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Country's with socialized medicine vs the USA (Personal Income Tax)


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2018 Jun 14, 4:09pm   7,831 views  52 comments

by MisterLefty   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

2009: Comparison is between a single individual and a married couple with two children.

France: 50.1% and 41.7%
UK: 33.5% and 27.1%
Canada: 31.6% and 21.5%

and

The United States of America 29.1% and 11.9%

This is a comparison of taxes paid by a household earning the country's average wage as of 2005. Source is the OECD.

https://allnurses.com/nursing-activism-healthcare/countrys-with-socialized-409396.html

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1   Goran_K   2018 Jun 14, 4:14pm  

I was making this point in the thread where people were talking about the costs of socialized health care. Thanks for the numbers.
2   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 14, 4:17pm  

Goran_K says
I was making this point in the thread where people were talking about the costs of socialized health care. Thanks for the numbers.
Need to enter the new tax scenario in the USA.
3   LeonDurham   2018 Jun 14, 4:49pm  

Well no kidding.

Of course taxes will be higher if you're no longer paying $25K+ to insurance companies, hospitals, Drs. offices, etc.

Not to mention that those other countries offer far more services paid by tax dollars that we have to pay separately for here.
4   RWSGFY   2018 Jun 14, 4:58pm  

LeonDurham says
Not to mention that those other countries offer far more services paid by tax dollars that we have to pay separately for here.


Says who?
5   Strategist   2018 Jun 14, 5:01pm  

LeonDurham says
Well no kidding.

Of course taxes will be higher if you're no longer paying $25K+ to insurance companies, hospitals, Drs. offices, etc.

Not to mention that those other countries offer far more services paid by tax dollars that we have to pay separately for here.


Keep in mind most employees have insurance paid for by the employer. We are clearly better off in the USA. All our other costs like housing, food and transportation are much lower than Europe.
6   LeonDurham   2018 Jun 14, 5:08pm  

Strategist says
Keep in mind most employees have insurance paid for by the employer. We are clearly better off in the USA. All our other costs like housing, food and transportation are much lower than Europe.


No, the company sends the check, but it's your money that is being paid.
7   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 14, 5:17pm  

LeonDurham says
Of course taxes will be higher if you're no longer paying $25K+ to insurance companies, hospitals, Drs. offices, etc.
Except it's not $25k. $5,000 for your health insurance for an average family insured through an employer plus $1,000-$4,000 additional out-of-pocket.

"Workers now pay an average of $1,318 out of pocket before health insurance coverage begins to cover part of their bills, up from $584 a decade ago, according to a new report out from the Kaiser Family Foundation. That’s after paying an average of $89 each month for health insurance premiums." http://time.com/money/4044394/average-health-deductible-premium/

Another way to look at it:

Current average costs for an average family insured by employer:

$5,000 employee contribution for plan plus $1,318 out-of-pocket. You are suggesting that it become the equivalent of $25,000 under socialized medicine is not a great argument for adoption.
8   Strategist   2018 Jun 14, 5:17pm  

LeonDurham says
Strategist says
Keep in mind most employees have insurance paid for by the employer. We are clearly better off in the USA. All our other costs like housing, food and transportation are much lower than Europe.


No, the company sends the check, but it's your money that is being paid.


The stats are based on average earnings. Benefits not deducted from average earnings.
9   LeonDurham   2018 Jun 14, 5:21pm  

MisterLefty says
"Workers now pay an average of $1,318 out of pocket before health insurance coverage begins to cover part of their bills, up from $584 a decade ago, according to a new report out from the Kaiser Family Foundation. That’s after paying an average of $89 each month for health insurance premiums." http://time.com/money/4044394/average-health-deductible-premium/

Another way to look at it:

Current average costs for an average family insured by employer:

$5,000 employee contribution for plan for family plus $1,318 out-of-pocket. You are suggesting that it become the equivalent of $25,000 under socialized medicine is not a great argument for adoption.


lol--are you pretending I haven't shown you why you must include the employer contribution? It's YOUR money.
10   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Jun 14, 5:22pm  

Hassan_Rouhani says
Says who?


Certainly not Alfie.

NHS wouldn't even allow the parents to take him to Italy for free treatment, with the transportation provided by Italian Civil Society Groups.

That's because they blew his parents off 3x. NHS is packed with relatives of Pakistanis visiting for Free Care.
11   Ceffer   2018 Jun 14, 5:30pm  

Who wouldn't want to pay higher taxes for a pitchfork in the chest?
12   Strategist   2018 Jun 14, 5:42pm  

TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy says
NHS is packed with relatives of Pakistanis visiting for Free Care.


Pakistanis have disproportionately high cases of disabilities due to cousin marriages. 70% of Pakistanis are married to their first cousins. 50% of Iraqis and a similar percent of Saudis are married to their first cousins.
Fucking cousin fuckers.
13   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 14, 6:17pm  

LeonDurham says
lol--are you pretending I haven't shown you why you must include the employer contribution? It's YOUR money.
lol because you have made no case for it except your own opinion.
14   Strategist   2018 Jun 14, 6:24pm  

LeonDurham says
lol--are you pretending I haven't shown you why you must include the employer contribution? It's YOUR money.


Same goes for other countries too.
15   LeonDurham   2018 Jun 14, 7:06pm  

MisterLefty says
lol because you have made no case for it except your own opinion.


Yes, I forgot. The law of supply and demand is a pseudo theory.
16   bob2356   2018 Jun 14, 8:46pm  

MisterLefty says
2009: Comparison is between a single individual and a married couple with two children.

France: 50.1% and 41.7%
UK: 33.5% and 27.1%
Canada: 31.6% and 21.5%


What a total fucking joke. A 1 paragraph post on a blog? Nothing else? It's true because I say it's true.

MisterLefty says
$5,000 employee contribution for plan plus $1,318 out-of-pocket. You are suggesting that it become the equivalent of $25,000 under socialized medicine is not a great argument for adoption.


Average employer premium last year was 18,000 according to NCSL. That's money you don't get paid. You contribution isn't the total cost of the plan. plus you kick in on top of that out of pocket.
17   bob2356   2018 Jun 14, 8:52pm  

Strategist says
The stats are based on average earnings. Benefits not deducted from average earnings.


What stats, it's someone's blog that is totally meaningless. No source no methodology, not nothing.
18   bob2356   2018 Jun 14, 9:13pm  

Hassan_Rouhani says
LeonDurham says
Not to mention that those other countries offer far more services paid by tax dollars that we have to pay separately for here.


Says who?


Like schools, fire, police paid out of income taxes not property taxes. I am willing to bet US property taxes didn't get included in taxes. But we don't know since there isn't anything about how the numbers were calculated. Want to tack the average whatever it is property tax (including what renters pay) onto the average earner and see the numbers?

How about $500 a year or free college tuition? Not a benefit?

Here are some real oecd numbers and 11% tax paid is not on the menu or even close. https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/
19   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 3:54am  

bob2356 says
Average employer premium last year was 18,000 according to NCSL. That's money you don't get paid. You contribution isn't the total cost of the plan. plus you kick in on top of that out of pocket.
It is an opinion that the money would be paid to employees if the company no longer paid it.
20   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 3:55am  

LeonDurham says
Yes, I forgot. The law of supply and demand is a pseudo theory.
The way you apply it is nonsensical. And economics is not at all science.
21   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 3:58am  

bob2356 says
What a total fucking joke. A 1 paragraph post on a blog? Nothing else? It's true because I say it's true.
Tax rates in other countries are no secret. But instead of whining, post a link with contrary information.
22   bob2356   2018 Jun 15, 4:45am  

MisterLefty says
It is an opinion that the money would be paid to employees if the company no longer paid it.


That's why it's called compensation package not salary.
23   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 5:00am  

bob2356 says
That's why it's called compensation package not salary.
But now Uncle Sam pays the benefit. Poof!

Uncle Sam: The new single payer plan signed into law by President Sanders provides a boost to both consumers, in the form of an average $5,000 raise, but also to employers, who see a more improved bottom line.
24   LeonDurham   2018 Jun 15, 5:37am  

MisterLefty says
But now Uncle Sam pays the benefit. Poof!

Uncle Sam: The new single payer plan signed into law by President Sanders provides a boost to both consumers, in the form of an average $5,000 raise, but also to employers, who see a more improved bottom line.


Companies no longer send YOUR money to the insurance company so they obviously send it to YOU instead.

When there's a tax cut, do companies keep the money because they no longer have to withhold as much from your check?
25   bob2356   2018 Jun 15, 5:44am  

MisterLefty says
bob2356 says
What a total fucking joke. A 1 paragraph post on a blog? Nothing else? It's true because I say it's true.
Tax rates in other countries are no secret. But instead of whining, post a link with contrary information


I did. Not a very useful one but a hell of a lot better than a couple random numbers posted on someone's blog. , There isn't an accurate study out there. All of these types of studies only exist to advance someone's political agenda. Look who paid for the study and you can know the results without even looking at the study. .

Comparing nominal tax rates instead of effective tax rates is useless. As is comparing totally different levels of benefits You would have to add back in all the missing benefits like health care, college tuition, etc., etc. to be able to compare. Then you would need to account for the total tax burden, not just federal. The US has a very high state and local tax burden that doesn't exist in other countries because a lot of services are federal in other countries not paid for at a local level. That would be a problem because how to you divide property tax by worker? or include property tax for renters who work?

Just comparing nominal federal rates is idiotic.

Since the US is the only country other than North Korea and Eritrea (nice company to keep) that taxes non resident citizens I can tell you from personal experience of filing double tax returns for many years that the TOTAL tax burden in Australia/NZ isn't any higher than the US and is higher in France but not a lot unless you are making a lot (France is big on egalitarian, high earners get killed. also french tax law is very complex and nominal rates don't mean much). That's not including being in the US and having to for health care or 25k a year college tuition if I were stupid enough to send my kids to college in the states.
26   bob2356   2018 Jun 15, 5:46am  

LeonDurham says

Companies no longer send YOUR money to the insurance company so they obviously send it to YOU instead.


They OBVIOUSLY aren't going to give it to you if it's going to an insurance company.
27   NuttBoxer   2018 Jun 15, 10:55am  

MisterLefty says
The United States of America 29.1% and 11.9%


Not sure if the other countries numbers represent total taxes, but this figure for US does not. Guessing this is federal income only.
28   Heraclitusstudent   2018 Jun 15, 11:46am  

MisterLefty says

2009: Comparison is between a single individual and a married couple with two children.

France: 50.1% and 41.7%
UK: 33.5% and 27.1%
Canada: 31.6% and 21.5%

To be fair, these taxes buys you a lot more than healthcare benefits: also free education for your children (or almost free for universities), and a pension for RETIREMENT.
29   Heraclitusstudent   2018 Jun 15, 11:54am  

According to the most recent data available from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), "the average American spent $9,596 on healthcare" in 2012, which was "up significantly from $7,700 in 2007."
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html

So let's see: for a family of Americans with 2 children, that's $38,000. Let's say the median household income is $60K. So that's potentially a tax of 63% IN ADDITION to the taxes you pay.
It doesn't stop here:

"Health care spending per person is expected to surpass $10,000 in 2016 and then march steadily higher to $14,944 in 2023."
30   Heraclitusstudent   2018 Jun 15, 12:00pm  

If you want to compare what other states spend on healthcare, you will lose.
The US GOVERNMENT already spends AS MUCH on healthcare per capita as other developed countries. The only difference is you don't cover all people for that money.
You choose not to cover everyone.
31   rdm   2018 Jun 15, 12:42pm  

MisterLefty says
It is an opinion that the money would be paid to employees if the company no longer paid it.


Without collective bargaining (unions) you are right, but just make sure you include the recent corp. and pass thru entity tax cut going to the workers as opinion also.
32   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Jun 15, 12:52pm  

Heraclitusstudent says
To be fair, these taxes buys you a lot more than healthcare benefits: also free education for your children (or almost free for universities), and a pension for RETIREMENT.


Actually in the UK not really. You have to do unbelievably well and your fate is determined by a test you take around 5-6th Grade I think.
33   bob2356   2018 Jun 15, 2:17pm  

Heraclitusstudent says
The US GOVERNMENT already spends AS MUCH on healthcare per capita as other developed countries.


and US spends almost twice as much per capita as other developed countries and 14% don't even have health care insurance. But hey just post prices in doctors offices and it will be all better.

34   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 3:59pm  

LeonDurham says
Companies no longer send YOUR money to the insurance company so they obviously send it to YOU instead.
If it is your money, than surely the employer will turn it over to you if you ask. Wanna bet on the odds?
35   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 4:11pm  

bob2356 says
Average employer premium last year was 18,000 according to NCSL. That's money you don't get paid. You contribution isn't the total cost of the plan. plus you kick in on top of that out of pocket.
I think you should read your own links. As previously posted, for an average family, employee pays roughly 1/3, employer 2/3. So employer's contribution is $18k-minus employee's contribution, which is around $12k. Why is it that the empty barrels always make the most noise?

The 2016 KFF survey looked at annual average employer contributions to health insurance:

For single plans, employers paid 82% of premiums ($5,306)
For family plans, employers paid 71% of premiums ($12,865)
Employees paid the remaining 18% ($1,129) for single plans and 29% ($5,277) for family plans.

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/premiums-for-employer-sponsored-family-health-coverage-rise-slowly-for-sixth-straight-year-up-3-but-averaging-18764-in-2017/
36   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 4:13pm  

Heraclitusstudent says
"Health care spending per person is expected to surpass $10,000 in 2016 and then march steadily higher to $14,944 in 2023."
To be a bit more honest, and accurate, for those covered by the employer:

The 2016 KFF survey looked at annual average employer contributions to health insurance:

For single plans, employers paid 82% of premiums ($5,306)
For family plans, employers paid 71% of premiums ($12,865)
Employees paid the remaining 18% ($1,129) for single plans and 29% ($5,277) for family plans.

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/premiums-for-employer-sponsored-family-health-coverage-rise-slowly-for-sixth-straight-year-up-3-but-averaging-18764-in-2017/
37   CBOEtrader   2018 Jun 15, 4:22pm  

bob2356 says
Heraclitusstudent says
The US GOVERNMENT already spends AS MUCH on healthcare per capita as other developed countries.


and US spends almost twice as much per capita as other developed countries and 14% don't even have health care insurance. But hey just post prices in doctors offices and it will be all better.



Those numbers are a few years old. Situation is worse now, and spiraling out of control.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-u-s-similar-public-spending-private-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countries
38   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 4:24pm  

bob2356 says
Comparing nominal tax rates instead of effective tax rates is useless.
In France, I'd be paying 17% more income tax, and there seems to be some sort of pesky wealth tax there, too. But it is true that unbiased analyses are rare, France provides broader social services than healthcare, etc. It is possible that taxes will go up if the USA adopted single payer, and that higher income folks would pay more than they do under employer sponsored plans, and out-of-pocket continue to increase, a la Medicare. But even exchange costs under Obamacare are less as a percentage for higher earners.
39   CBOEtrader   2018 Jun 15, 4:25pm  

MisterLefty says
Heraclitusstudent says
"Health care spending per person is expected to surpass $10,000 in 2016 and then march steadily higher to $14,944 in 2023."
To be a bit more honest, and accurate, for those covered by the employer:

The 2016 KFF survey looked at annual average employer contributions to health insurance:

For single plans, employers paid 82% of premiums ($5,306)
For family plans, employers paid 71% of premiums ($12,865)
Employees paid the remaining 18% ($1,129) for single plans and 29% ($5,277) for family plans.

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/premiums-for-employer-sponsored-family-health-coverage-rise-slowly-for-sixth-straight-year-up-3-but-averaging-18764-in-2017/


This is why most gainfully employed people dont realize the extent of the problem. Try pricing out an Obamacare policy without a subsidy. Prices are absurd.
40   MisterLefty   2018 Jun 15, 4:25pm  

CBOEtrader says
This is why most gainfully employed people dont realize the extent of the problem. Try pricing out an Obamacare policy without a subsidy. Prices are absurd.
Indeed and that data is available, too.

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