists). I would strongly argue that a majority of so called elitist democrat voting people in the media or in the "establishment," like Jordan Peterson and what he stands for. That lady was an idiot. She would have done herself far more good to find common ground with Peterson, but she, or probably the writers and producers behind her, weren't smart enough to see through lies they had been told about Peterson.

Or perhaps...

I actually think it's possible, that Peterson is so well liked by the establishment, that she was set up, to take a fall, while TPTB intentionally bolstered Peterson's reputation up to the next higher level with this incident. You have to know that his message is one that is respected by a very large majority, including a majority of of people that vote for democrats (despite whatever propaganda you might be accepting about democrats and their "political correctness"). You have to know (if you have any sense at all) that there are plenty of main stream democrats, that not only disagree with the left wing authoritarians, but they fear for what it does to the party if that wing were to grow. At the same time you have to know how much many republicans love to color ALL democrats with that brush. See CBOE's posts about Nazi progressives.
3   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 5:17pm  

marcus says
I would strongly argue that a majority of so called elitist democrat voting people in the media or in the establishment, like Jordan Peterson and what he stands for.


Lol, absolutely not. No way. Not even close, and I know this from continuous personal experience for many years now. You could easily lose your job anywhere in California or other places with a majority of Democrats merely by suggesting that Jordan Peterson may have some valid points.

The key to seeing why otherwise rational people will brutally persecute any diversity of opinion, even about obvious facts, is given in the analysis:

Patrick says
Newman is signaling to her friends or allies that she is so strongly opposed to Peterson and his conservative views that she will use absurd distortion and insulting comments, rather than engage with and discuss any of his arguments.


The key is that it's about showing that you belong. How better to show you belong than to do whatever you can to misrepresent, shame, fire, and perhaps physically assault "the other side"?
4   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 5:23pm  

Patrick says
Lol, absolutely not. No way. Not even close, and I know this from continuous personal experience for many years now. You could easily lose your job anywhere in California or other places with a majority of Democrats merely by suggesting that Jordan Peterson may have some valid points.


I say you're wrong. I doubt that's true even in your San Francisco bubble. This is very telling Patrick. You clearly have no idea what the typical liberal thinks. Sure, many that are members of minorities embrace identity politics. But that isn't all the democrats are now.

Can you find a scintilla of evidence in the MSM ( any major network or even MSNBC) portraying Peterson negatively ? I'm a student of Peterson. I have yet to see a single negative video about him on youtube ? Is that just my feed ?

How can that be if you're even close to being right ?

(don't get me wrong - I'm sure you'll find a video of some blue haired tranny dissing him, but please find me the closest thing you can, in the U.S. to MSM criticism of Peterson).

Lol !!
5   Heraclitusstudent   2018 Apr 2, 5:30pm  

Patrick says
Why does politics make us stupid?

1) Tribalism => beliefs.
Political Tribe => political beliefs, narrative on policies and how the world works.
Religious Tribe => religious beliefs, narrative on how the entire universe works.
National Tribe => cultural beliefs and values

2) Logically challenged tribal beliefs => cognitive dissonance => rationalization:
-> "the challenger is an outsider and has hidden bad intentions, or may be lying or biased or is an idiot. "
-> reinforced beliefs and stronger trust of insiders and distrust of outsiders

This is why political discussions are never rational and even if they are, they can't convince anyone.
But remember that proselytizing, trying to convince others of your ideas, WILL convince YOURSELF. You can't defend against your own arguments.
6   mell   2018 Apr 2, 5:33pm  

marcus says
I say you're wrong. I doubt that's true even in your San Francisco bubble.


Why are you simply saying he is wrong? He told you he knows about several cases where exactly that happened, maybe even to himself. This is a bit disturbing, it's fine to have differing views, but you're simply saying against the vast mountain of evidence where people are getting fired for expressing their opinion close to JPs is not there because you don't want to. I'm not saying you're like that, but you have to believe Patrick on this, there are plenty of people, companies and organizations that do not tolerate dissent from extreme leftists views. It is customary these days for those reasonably skilled in diplomacy and strategy to never express their personal opinion at the workplace but to agree with whatever the dictate is, esp. when it comes to diversity and gender issues. I keep politics and personal opinions completely out of work, but you should at least admit that these things happen, and more frequently than ever.
7   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 5:41pm  

mell says
This is a bit disturbing, it's fine to have differing views


It's rhetoric. It should be understood it's my opinion. I don't believe in saying IMHO. Fuck that. It's a given (well, not the humble part). But I am quite certain I'm right. IF what Patrick says is true, surely there would be a single example in the MSM, no ?

San Francisco is probably a special case being the U.S hub of gay culture, and given Peterson's point of view on legally mandated speech relative to pronouns used by "non binary" folks.

So I accept that it's true in San Fran, and to a far lesser degree in LA. But out in America in general, the respect given to Peterson is pretty much beyond reproach. If I'm wrong, show a single fricking example in the main stream media. Who has the balls to challenge him ? He's HUGE right now. Really HUGE. You going to tell me nobody in the MSM will publicly diss him ? Why, that is, if Patrick is right ?
9   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Apr 2, 5:45pm  

marcus says
I doubt that's true even in your San Francisco bubble. This is very telling Patrick. You clearly have no idea what the typical liberal thinks.

Wait, are you saying SF isn't jam packed full of Liberals? Hard to think of a city more emblematic of Liberalism than SF. Boston?
10   mell   2018 Apr 2, 5:46pm  

marcus says
mell says
This is a bit disturbing, it's fine to have differing views


IF it's true, surely there would be a single example in the MSM, no ?

San Francisco is probably a special case being the U.S hub of gay culture, and given Peterson's point of view on legally mandated speech relative to pronouns used by "non binary" folks.

So I accept that it's true in San Fran, and to a far lesser degree in LA. But out in America in general, the respect given to Peterson is pretty much beyond reproach. If I'm worng, show a single fricking example in the main stream media. Who has the balls to challenge him ?


I appreciate that partial admission. I think the reason why you don't see JP being properly challenged or dissed/squashed is because he is so well spoken and there is a risk of people rising up saying "wait a minute - this guy had some good points" and the powers do not like to take that risk. Also he is often more diplomatic than he'd like to be (my guess here) but he is smart enough to know when to make concessions even if it's just for good feelings, and still bring some of his points across. But rather than attacking him it goes like Patrick mentioned: there is always a lingering "badness" about this dude even if he personally is not attacked, but simply by way of the interview style of his "opponents". The trick is to associate that prior purposely built-up "perceived badness" (even if the argument was lost) with dudes of lesser power and debating skills/platform who make similar or supporting statements and squash those instead of taking on Peterson himself. Just my take on it, not gospel.
11   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 5:47pm  

How about The Guardian:

Since his confrontation with Cathy Newman, the Canadian academic’s book has become a bestseller. But his arguments are riddled with ‘pseudo-facts’ and conspiracy theories


Note clearly: he had no "confrontation" with Cathy Newman. She was determined to misrepresent and shame him into confrontation, but he didn't fall for it. He very calmly and civilly made his points, and she misrepresented them over and over. It's very nice that this is all on video for the world to see.

And then The Guardian misrepresented the whole interview!
12   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 5:55pm  

I said, in the U.S. Admit it, you can't find a single example. Besides, I bet that was a leftist editorial which the guardian is going to have.
13   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 5:57pm  

Lol, marcus, just come check it out around here. And watch what you say.
14   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 5:59pm  

mell says
there is a risk of people rising up saying "wait a minute - this guy had some good points" and the powers do not like to take that risk.


I see it differently. A lot of honest liberals, are intelligent enough and honest enough, even with themselves, that when they listen to Peterson, they don't see an enemy that's too intelligent and too correct to argue with. They see someone they for the most part (if not 100%) agree with.
15   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 6:00pm  

Patrick says
here. And watch what you say.


??

Yes, I routinely challenge the warped right wing straw man view of democrats around here. Is that what you're talking about ? Or was "here" referring to a link ?
16   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 6:03pm  

marcus says
Patrick says
here. And watch what you say.


??


I mean you could be in danger of getting physically beaten by any random person in the San Francisco area who doesn't like what you say.
17   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 6:05pm  

Your world view is very very different than mine. I'm pretty sure, given the degree that I'm out there interfacing with a cross section of the masses, that my view is more reality
driven.
18   FortWayne   2018 Apr 2, 6:07pm  

I saw that interview and it was something. That woman proves that feminism makes people crazy.

Patrick says
A few weeks ago, a TV interview of clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson by journalist Cathy Newman became a minor Internet phenomenon, thanks to the journalist’s extraordinary interviewing style. She handled the conversation so badly that the Atlantic commented on that car-crash of an interview under the title Why Can’t People Hear What Jordan Peterson Is Saying? ...

The reason that interview became an Internet sensation is the bewildering behavior of the interviewer. Like a Theme and variations piece, the conversation between Peterson and Newman follows a simple pattern that is repeated multiple times:

Jordan Peterson makes a point, tries to provide arguments and occasionally appeals to some evidence.
Then Newman interrupts him (often in mid-sentence) with the words “So, you’re saying that…” followed by some fantastically distorted version of what Peterson just said. ...

The special factor about politics is that a) it seems to be about arguments, f...
19   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 6:08pm  

marcus says
a cross section of the masses


We don't have that around here. We have absolute ideological conformity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5396583/Peter-Thiel-departs-one-party-state-Silicon-Valley.html

And Peter is even gay. The gay guy will not be tolerated because he does not conform as demanded.
20   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 6:13pm  

Okay, well San Fran is a special case. You might sometimes keep that in mind when generalizing what you see out onto the rest of the U.S. There are a lot of liberals with very traditional values, even if they sometimes feel compelled to some degree, for example defend the rights of homosexuals. Even most republicans (the younger ones) could give a shit about other peoples personal sexual identities. They're not interested in imposing their values about that on to them (with exeptions such as FW). Neither would Jordan Peterson be.
21   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 6:16pm  

OK, I agree that most people are more moderate than the press would have us believe. The press thrives on division and anger. Sells papers.
22   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 6:20pm  

But my point was that even the press can not get away with criticizing Peterson, without just adding to his following. He makes too much sense.

A big part of what Peterson advocates for, at least with respect to politics, is free speech. The press isn't opposed to free speech. Even when the press shows stories about authoritarian leftists at colleges, that serves to wake all the moderate majority up to a problem. Probably part of what drives Peterson's popularity.
23   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Apr 2, 6:22pm  

FortWayne says
I saw that interview and it was something. That woman proves that feminism makes people crazy.


I saw a devoted "Gotcha" type Journalist who decided to use her typical rhetorical tricks on a cognitive scientist and got her ass beat.

I mean, did she not think that a psychologist of decades of experience is not going to have an extensive number of Judo Moves when dealing with Mind Tricks?
24   mell   2018 Apr 2, 6:32pm  

TwoScoopsPlissken says
FortWayne says
I saw that interview and it was something. That woman proves that feminism makes people crazy.


I saw a devoted "Gotcha" type Journalist who decided to use her typical rhetorical tricks on a cognitive scientist and got her ass beat.

I mean, did she not think that a psychologist of decades of experience is not going to have an extensive number of Judo Moves when dealing with Mind Tricks?


Yeah but don't forget - the association of "JP is not nice to women!" sticks regardless. So his lesser skilled and monied sympathizers may be taken down by way of association. She may have just been a pawn sacrifice in the game.
25   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 6:35pm  

mell says
Yeah but don't forget - the association of "JP is not nice to women!" sticks regardless.


He wasn't mean to her. Although in the aftermath they tried to generate a story that his followers were threatening her with all of their "so you're saying" comments on twitter. It didn't fly except to the most idiotic left wingers.
26   Patrick   2018 Apr 2, 6:41pm  

marcus says
The press isn't opposed to free speech.


I disagree. The MSM is all for free speech for their own globalist identity-politics ideology, but carefully omits stories which show its many downsides.

Have you ever seen an MSM article about exactly how much illegal slave labor drives down US wages?

Or one about how diversity reduces all forms civic engagement?

Or how you can sell a house for more money by not using a realtor? Lol, had to put that one in, even through it's really just about advertising revenue.

The people in power don't want you to see those stories, so they don't appear. And it's hard to see what isn't there.
27   marcus   2018 Apr 2, 7:08pm  

Patrick says
The MSM is all for free speech for their own globalist identity-politics ideology, but carefully omits stories which show its many downsides.


There's a difference between editorial policy and the types of stories that fit with whomever is deciding it on editorial boards, varying a lot from one publisher to another, versus being opposed to free speech.

For example I can imagine CNN not choosing to do a story about the affects that illegal immigrants, already here, have on the wages for housekeepers, nannies, food pickers, landscaping companies and construction etc. I.e. compared to deporting them all.. But I can't imagine them taking issue with say a youtuber, blogger or even other MSM outlet that wanted to talk about it.

I also can't imagine them doing a story on how disruptive it would be to the lives of all those immigrants if they were deported. What about their children, who are future taxpayers, and so on. Sometimes stories aren't addressed simply becasue of their complexity. Take most foreign policy for example. Besides, to do that well might be tipping our hand in some ways.
28   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2018 Apr 2, 9:43pm  

All of CNN is like that lady in the meme.

My coworker had CNN on tonight. Anderson Cooper and some randoms were yapping about Trumps tweets...for a long time. Then Leon Panetta came on. One of the most knowledgeable, intelligent govt insiders alive. And what do they talk about?

Trumps tweets. The entire damn interview.
29   EBGuy   2018 Apr 3, 12:25am  

Still waiting for the New York Times bestseller list to acknowledge that Peterson's book even exists. That is the state of affairs these days.
30   steverbeaver   2018 Apr 3, 12:26am  

I thought it was because politics tends to tap into people's emotional side instead of the logical side. And there seems to be an ever-shrinking attention span among the masses.
31   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 12:48am  

marcus says
epublicans wish they had a monopoly on traditional values, but it simply isn't true.


Peterson is a left leaning libertarian. He's made a career of studying nazis and speaking out against the threat of authoritarianism.

He speaks out against extreme leftists because they have infested our schools and establishments resulting in oppression of wrongthinkers. The extreme left is the biggest threat to freedom and liberalism that we have in today's western culture. Today's left = fascism.

Don't confuse his indictment of the insane left w support of republicans. Jordan Peterson is what the left should be.
32   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 1:00am  

marcus says
many republicans love to color ALL democrats with that brush. See CBOE's posts about Nazi progressives.


I should mark this post as personal but I'll explain why you're wrong. I'm a liberal. I've never voted for a Republican. Ever. Not once. I didn't vote for trump though at this rate I will in 2020.

The leftist who think white supremacists are at the core of trumps support, or who support intersectional idiocy theory are the biggest problem in today's society. They righteously divide us, cast blame on an imagined enemy, and push for authoritarian tyranny JUST LIKE THE NAZIS.

Any true liberal would speak out against this tyranny from the left, exactly as J Peterson does.
33   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 1:02am  

marcus says
You clearly have no idea what the typical liberal thinks.


Prove us wrong and admit that white supremacy is the left's boogeyman of choice to control useful idiots.
34   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 1:15am  

marcus says
Okay, well San Fran is a special case.


Nope. Was happening in Chicago and in Austin now as well. It happens on almost every university. Extreme leftism is the only allowed viewpoint in Hollywood, the MSM (minus Fox which is a joke unto itself), social media and now in K-18 schools as well.

The tyrranny is terrifying. You don't notice because you don't care about the people being oppressed.

Some of us do care, and have read enough history to know this can not end well.

I don't doubt there is a far more reasonable leftwing. They simply don't care enough to stick their necks out for dirty uneducated wrongthinkers. This is the exact attitude the average german had towards gypsies and jews in Weimar Germany. The left today = Nazis of the 1930's.
35   Patrick   2018 Apr 3, 9:25am  

steverbeaver says
I thought it was because politics tends to tap into people's emotional side instead of the logical side. And there seems to be an ever-shrinking attention span among the masses.


Yes, but we should be more specific. That emotion is belonging. People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.

I agree about the attention span thing too. Maybe it's the constant interruption from smartphones.
36   MrMagic   2018 Apr 3, 9:35am  

Patrick says
I agree about the attention span thing too. Maybe it's the constant interruption from smartphones.


I absolutely believe that to be true. After watching and dealing with people for decades, very few today have an attention span that lasts more than a few minutes, if that. Coupled with pure ignorance on basic facts of life. Hardly anyone "remembers" basic skills and facts, since they can just look them up on Google.

What I also see is people's lack to figure things out and plan ahead. We've been conditioned to "absorb" information nonstop(videos, texts, FB updates, tweets, emails), that without a steady stream of "stuff" coming at them, people become walking zombies, unable to figure out their next move.
37   mell   2018 Apr 3, 9:36am  

errc says
And yet you choose to live there, rather than the other 99.99% of the country. What do you think that says about you?


It's not that easy. Job, family, kids, friends and many other "obligations" can keep you in the area. What's wrong with advocating for change in your area? If you ultimately are totally fed up though then moving is a good option.
38   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 9:57am  

Patrick says
People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.


Deep and accurate.

Our brains are designed to group us into tribes and save us from large predators.

The problem is deeper though. "Not my superior brain" is the common attitude most people have to the flaws of the human mind. These egotistical people will always be slaves to their own impulses, easily propagandized and controlled. We are egotistical fucks.

I suggest checking out a YouTube star named David Snyder to discover how deeply flawed your own brain can be...and how to take advantage of this fact in others.
39   mell   2018 Apr 3, 10:05am  

CBOEtrader says
Patrick says
People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.


Deep and accurate.

Our brains are designed to group us into tribes and save us from large predators.

The problem is deeper though. "Not my superior brain" is the common attitude most people have to the flaws of the human mind. These egotistical people will always be slaves to their own impulses, easily propagandized and controlled. We are egotistical fucks.

I suggest checking out a YouTube star named David Snyder to discover how deeply flawed your own brain can be...and how to take advantage of this fact in others.


Yeah but modern life also made us so "safe" - regardless of what you hear and see in the news now is usually always the safest time to be alive - that you can start virtue-signaling and shitting on your own tribe without repercussion from that place and feeling of safety, until there are real consequences to you or your close ones. Back in the days advocating from the destruction of your own tribe and actively working towards it would have gotten you killed instantly, either by friend or foe. Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.
40   CBOEtrader   2018 Apr 3, 10:40am  

mell says
Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.


Virtue signaling is as old as society. Jonathon Haidt suggests ridiculous tribal religious beliefs are themselves an in group virtue signalling test. This allows group members to righteously declare their loyalty to the tribe, exactly as Patrick suggested Cathy Newman did. The more irrational, the larger the virtue signal.

Regarding SJW's, Jordan Peterson suggests that they are a poorly organized religion that was slapped together in the last 25 years. He believes religious affiliation to a group to be so intricately entwined into the human psyche that insane ideologies are expected human inventions to fill the chasm left by rejection of traditional religions.

This is why Nietsche (an atheist) predicted the end of Christianity in late 1800's as a forewarning of massive human created tragedies to come. Nietsche was absolutely spot on. The 20th century was plagued by evil ideologies, and the massive deaths resulting from them.

Like it or not, we are a tribal species. Religion is the core belief that binds a tribe. When religion is rejected, we see unsophisticated religious-like ideologies rush in to replace that psychological need.

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