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Interesting discussion of Trumpocracy - David Frum

By marcus following x   2018 Apr 30, 9:54pm 1,991 views   35 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


He's a very intelligent conservative. If you're only going to listen to a few minutes, start at 14:50.
1   TwoScoopsOfWompWomp   ignore (2)   2018 Apr 30, 9:56pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I thought he was the Bush Punk who invented the divisive phrase "Axis of Evil". The speechwriter who "Lied us into the Iraq War".
3   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 6:27am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
his worldview goes something like this:

Life is nothing but a dog-eat-dog game. The only value is being top dog. Winning is its own reward and the only reward. The power you gain by winning isn’t for anything else. Winners play the game undistracted by other values.

All other supposed values are just means to that end. Duping others into thinking you care about other values, like welfare or making America great again, is how you play to win. Losers lose because they’re distracted by other values.

To win, you need to use other people’s values against them. Other values are the loser’s handicap. You can get them to help you win by convincing them that you care about what they care about.

To winners, values are free lip-service bargaining chips. They’re free because lip service costs nothing; they’re bargaining chips in that losers value them.

You can get people to help you win the game if you give lip service to those other values – just enough to ke...


I believe that so many perceptive people could read Trump, and that this is what he's all about.

It begs the question, other than punishing the rest of us, what motivated the typical middle class and working class Trump voter ? I get why the plutocrats and even a lot of hard core republicans were willing to tolerate him in return for what they will get (or believed they would get) policy-wise.

IF you listen to people around here, you'll believe that the reason they voted for Trump was one of the following:

1) CRazy crazy crazy notions that everything you don't like in the world, such as the fact that all the good locations for real estate are already owned by people is somehow the fault of "progressives." Some will say, Obama specifically.

2) Too much political correctness, which makes little sense, except with repect to the most extreme SJWs who are shunned sufficiantly by the mainstream and will be self correcting.

3) A somewhat insane belief that the U.S. can somehow become an island onto itself (nationalism) no longer a huge player in the corporate global marketplace, and that when that happens somehow the owners will undo decades of pushing down the real earnings of 2 income household workers, and bring back middle class and working class earning power of the 60s, out of the kindness of their hearts. People can sell this nonsense, but nobody intelligent believes it.

Those are the reasons. I'm told it had absolutely nothing to do with racism.
4   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (32)   2018 May 1, 6:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

IT CAN'T BE ABOUT THE MONEY!

TRUMPCUNT! HAS! NONE!

WHEN DEUTSCHEBANK IS FORCED TO CALL THE NOTE:

TRUMPCUNT! IS! FUCKED!
5   dr6B   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 7:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says
TRUMPCUNT

NanoPENIS!! not CUNT!
6   HEYYOU   ignore (16)   2018 May 1, 8:11am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I'm waiting to see what Trumpocracy does to his believers.
7   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 1, 8:38am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

It doesn’t matter what progressives think. Not at all! The only thing that matters is results. So far the results of a Trump Presidency are overwhelmingly positive for the economy, the middle class, minorities, and business, and many spheres of awesomeness. The incumbent advantage is already working here. The approval rating is climbing steadily as workers get bigger paychecks, more job opportunities, feel more secure, and have less nuclear war to worry about. Trump’s election was a referendum on Obama’s presidential reign of failure. There was no Democrat incumbent advantage because people were unhappy with the direction of the country.
That’s why.
8   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 May 1, 8:46am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Nice Strawman Marcus. Show me an article where any Trump supporter has ever used one of the idiotic examples you listed. Just one. We'll be waiting.

Trump was elected because he is anti-war and pro American. Simple.
9   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 11:04am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
That may seem a moral accusation, but I mean it merely as a psychological diagnosis based on the evidence. Unconstrained by any other value, he’ll say and do anything to win.


The real diagnostic is the moral side of it.
The fact that he lies all the time just means he understands that the core of politics is not based on truthful utterances but emotional ones. "The wall" sounds protective, and that's that.

People voted for him because they were ass raped by both parties with immigration, trade for 35 yrs and cowed into compliance with political correctness and condescending moralizations like "if you're against immigration, you're a racist" (no possible other reasons), "if you're against trade, you don't understand economics.".

The logic and processes of western liberal democracies are just broken and don't work for a majority of the population, but all the opposition has to propose is to ram more of the same.

That Trump was elected should inspire, not hatred for Trump, but deep introspection and mea culpa from the elites that is still to this day completely missing.
10   jazz_music   ignore (4)   2018 May 1, 2:46pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
as workers get bigger paychecks, more job opportunities, feel more secure, and have less nuclear war to worry about.

Bwaaa hahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

Rigggghhht

Watch Fox listen to Limbaugh read Drudge and Breitbart and this is the great big wonderful reality.

Bwaaa hahahahahahahahaaaaaaa
11   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 1, 3:17pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

jazz_music says
Rigggghhht


I’m happy that you finally agree!
12   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 May 1, 3:19pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
That Trump was elected should inspire, not hatred for Trump, but deep introspection and mea culpa from the elites that is still to this day completely missing


This.
100% undiluted truth
13   jazz_music   ignore (4)   2018 May 1, 3:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
I’m happy that you finally agree!

Aaaaa hahahahahahahahahaaaaaa
14   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 5:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
People voted for him because they were ass raped by both parties with immigration, trade for 35 yrs and cowed into compliance with political correctness and condescending moralizations like "if you're against immigration, you're a racist" (no possible other reasons), "if you're against trade, you don't understand economics.".


This may account for a decent number of people that voted for him. But in order to have gotten close to half of the vote, even if you include Russian propaganda on Facebook, and Comey's excellent timing with comments about Clinton still being investigated days before the election, and how terrible a candidate she was anyway, it still took more to elect the likes of Trump.

I personally think it was the racists that put Trump over the top. And no, this isn't saying that you Trump fanboys here on this forum are racists. I don't really know one way or the other about that.
15   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 6:14pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

marcus says
how terrible a candidate she was anyway


She was terrible because she represented the status quo, just more of the same. The same establishment with a lock on all processes. The same crony capitalists and lobbyists buying laws while the rest of the countries crumbles.

Cheating on Sanders made it clear for a lot of people that the system was rigged and ultimately that's what made many willing to do whatever to vote against her, or at least not vote for her.

I'm not defending Trump. I don't think anything substantial has changed at least so far. But there is a deeper issue here.

marcus says
I personally think it was the racists that put Trump over the top.


This is exactly what I'm saying: anyone who is against mass unlimited immigration MUST be a racist. There is no other possible explanation.
16   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 May 1, 6:20pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
This is exactly what I'm saying: anyone who is against mass unlimited immigration MUST be a racist.


Why is it that when I didn't imply that in the slightest, it's your interpretation ? Maybe read the whole comment. My opinion of how Trump was elected is far more complex than that.

marcus says
Heraclitusstudent says
People voted for him because they were ass raped by both parties with immigration, trade for 35 yrs and cowed into compliance with political correctness and condescending moralizations like "if you're against immigration, you're a racist" (no possible other reasons), "if you're against trade, you don't understand economics.".


This may account for a decent number of people that voted for him.


Apparently you're another one that doesn't comprehend how much has to be overlooked to go with Trump. Maybe watch the video at the top of the thread.
17   TwoScoopsOfWompWomp   ignore (2)   2018 May 1, 6:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Did the Democratic party get rid of Superdelegates yet?

Also, when is the DNC handing over the server to Agencies to help track down the Hackers and prove the Russians were in on it?
18   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 May 1, 10:28pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

marcus says
I personally think it was the racists


Pure fantasy. The left is FAR more racist than Trump supporters today.

If the right is so racist, show me a single rightwing leader who said anything racist whatsoever.

This leftist moral high ground fantasy is not only pure delusion, its dangerous. This is exactly the type of righteousness that results in tyranny. See Nazis in the 1930's or the early Bolsheviks for examples.
19   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 May 1, 10:32pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        



Nothing like this happens on the right. Never. Not even once. Ever.
20   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 May 2, 6:27am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says


This is exactly what I'm saying: anyone who is against mass unlimited immigration MUST be a racist.


Curiosity overwhelms me where is this mythical mass unlimited immigration found for someone to be against?
21   FNWGMOBDVZXDNW   ignore (2)   2018 May 2, 6:45am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

CBOEtrader says
Nothing like this happens on the right. Never. Not even once. Ever

The right has Timothy McVeigh. For ever. Period.
22   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 May 2, 6:47am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Quigley says
So far the results of a Trump Presidency are overwhelmingly positive for the economy, the middle class, minorities, and business, and many spheres of awesomeness


HEYYOU says
Trump’s election was a referendum on Obama’s presidential reign of failure.


How is 10% unemployment to 4.4%, 12 million new jobs, business profits up 60%, house prices up 30% a reign of failure in the alternative facts universe? What would you call the bush presidency then? A reign of success?

Trumps election was a referendum on
a. How utterly failed the primary system has become for both parties. The better candidates simply don't run in either party or if they do the loony fringes make it impossible to get nominated. .
b. The gullibility of an electorate to hucksters selling snake oil. There is no end to examples of this in history.
23   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (1)   2018 May 2, 1:00pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

bob2356 says
Curiosity overwhelms me where is this mythical mass unlimited immigration found for someone to be against?

How many is this? 12 millions illegals immigrants? this is not mass immigration?
Sanctuary cities/states: these are not steps to deliberately refuse to enforce any immigration laws? Leading... to immigration unlimited by laws?
24   P N Dr Lo R   ignore (0)   2018 May 2, 3:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
when the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies
It's a pretty good indication we're on the right track.
25   jazz_music   ignore (4)   2018 May 2, 4:27pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

P N Dr Lo R says
Feux Follets says
when the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies
It's a pretty good indication we're on the right track.

People who don't the GENIUS in that must violently ram their heads into walls over and over again SCREAMING those magic words

"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
"When the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies it's a pretty good indication we're on the right track."
26   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 May 2, 4:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

P N Dr Lo R says
Feux Follets says
when the whole world is in opposition to your ideology and policies
It's a pretty good indication we're on the right track.


The pretension of the left is insufferable. I like how they think they can read the minds of both Trump and his supporters.

"It must be racism" etc...

Guys try critiquing actual policy and diplomatic decisions. When in doubt, use the results as a guide.

So far, Trump is the best POTUS since JFK. This is unfortunately not saying much but still...
27   P N Dr Lo R   ignore (0)   2018 May 2, 5:07pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

jazz_music says
People who don't the GENIUS in that must violently ram their heads into walls over and over again SCREAMING those magic words
Was this supposed to be a sentence?
28   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 May 3, 3:54am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Heraclitusstudent says
How many is this? 12 millions illegals immigrants? this is not mass immigration?
Sanctuary cities/states: these are not steps to deliberately refuse to enforce any immigration laws? Leading... to immigration unlimited by laws?


12 million in the 30 years since republican god reagan granted amnesty to illegals? Obviously there is an alternative dictionary I'm not familiar with that some people are using to define words like mass and unlimited. Local law enforcement has no obligation of any kind to enforce federal civil law. A basic knowledge of the legal structure of the country wouldn't be a bad thing to have.

Your guy trump could have the illegals gone in a year or less. Just start throwing anyone from a plumber to a ceo caught hiring an illegal in jail. Where is your outrage it isn't being done? Curiously absent.

Why build a wall? Unless trump just wanted to fire up the base by doing something that won't work but sounds good. Then he doesn't piss off the big bucks donors making billions from having illegals either. Bonus points, lots of federal spending for friends of trump.

Bread and circus for the great unwashed, works every time. Patnet proves that day after day.
29   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 May 3, 5:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

This.
Except you are wrong about it being shunned by the mainstream.
It's in our faces 24/7, except on fox.
People are being driven to fox because of it.

marcus says
2) Too much political correctness, which makes little sense, except with repect to the most extreme SJWs who are shunned sufficiantly by the mainstream
30   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 May 3, 6:03am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Bingo.
All politicians lie most of the time.
Trump is unique in that he does not attempt to hide it. He wears it on his sleeve.

Heraclitusstudent says
The fact that he lies all the time just means he understands that the core of politics is not based on truthful utterances but emotional ones
31   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 May 3, 6:08am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Racists have always latched on to the more conservative party.
Only swing voters can 'put somebody over the top'

marcus says
I personally think it was the racists that put Trump over the top. And no, this isn't saying that you Trump fanboys here on this forum are racists. I don't really know one way or the other about that.
32   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 May 3, 6:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

I understand your point however, that video is trump lying at his best...
To not know who david duke is means you've had your head up your ass for the better part of the 21st century...

marcus says
I personally think it was the racists that put Trump over the top. And no, this isn't saying that you Trump fanboys here on this forum are racists. I don't really know one way or the other about that.
33   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 May 3, 6:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

The moral here is that politicians are liars, and will say anything to not isolate any voting block.
Except when it comes to the KKK, both parties have always disavowed them.
So this leaves trump having his head up his ass for the better part of the 21st century as the razor occam used.
Which correlates with why voters shoved him into the whitehouse. To cause a major disruption in the system, toughen up the libbies with trumps blatant lies and overall incompetence so they recede from going all PC overboard on everybody all the time.
34   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 May 3, 6:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

BlueSardine says
Except you are wrong about it being shunned by the mainstream.


THe extreme sjw stuff, such as that girl getting harassed for wearing an Asian style prom dress (supposedly cultural appropriation), or the craziness at Evergreen, or at Yale a couple years ago, and many other examples, is almost totally rejected by the mainstream.

But if you mean the tension between those that think the best coarse of action with respect to Islam is not to make the religion Islam itself the enemy ? THen sure. But that disagreement isn't based simply on some kind of political correctness. For many it's based on a legitimate disagreement, and a belief that declaring war on Islam would be giving the terrorists exactly what they want. Or if you mean some people question whether too many cops are cowardly or otherwise not qualified to use a gun, then yes, a lot in the mainstream take issue with itchy trigger finger cops. (I'm guessing that especially good cops hate it - but have a problem stepping up and dissing their bretheren, especially since in any indivual case it's hard to know for certain).

The reason Jordan Peterson is so hugely popular with the mainstream is that like him so many people reject the idea of having laws about pronouns, and generally people don't like the promotion of multiple genders etc. I think changing genders is a very questionable practice and often leads to unhappiness, and that it's too much focus on the self in the first place. But for those that do it, many just want to be the other gender, and not some other bizzarro world gender.
35   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 May 3, 6:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

But I'll admit that a lot of the alt right or general right wing folks love to promote that the left is dominated by sjws and wierdos.

Funny how you guys do that. But when I very clearly state something about a minority of racists on the right that helped make Trump PResident, you guys always get triggered and interpret it as my saying that everyone that likes TRump is racist. OR that we are conflating anti immigration with racism. Actually some of it is.

YOu might find this informative. An opinion piece with a lot of facts in it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/opinion/trump-asylum-immigration-caravans.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region


Under international treaties and its own laws, the United States is obliged to allow foreigners inside the country or at its ports of entry to apply for asylum. It’s a daunting process, beginning with a “credible fear” interview to determine if there’s evidence that the applicant faces persecution or death back home. If the applicant passes that, the next step is plunging into an immigration court system that can take years to reach a decision. More than three-quarters of asylum-seekers from the northern triangle who came before the court were rejected from 2011 to 2017, according to TRAC, a research institute at Syracuse University.

Those in the caravans know this,
since they are generally accompanied on their trek by organizers who lay out their options. This spring, about 700 people left the Mexican town of Tapachula, on the Guatemalan border, on March 25. Their ranks eventually swelled to about 1,200, from infants to the elderly. Most chose to remain in Mexico, which, despite a flawed asylum program, has become a favored destination for migrants. About 300 continued to Tijuana. Organizers and lawyers told about 200, mostly children, that they had a chance to gain asylum after applying at the San Ysidro crossing into San Diego.

Organizations that monitor immigration say American officials have come up with a variety of tactics to discourage asylum-seekers. One is to separate family members; another, attempted with the current caravan, is to claim that the port of entry has “reached capacity.” (Attorney General Jeff Sessions began to address that on Wednesday by sending more Justice Department lawyers and judges to process cases at the border.)

Finally, 24 hours after they arrived, the first group of eight migrants — three mothers with four children and an 18-year-old man — were allowed to apply for asylum on Monday evening. There was no telling how many would be allowed to follow.

Meanwhile, as this trickle began, the president roared on Twitter: “The migrant ‘caravan’ that is openly defying our border shows how weak & ineffective U.S. immigration laws are.”

The vetting of the caravan, in fact, shows that the immigration laws are quite strict, and that they work. That Mr. Trump says otherwise shows he sees not a group of fearful people fleeing from terror to freedom, but an opportunity to fan the flames of bigotry.




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