1
0

Il dem candidate for governor wants to raise taxes even more.


 invite response                
2018 Apr 4, 9:24am   13,541 views  72 comments

by lostand confused   ➕follow (3)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-jb-pritzker-taxes-20180403-story.html

Democratic governor candidate J.B. Pritzker said Tuesday he would seek to temporarily raise Illinois’ flat income tax rate and boost credits and deductions while lawmakers consider changing the state constitution to allow for a graduated income tax.

Comments 1 - 40 of 72       Last »     Search these comments

1   Goran_K   2018 Apr 4, 9:25am  

The Illinois Economy is already hollowed out. Like getting blood from a rock.
2   lostand confused   2018 Apr 4, 9:35am  

I just don't understand democrats-one trick pony -I guess the vast number of people not paying taxes is their base. They take from us and give to them.
3   HappyGilmore   2018 Apr 4, 10:14am  

lostand confused says
I just don't understand democrats-one trick pony -I guess the vast number of people not paying taxes is their base. They take from us and give to them.


The main goal is this proposal is to change how revenue is collected. Reduce property tax, increase state tax. Make the state income tax graduated.
4   HappyGilmore   2018 Apr 4, 10:14am  

Goran_K says
The Illinois Economy is already hollowed out. Like getting blood from a rock.


Latest numbers I found easily were 2015 where IL is 5th in State GDP and 15th in GDP/capita. Seems to be doing fine.
5   Goran_K   2018 Apr 4, 10:15am  

HappyGilmore says
Latest numbers I found easily were 2015 where IL is 5th in State GDP and 15th in GDP/capita. Seems to be doing fine.


Just fine?



6   WookieMan   2018 Apr 4, 10:32am  

Can't recall if I've said it here, IL income taxes will compete with CA in a pretty short time. I think we'll be double digit income taxes by 2020-2022 regardless of any graduated income tax plan.

HappyGilmore says
Latest numbers I found easily were 2015 where IL is 5th in State GDP and 15th in GDP/capita. Seems to be doing fine.


Likely very true. IL is also really good at taking what was produced in the form of taxes.

HappyGilmore says
Reduce property tax, increase state tax. Make the state income tax graduated.


I'm actually okay with a graduated income tax. IF it actually reduces property taxes. It won't unfortunately. Local governments and municipalities are already receiving the money. You think they would actually cut?

Even a freeze would take 10-15 years to get inline with most normal states as far as property taxes go. If there is any increased revenue via a graduated tax, I can promise you it won't go into school funding (majority of local property taxes). It would have to go to pensions. There's not much wiggle room on this topic for IL unfortunately. I'm open for discussion on it, but IL is on Puerto Rico trajectory financially.
7   Goran_K   2018 Apr 4, 10:35am  

WookieMan says
I'm open for discussion on it, but IL is on Puerto Rico trajectory financially.


Facts.
8   lostand confused   2018 Apr 4, 11:26am  

HappyGilmore says
The main goal is this proposal is to change how revenue is collected. Reduce property tax, increase state tax. Make the state income tax graduated.

LOL and I have oceanfront property in AZ to sell . The vast majority of the last tax hike went to pensions. Why do you think this will be any different-where are the cuts-where is the constitutional amendment to pensions-crickets.
9   Ceffer   2018 Apr 4, 11:53am  

A liberal who espouses lower taxes is nothing more than a disoriented, failed parasite.
10   marcus   2018 Apr 4, 12:01pm  

lostand confused says
I just don't understand democrats-one trick pony -I guess the vast number of people not paying taxes is their base. They take from us and give to them.


Yes. I prefer republicans that will underfund pension liabilities for decades at a time, and then hand the problem over to democrats and say, "whatcha gonna do about this, you damn tax and spend liberal ?!"

Kicking the can down the road because solutions are unpopular sometimes lead to exactly this kind of situation.

Fortunately, Brown and a democrat controlled legislature initiated some solutions in California before it got nearly as bad as Illinois. Not that Ca is completely out of the woods, especially with Calpers.
11   Goran_K   2018 Apr 4, 12:03pm  

marcus says
Yes. I prefer republicans that will underfund pension liabilities for decades at a time, and then hand the problem over to democrats and say, "whatcha gonna do about this, you damn tax and spend liberal ?!"

Kicking the can down the road because solutions are unpopular sometimes lead to exactly this kind of situation


Why should the government be guaranteeing pensions in the first place?

Why not a market driven 401k?
12   FortWayne   2018 Apr 4, 12:16pm  

Liberals keep voting those taxer idiots in, and somehow think this time it’s different.

Idiocy has no limits.
13   marcus   2018 Apr 4, 12:29pm  

Goran_K says
Why not a market driven 401k?


Two somewhat unrelated points I would make.

First, just an observation. Even with the attractiveness of a defined benefit pension, there's plenty of room for improvement in the quality of the pool of people applying to go into education and law enforcement. After all, a pension is just something with monetary value. It's part of compensation. But it doesn't work if the government doesn't pay into it as they should. I guess it could be argued, if the money is paid up front (higher salaries for cops and teachers), and then have them use 401ks, it would prevent the govt from underfunding the compensation expenditures. I guess they still might be able to postpone their part of payments in to the 401ks. Would they then pay in to social security too, instead of the pensions ? Wouldn't they have to ?

By the way, when the employee and employer are both paying into a defined benefit pension fund instead of social security, the actual cost difference is smaller than what people imagine. People think of the entire cost, rather than the difference between this and social security (also a government guaranteed pension). But the state pension systems are blown up by the short changing of contributions on the state side. This is possibly in some cases related to intentional "starve the beast" right wing strategies.

The second and unrelated point. Initiating a change now, to 401ks doesn't help the situation of getting through the baby boomer retirement costs. In fact it would probably catastrophically harm them. Any switch to 401K plans would be phased in for new employees with the intent to honor the pensions of people well in to their careers,, or already retired. But part of what is going to make that possible - especially funding the next few decades (the demographic bubble of the baby boom) , is new employees replacing retiring employees and paying in to the pension funds (instead of switching to social security and a 401K combo on both the employee and employer side for those new employees).

Any plan to switch to 401ks is actually a plan to totally destroy the funds (or increase the unfunded liabilities), before people near retirement or not so near ever receive the pensions that they were promised.

I'm sure you weren't expecting nearly as serious an answer and maybe won't even take the time to understand. But there is more to your question than meets the eye.
14   marcus   2018 Apr 4, 12:35pm  

FortWayne says
Idiocy has no limits.


QED
15   socal2   2018 Apr 4, 12:53pm  

marcus says
Fortunately, Brown and a democrat controlled legislature initiated some solutions in California before it got nearly as bad as Illinois. Not that Ca is completely out of the woods, especially with Calpers.


Those "reforms" from Moonbeam are hardly making a dent into California's pension liabilities.

To Rahm Emanuel's credit, he tried some pension reforms - only to be shot down by the ridiculous Illinois Supreme Court who are bought and paid for by the public sector unions.

Our only prayer is if the California Supreme Court isn't as retarded as Illinois' court and strikes down the "California Rule" where cities can start instigating real reform and adjusting pension plans for current employees in the system.
16   HappyGilmore   2018 Apr 4, 12:57pm  

Goran_K says
Just fine?


Yep. The economy is doing fine.

If the point was that IL had a debt problem, then it would have been correct. But to say it's "hollowed out" is not correct.
17   Goran_K   2018 Apr 4, 12:58pm  

A local economy is fine when the state can’t afford to pay its short and long term liabilities without borrowing money or increasing taxes?

That screams insolvency. Not “fine”.
18   socal2   2018 Apr 4, 12:59pm  

marcus says
Any switch to 401K plans would be phased in for new employees with the intent to honor the pensions of people well in to their careers,, or already retired.


There is no digging out of this abyss unless existing employees already in the system accept some reform too. The damage is simply too large and too great to think it can be fixed by only adjusting pensions for new employees.

Basically existing employees and retirees keep everything they have already "earned" in their pension to date - but pension formulas will need to be adjusted going forward - especially for existing employees. Otherwise, you risk losing it all and watching more and more cities crumble and declare bankruptcy with the inability to pay CALPERS and the employees risk losing a huge chunk of their pensions like Loyalton and LA Works.
19   zzyzzx   2018 Apr 4, 1:16pm  

HappyGilmore says
The main goal is this proposal is to change how revenue is collected. Reduce property tax, increase state tax. Make the state income tax graduated.


More than likely it's a tax increase disguised as a property tax reduction.
20   Strategist   2018 Apr 4, 1:18pm  

lostand confused says
Democratic governor candidate J.B. Pritzker said Tuesday he would seek to temporarily raise Illinois’ flat income tax rate


Did he say "temporary" ROFL.
21   lostand confused   2018 Apr 4, 1:37pm  

zzyzzx says
More than likely it's a tax increase disguised as a property tax reductio

Yeah well , they won't reduce. They will just find another way to tack on taxes-for the children they will claim.
They just raised taxes by 32% and almost all went to pensions-now want to raise more.
22   mell   2018 Apr 4, 2:11pm  

Strategist says
lostand confused says
Democratic governor candidate J.B. Pritzker said Tuesday he would seek to temporarily raise Illinois’ flat income tax rate


Did he say "temporary" ROFL.


Any temporary tax raise needs to have the time-line codified into the new tax law and seek prison time for politicians if extended without proper re-vote and grace period in between. Otherwise temporary = forever in 100% of cases. Politicians always lie.
23   Nobody   2018 Apr 4, 2:26pm  

The flat income tax increase sounds like it will hit the lower income family harder than the rich.

It will always be the same scenario from the day that History has started. The rich will squeeze the lower income family.
Why there was a slavery in the first place? If there is no slavery, it must be replaced with something. It is the American way.
24   WookieMan   2018 Apr 4, 2:43pm  

lostand confused says
They just raised taxes by 32% and almost all went to pensions-now want to raise more.


I don't want it to be the case, but taxes are going to go up, and it's going to be whole lot more then 32% (from today's rate) before it's all said and done. The pension debt isn't even close to sustainable without 10% income taxes on pretty much anyone making $50k or more. Even that might not be enough with the slow but steady exodus of residents.

The reality is retired workers collecting their pensions have ZERO concern regarding state income tax (this includes private 401k retirees). They don't pay any income tax on their pensions and retirement payouts. So the required constitutional amendment to fix things is theoretically impossible based on the votes needed to get it done since a good chunk of people are retired, but also those that aren't, don't want their future pensions fucked with. The supreme court here ain't doing nothing with it comes to pension cut backs or reductions. We've literally locked ourselves in a bank safe, with no way out, and it's filling with water.

I've said it in other threads here, IL will need to be bailed out at some point. It's a when conversation, not if.
25   HappyGilmore   2018 Apr 4, 2:48pm  

Nobody says
The flat income tax increase sounds like it will hit the lower income family harder than the rich.


The article describes the details-it won't. The headline of this thread doesn't really describe the proposal at all. Anyone would be advised to read the proposal and decide themselves.
26   HappyGilmore   2018 Apr 4, 2:48pm  

Goran_K says
A local economy is fine when the state can’t afford to pay its short and long term liabilities without borrowing money or increasing taxes?

That screams insolvency. Not “fine”.


US Economy screams insolvency too then. Thanks Trump.
27   RWSGFY   2018 Apr 4, 3:06pm  

HappyGilmore says
The main goal is this proposal is to change how revenue is collected. Reduce property tax, increase state tax. Make the state income tax graduated.


... quietly drop "reduce property tax" part of the bargain.
28   lostand confused   2018 Apr 4, 3:07pm  

Hoouse Bill 3522, filed by state Rep. Robert Martwick, D-Chicago, would tax incomes between $0 and $7,500 at 4 percent. For income between $7,500 and $15,000, the rate would be 5.84 percent. For income between $15,000 and $225,000, the rate would be 6.27 percent. And for income over $225,000, the rate would be 7.65 percent.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/how-much-would-the-progressive-tax-cost-your-family/

Dem congress man already introduced this in Congress. basically anybody making 7,500 a year and over is looking at tax hike. Enough with these bums.
It won't pass without constitutional amendment-but this is what the IL gov is probably looking for-gov candidate.
29   Booger   2018 Apr 4, 3:49pm  

marcus says
But the state pension systems are blown up by the short changing of contributions on the state side
.

They are blown up by the luxurious pension benefits.
30   WookieMan   2018 Apr 4, 4:27pm  

marcus says
I guess it could be argued, if the money is paid up front (higher salaries for cops and teachers), and then have them use 401ks, it would prevent the govt from underfunding the compensation expenditures.


I missed this the first time around. Why would the pay need to be higher? As far as IL goes, most districts (specifically Chicago) cover a good chunk of the pension payment that the teacher SHOULD have covered from the beginning like any other private sector person would have to. Pay stays the same and teachers fund their own god damn retirement for once.
31   HowdyThere   2018 Apr 4, 4:55pm  

Did a quick bit of Google research.

Illinois has $2.3 billion in debt, and a population of 12.8 million people. That's close to $16,000 per person.

At the federal level, the US debt is $19.9 trillion and about 325 million people. That's around $60,000 per person.

So everyone in Illinois, from babies to seniors, has $76,0000 of debt taken out on their behalf by Fed and State government.
32   FortWayne   2018 Apr 4, 4:57pm  

HowdyThere says
Did a quick bit of Google research.

Illinois has $2.3 billion in debt, and a population of 12.8 million people. That's close to $16,000 per person.

At the federal level, the US debt is $19.9 trillion and about 325 million people. That's around $60,000 per person.

So everyone in Illinois, from babies to seniors, has $76,0000 of debt taken out on their behalf by Fed and State government.


And I can absolutely guarantee that those people just like the rest of us are not getting our moneys worth.
33   Patrick   2018 Apr 4, 5:12pm  

I think governments should not be allowed to borrow money at all, ever. And I count future liabilities such as pension payments as borrowing.

They should fund the current year out of the current tax income, and if they want to fund a large project, they should save up for it first.
34   WookieMan   2018 Apr 4, 5:13pm  

HowdyThere says
Illinois has $2.3 billion in debt, and a population of 12.8 million people. That's close to $16,000 per person.


Fuck! And we don't even have any aircraft carriers, jets and the like! $16k per person vs. $60k per person. Think about that. Just one state.
35   HowdyThere   2018 Apr 4, 5:34pm  

Patrick says
They should fund the current year out of the current tax income, and if they want to fund a large project, they should save up for it first.


The tricky part is how to budget when one doesn't* know for sure how much tax is going to be collected. Governments are notoriously bad for being overly optimistic. Given that economies tend to grow over time, I thought the best method wold be to limit budgets to actual receipts from, say, 3 years previous. That way governments would tend to run surpluses most of the time. Some of the retained earnings would get used up during downturns or used for large projects.

Thoughts?

* had to change to 'one doesn't' from 'U don't' due to the new filter.
36   lostand confused   2018 Apr 4, 5:38pm  

WookieMan says
HowdyThere says
Illinois has $2.3 billion in debt, and a population of 12.8 million people. That's close to $16,000 per person.


Fuck! And we don't even have any aircraft carriers, jets and the like! $16k per person vs. $60k per person. Think about that. Just one state.


Well then there is the additional 200 + billion in state and local retirement benefits.
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/203-billion-and-counting-total-debt-for-state-and-local-retirement-benefits-in-illinois/
37   WookieMan   2018 Apr 4, 5:40pm  

HowdyThere says
That way governments would tend to run surpluses most of the time. Some of the retained earnings would get used up during downturns or used for large projects.


The logic is sound in my opinion. Problem is getting government to run a surplus. Government and surplus in the same sentence is like a Nazi and a Jew having a beer in 1939. Not happening.
38   FortWayne   2018 Apr 4, 5:55pm  

If they get money, they got plenty of friends to give it to.

He’s right, government has no incentive to save... spending other people’s money with no accountability is frivolous. And in one party CA, they don’t have to worry about competition.

WookieMan says
HowdyThere says
That way governments would tend to run surpluses most of the time. Some of the retained earnings would get used up during downturns or used for large projects.


The logic is sound in my opinion. Problem is getting government to run a surplus. Government and surplus in the same sentence is like a Nazi and a Jew having a beer in 1939. Not happening.
39   HowdyThere   2018 Apr 4, 5:56pm  

Apparently there are a bunch of state debt clocks that have per capita numbers. A few random choices, with some rounding:

New York is close to $18K
Wisconsin is a mere $7.7K
Colorado $10.6K
California, a surprisingly low $10.8K
Texas $10.4K
Virginia $7.8K
Michigan $7.8K

I checked Illinois as well, to see how my back-of-the-napkin calculation compared, and the clock said $11.6K. Not sure why there's such a difference.

Figured I better check Federal as well in case there was a similar discrepancy, but it shows at $64K. My calc was 2017 numbers I believe, while the debt clock is supposed to be real time, so no big surprising difference.

I'm from Ontario Canada, where one source says it's $21.5K per person in Provincial debt. Fortunately it's in Canadian dollars so not as bad as it seems /snark.

Canadian Fed debt is only $17.6 per person, which sounds like a real bargain.
40   marcus   2018 Apr 4, 6:44pm  

socal2 says
Basically existing employees and retirees keep everything they have already "earned" in their pension to date


That's unfair, becasue the pension funds are in place of social security, the employees and the state all pay in. You don't know how much of a royal fucking over you are suggesting they take.

Are you going to do that for social security too ?

Comments 1 - 40 of 72       Last »     Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions