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Talks between America and North Korea might succeed—at a terrible price

By Feux Follets following x   2018 Jun 12, 5:34am 685 views   39 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


WHEN a great power promises a smaller country a “win-win” deal, diplomats mordantly joke, that means the great power plans to win twice. Yet the summit between America and North Korea in Singapore on June 12th may prove an exception: a negotiation that could conceivably allow not only the two main protagonists to preen and claim victory, but that might also please several interested observers. Both South Korea and China have high hopes for the meeting. Japan is more suspicious. But the biggest loser, if a deal is struck, is likely to be totally obscured by the flashing cameras and swooning anchors: the American-led security architecture that has brought decades of stability to Asia.

Diplomacy between America and North Korea has always had a surreal edge. At a powwow in 2000 in Pyongyang, the North Korean capital, Madeleine Albright, then America’s secretary of state, was greeted with mass callisthenics and bayonet drills. The two sides have been negotiating over the North’s nuclear-weapons programme since 1992, when Kim Il Sung, the grandfather of the current despot, Kim Jong Un, was in power (see timeline). The North has broken many promises to forgo nuclear arms. Korea-watchers have long debated whether the Kim regime sees nuclear weapons as vital to its survival, or rather as useful leverage over the outside world. After all, the North’s ability to pound the capital of the South, Seoul, with thousands of dug-in artillery pieces has given it decades of deterrence without nukes.



Either way, the “complete, verifiable and irreversible disarmament” that America seeks is probably out of reach. But the summit could still be declared a success, as both President Donald Trump and the young Mr Kim seem keen to make it so. Simply meeting face-to-face will allow them to crow about their fortitude and foresight in forcing the other to the table.

The White House staked early bragging rights on June 4th. Team Trump marked the boss’s 500th day in office—or as aides put it, “President Donald J. Trump’s 500 days of American Greatness”—with an assertion that the American-led campaign to tighten UN sanctions on North Korea over the past 18 months is responsible for pushing the North closer than ever before to giving up its deadly arsenal. Under Mr Trump, America has pursued a policy of “maximum pressure” on the North, including threats to rain “fire and fury” on it should it persist in its intransigence.

Back in his Stalinist dystopia, Mr Kim has peddled a conflicting but equally stirring story, says a scholar from a Chinese government-sponsored think-tank who travels to North Korea several times a year. “Kim Jong Un has told the North Korean elites that when they kept testing nuclear weapons and missiles last year, the aim was to force the United States to the table,” the scholar says. “So the North Korean people think this is a victory for Kim Jong Un.”

Instead, one theory holds, Mr Kim will offer Mr Trump a choice: either an immediate scrapping of missiles capable of hitting America, or a slower, step-by-step programme of the sort previously attempted, leading to the eventual dismantling of the North’s nuclear programme. That would be a trap, albeit an open one. In all likelihood, the step-by-step process would go the way its predecessors have, with North Korea benefiting from the easing of sanctions before pulling out in time to preserve its nuclear capacity. One possible fudge (and source of future disputes) would be for the North to give up nuclear weapons but to retain nuclear facilities that could be depicted as civilian. Mr Trump might find a limited deal on missiles appealing, by contrast: it would allow him to say he had kept his promise to protect America.

Much More: http://www.paywallnews.com/news/Talks-between-America-and-North-Korea-might-succeed%E2%80%94at-a-terrible-price.r1uBt-hxQ.html

#Korea #Kim #Trump

1   Tenpoundbass   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 12, 6:32am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

NK owes You about as much as Iran does, Cuba, Venezuela, or even Puerto Rico for that matter.

Get over yourselves Trump is wining Again!
2   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 6:43am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Tenpoundbass says
Get over yourselves Trump is wining Again!


I don't understand WHY, when there is good news to report, it's immediately dismissed as negative. Lots of triggered Dem's. Trump is going to win 2020 at this rate.
3   Hassan_Rouhani   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 7:56am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
Instead, one theory holds, Mr Kim will offer Mr Trump a choice: either an immediate scrapping of missiles capable of hitting America, or a slower, step-by-step programme of the sort previously attempted, leading to the eventual dismantling of the North’s nuclear programme. That would be a trap, albeit an open one. In all likelihood, the step-by-step process would go the way its predecessors have, with North Korea benefiting from the easing of sanctions before pulling out in time to preserve its nuclear capacity. One possible fudge (and source of future disputes) would be for the North to give up nuclear weapons but to retain nuclear facilities that could be depicted as civilian.


This basically describes "Iran deal", albeit slightly less sweet because Iran was also getting a path to legal bomb in 10 years.
4   HEYYOU   ignore (13)   2018 Jun 12, 8:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Rep/Con/Trumpsters need to get over themselves.
Everyone one of these is a liberal socialists.
Proof: Friday when one gets their check see if Trump has taken his share.
Taxes are Socialism!
5   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 9:02am   ↑ like (7)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

joshuatrio says
I don't understand WHY, when there is good news to report, it's immediately dismissed as negative. Lots of triggered Dem's. Trump is going to win 2020 at this rate.


It's basically Saul Alinsky 101, tactics he learned from his mafia friends, tarnish, spin, twist, and project. The Democrat party has become like organized crime.

- "If Trump is elected, the economy will crash."
- "If ObamaCare individual mandate is removed, then 14,000,000 people will die."
- "If net neutrality is repealed (which only came into effect 5 years ago), the internet will implode and cease to exist if you make under $10,000,000 a year.
- "Trump's harsh rhetoric with NK is going to get us nuked."

It's a consistent spin cycle of falsehoods and lies, and it's effective in getting the lowest level of the IQ spectrum to jump on board and vote Democrat (I say this as a former Democrat), but once you look deeper at what's actually happening, the red pilling is blinding.
6   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (4)   2018 Jun 12, 9:07am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Goran_K says
It's a consistent spin cycle of falsehoods and lies, and it's effective in getting the lowest level of the IQ spectrum to jump on board and vote Democrat (I say this as a former Democrat), but once you look deeper at what's actually happening, the red pilling is blinding.


It's exactly what pushed you and others away from the Democrats. When your personal observations conflict with the news that is being reported, you can either become delusional and deny that which you observe, or you can reject the mainstream news.
7   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 9:24am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

The TDS is strong with this one. Small petty men have ever picked at the toenails of giants.
8   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 9:27am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

TDS is reaching a crescendo following this historic #win. The left wasn't always like this, they had reality based politicians, patriots, working class defending, peace-loving people. None of them are left, they have been replaced with a war-mongering globalist cultural-marxist billionaire/career-politician clown-brigade ruling over their bizarre 1 million-gendered degenerate SJW soy freaks, hell bent on destroying everything that made the west the dominant force in the world. I miss the old left, I really do.
9   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 9:43am   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

CovfefeButDeadly says
It's exactly what pushed you and others away from the Democrats. When your personal observations conflict with the news that is being reported, you can either become delusional and deny that which you observe, or you can reject the mainstream news.


And that happens. I remember in 2008 when Obama was running, I was trying to convince myself he was worth voting for, ignoring his race baiting during the South Carolina primary, ignoring his grandstanding on race during the debates. I was still on his team until Obama commented on the whole Jeremiah Wright fiasco. As some of you may remember, during Obama's first campaign, Wright made some extremely incendiary remarks about race relations in the United States, about Israel, and about America in general, and it was found Obama had been a member of Wright's congregation for two decades.

""We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," he said. "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now brought right back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."." - Jeremiah Wright on the 9/11 attacks

I read that and thought there's no way Obama can let this slide. Then he went on TV and basically said, "I disagree wholeheartedly with this man's comments but I still support him as a person and think he shouldn't be judged for some out of context comments." That's when I knew Obama was going to be a dishonest spinster, and history proved me right ("My School In Indonesia Was Christian", "You can keep your doctor", etc). So I jumped on the Ron Paul bandwagon and never looked back.
12   TwoScoopsOfWompWomp   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 11:24am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Possibility that dprk wants to be free of China as well. Rueters said Trump was willing to guarantee BOTH Koreas
13   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 11:39am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Goran_K says
CovfefeButDeadly says
It's exactly what pushed you and others away from the Democrats. When your personal observations conflict with the news that is being reported, you can either become delusional and deny that which you observe, or you can reject the mainstream news.


And that happens. I remember in 2008 when Obama was running, I was trying to convince myself he was worth voting for, ignoring his race baiting during the South Carolina primary, ignoring his grandstanding on race during the debates. I was still on his team until Obama commented on the whole Jeremiah Wright fiasco. As some of you may remember, during Obama's first campaign, Wright made some extremely incendiary remarks about race relations in the United States, about Israel, and about America in general, and it was found Obama had been a member of Wright's congregation for two decades.

""We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed N...


I supported Obama first term. There were strings of disappointments, and then a decisive moment of domestic policy fuck-up for me was the Zimmerman/Martin case where he basically came out without any facts and put the blanket rays cyst accusation on whitey. And worse, when the doctored news-tapes and fact after fact in Zimmerman's favor came out he didn't retract any of this.
14   RC2006   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 11:46am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

mell says
I supported Obama first term. There were strings of disappointments, and then a decisive moment of domestic policy fuck-up for me was the Zimmerman/Martin case where he basically came out without any facts and put the blanket rays cyst accusation on whitey. And worse, when the doctored news-tapes and fact after fact in Zimmerman's favor came out he didn't retract any of this.


This was about it for me, the way he got involved with this created BLM and a string of racist anti white sjw shit that followed.
15   lostand confused   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 11:46am   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Me too. Traditionally i would be a democrat-want a big chunk of people to be prosperous , look after the masses and mostly freedom and not have people tell you what to do.

Traditionally repubs were the champions of the deep state, very corporate free trade etc etc. Now dems champion free trade, strongly support the deep state and use the deep state to spy on political opponents, love the NSA and basically suppress free speech and are willing to use violence to supress thought.
Also the govt taxes to support agianst bureaucracy.

Plus if you dare oppose them-you are an evil racist. I have shared my experience at being in the Trump rallies in IL. The visceral hate is scary and if it gathers critical mass, can reach Stalin levels.

They honestly scare me, I am still in support of traditional dem principles-but that party is long gone and only the repubs will have me. So here I am.

I
16   Feux Follets   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 12:04pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

If anyone had bothered to read the article entirely and then find out where it came from and when it was written, it was penned on the 7th of June which is days before the summit. Of course I am guessing none of the Trumpette camp can say what the source is as well and when or if they do immediately paint is a liberal rag whose only existence is to slam Tump and never give him credit for winning without considering what was actually being discussed.

Of course in terms of rebuttal there is nothing of any consequence offered on any part of it except to start once again on the TDS bullshit rant.

Score is now Kim 5. Potus 3/4 of 1 maybe...

As I said earlier the hype around this was the same as with a Ali / Liston heavyweight match (the outcome known before the fight started) with the only thing missing being Don King and Rodman isn't even a poor substitute.
17   Feux Follets   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 12:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

China is ahead of Trump on this as well. Kim 5, China 2, Potus 3/4 of 1 maybe...

Maybe when Kim puts up that giant Golden statue of Trump between his father and grandfather - things will go better. That and Trump branded Hotels, Casinos and Re-education camps around the country.
18   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 1:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

joshuatrio says
Tenpoundbass says
Get over yourselves Trump is wining Again!


I don't understand WHY, when there is good news to report, it's immediately dismissed as negative


Where is the winning? There were 2 actual real signed nuclear deals already and nothing happened. All that has happened so far is trump and K saying let's do lunch some time. I'll applaud after there are results not self promoting.

Where is the negative in pointing out the realities of the situation anyway? It's called analysis which is neither positive or negative.
19   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 1:56pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

bob2356 says
Where is the winning? There were 2 actual real signed nuclear deals already and nothing happened. All that has happened so far is trump and K saying let's do lunch some time. I'll applaud after there are results not self promoting.

Where is the negative in pointing out the realities of the situation anyway? It's called analysis which is neither positive or negative.


For starters, I'd say two countries having an open dialogue is a great start. That's more than previous Presidents.

If the end goal is de-nuclearization, why all the media hate? If Obama had done this, he would have been given a gold star and a key to the city.

Better than threats, tweets, lines in the sand etc..
20   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 1:57pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

RC2006 says

I supported Obama first term. There were strings of disappointments, and then a decisive moment of domestic policy fuck-up for me was the Zimmerman/Martin case where he basically came out without any facts and put the blanket rays cyst accusation on whitey. And worse, when the doctored news-tapes and fact after fact in Zimmerman's favor came out he didn't retract any of this.


This was about it for me, the way he got involved with this created BLM and a string of racist anti white sjw shit that followed.


Same here... + the Obamacare disaster.
21   TwoScoopsOfWompWomp   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 1:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Feux Follets says
China is ahead of Trump on this as well. Kim 5, China 2, Potus 3/4 of 1 maybe...


Just by this meeting happening, China is -5.
22   TwoScoopsOfWompWomp   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 1:59pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

joshuatrio says
If the end goal is de-nuclearization, why all the media hate? If Obama had done this, he would have been given a gold star and a key to the city.


Getting a country with Nukes to denuclearize is 10x harder than stopping one from nuclearizing. Trump hasn't handed out billions in cash just to get some limited, time-constrained inspections.
23   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 2:22pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

mell says
I supported Obama first term. There were strings of disappointments, and then a decisive moment of domestic policy fuck-up for me was the Zimmerman/Martin case where he basically came out without any facts and put the blanket rays cyst accusation on whitey. And worse, when the doctored news-tapes and fact after fact in Zimmerman's favor came out he didn't retract any of this.


Forgot about that, but by that time I was way off the Democrat plantation. I remember them lightening up Zimmerman's face (he's half latino) on CNN. That's when I knew Obama was one dangerous race bating fuck.
24   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 2:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Goran_K says
mell says
I supported Obama first term. There were strings of disappointments, and then a decisive moment of domestic policy fuck-up for me was the Zimmerman/Martin case where he basically came out without any facts and put the blanket rays cyst accusation on whitey. And worse, when the doctored news-tapes and fact after fact in Zimmerman's favor came out he didn't retract any of this.


Forgot about that, but by that time I was way off the Democrat plantation. I remember them lightening up Zimmerman's face (he's half latino) on CNN. That's when I knew Obama was one dangerous race bating fuck.


Yeah, I still think it's stunning that there were close to zero consequences to basically tampering with evidence Orwellian-style. They cut into the tape by Zimmerman saying "he's black" then they cut it out for a while only to cut in again when he was saying something akin to "so he's up to no good" or similar. WTF? I mean maybe technically omission is not tampering but you can literally cut together anything skillfully enough to make anyone look like hitler. Yeah and the face-whitening.
25   Goran_K   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 2:38pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

This is Obama's legacy.





This is why Trump was elected.
26   Feux Follets   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 12, 6:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

248 views, 25 comments and virtually nothing of substance relating to the OP except TDS is running amuck, Obama running, Obamacare pretty much anything but the issue at hand.

Kind of tells me there is little to defend then.
27   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 6:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Yeah cause there's nothing to defend in a historic meeting the thread quickly diverted.
30   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 7:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote        

Why am I reminded of Bush's famous: "Mission Accomplished"
31   bob2356   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 9:53pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

joshuatrio says


For starters, I'd say two countries having an open dialogue is a great start. That's more than previous Presidents.


There has been a dialogue for 25 years. Two of the last three presidents have signed treaties with NK. Which were broken by NK. We will have to see if history repeats or if we ever get as far as a treaty.

So far the only thing that has been epic is the hyperbole from the trumpets and trump haters both.
32   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (30)   2018 Jun 12, 10:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

A real president would have stuck the pen into KIMFUCK!'s left eye, ripped it out and FUCK!ed the wet socket like a normal guy for the TV cameras.

Talking to a commie makes them think they're human beings.

No, just a fucking commie cunt.

SKULL! FUCK! object, disposable rank, if useful, spooge receptacle.
33   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 10:12pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Downside: things stay the same.

Upside: Nuclear disarming of NK.

Feux Follets says
might succeed—at a terrible price


Price? at the terrible price of things remaining the same as Obama's 8 years in office.
34   Strategist   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 12, 10:16pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

CBOEtrader says
Downside: things stay the same.

Upside: Nuclear disarming of NK.

Feux Follets says
might succeed—at a terrible price


Peace saves us money. Please explain what that terrible price might be, Feux?
35   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Jun 12, 10:34pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

According to Bill Maher, good is bad cause Trump.

^^TDS logic.
36   Feux Follets   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 13, 2:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

Strategist says
Peace saves us money. Please explain what that terrible price might be, Feux?


There is no one on this forum that wants to see something positive come out of this more than myself. The reasons are personal and do not need to be disclosed for the membership to dissect and comment on.

It would be nice if peace saves us money, however the neocon element of the government will find new and exciting ways to increase DoD spending to counter Boogey Men real or imagined wiping out any peace savings.

Back to the question, please read the entire article.

The genie is out of the bottle so to speak and the world could pay a very terrible price trying to stuff it back in.

Potus should have held off, played the stronger hand from a distance instead of rushing into a summit.

With the exception of the looming midterm elections there was no reason not to let North Korea, China and Russia sweat it out and see what concessions they were willing to put up before agreeing to meet.

Calling off the summit for lack of concessions as opposed to Kim insulted someone would have been prudent as well.
37   Feux Follets   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 13, 2:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

mell says
nothing to defend in a historic meeting


Really ? The details might be a good starting point.
38   clambo   ignore (4)   2018 Jun 13, 6:24am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

If Trump succeeds in N. Korea not making threats, the exercise was worth the trip for him. If there are better results later, all the better.

If he can bamboozle Kim into being more complacent what's wrong with that? Of course Kim will want to start contacting Trump often and Trump will have to be "very busy" so as not to be friended to death by the wannabe kook Kim.

Just look at Kim, take the measure of the man; he's got serious issues and he deeply wants to be respected/feared/needed/admired by others.

Trump played psychology on Kim by praising him in public several times. Now Kim will be the pupped in Trump's hands, small as they may be according to Marco Rubio the dimwit.

The naysayers have to keep up the nonsense, the liberal left media is a huge circle jerk, anyone who steps out of line will be attacked.
39   marcus   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 13, 6:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

clambo says
he's got serious issues and he deeply wants to be respected/feared/needed/admired by others.


Wait, who are we talking about here ?




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