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"If you want to persuade, appeal to interest not to reason"

By Patrick following x   2018 Jul 29, 9:57am 5,817 views   43 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Supposedly said by Benjamin Franklin, and very true.

Most political argument is mere rationalization for holding positions in one's own perceived self-interest. The rationalizations can get so convoluted and unlikely as to be comical, but plain reason and logic will never persuade. What is needed is to find a common interest you can both get behind.

The globalists who were happily outsourcing jobs to China and importing illegals from Mexico will never forgive Trump for messing with their profits. They will come up with endless rationalizations for their hatred of Trump, from Stormy Daniels to Trump's brief continuation of Obama's policy of separating illegals from their children. There is nothing you can say to change their minds, simply because their profits come above all other considerations, a fact that they can never say in public. In their desperation, they use the media to sow division in the public along every fault line they can find, including race, gender, and religion. They are utterly terrified that the public will unify behind Trump's America-first policies. They do not want unity! They want division, "diversity", and distraction from how they have been harming the country for their own benefit.

So let's give up on them and talk about the rest of America, and our common interests.

Trump has been very good for the US economy. We are all obviously benefitting from the rapid increase in jobs and in the stock market. So a calm offhand mention of how well the economy is doing is probably going to be far more effective at healing division in the country than any overt defense of Trump.

North Korea was a real threat to the US with its nuclear program. So again, a mention of how that tension has just melted away and how it feels safer now could also help with unity. No need to mention Trump at all.

And of course around tax time it might be good to ask people how much their taxes went down.

If you're looking for more ways for the country to heal and unify, poke through this list for some of the great things happening lately and just point them out without mentioning Trump at all: http://www.magapill.com/

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4   HEYYOU   ignore (25)   2018 Jul 29, 4:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It's a pity that people follow their delusional value system & don't understand ciphering.
The whole economic system is based on debt that can't be repaid.
Does anybody hear ever look at the BEA data? They don't have to. They are geniuses in their own mind.

"This ** really pisses me off."

"These aren't my numbers -- they're the government's numbers. They are in fact right out of the BEA's data tables which is the same entity in the government that produced the GDP report Friday morning.

If you believe and tout their numbers as the President has done then you cannot simply make up flat lies about the internals of the data that bear absolutely zero relevance to the truth."

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=233881

Posted this previously.
"There's only one problem: Exactly zero of it was actual economic expansion.
Yes, I said zero. In fact the economy has contracted over the last 10 years."

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=233872
5   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 29, 5:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"If you want to understand, look at economics rather than virtue signaling." Patnet Bloviator.
6   marcus   ignore (7)   2018 Jul 29, 5:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
to Trump's brief continuation of Obama's policy of separating illegals from their children


I see you've gone really deep into this issue (like negative 3 inches). Obama's policy ? Ben Shapiro was way wrong on this one.

Patrick says
In their desperation, they use the media to sow division in the public along every fault line they can find, including race, gender, and religion


It's true that I usually don't favor the republican side. But I would vastly prefer Pence. The truth is that I was shocked by Trumps success in the primaries, and was disgusted that a man so vulgar and dishonest and so obviously appealing to ignorant hate could ever be elected.

Patrick says
They do not want unity! They want division


So you're going to tell me that you can look at Obama and Trump and say that of the two, OBama intentionally causes polarization more than Trump ? I can't even count the times that Trump has acted in ways that seemed motivated by nothing other than a desire to intentionally troll liberals. You yourself theorized often that the good thing about Trump is that he's not politically correct. "IT's so refreshing to hear a guy like Trump say what he really thinks." To the extent that too much political correctness is bad, it was never motivated by a desire to cause polarization. And to some extent, some of the lessor political correctness that has triggered right wingers, only triggered them becasue Sean Hannity or Brietbart told them they should be triggered by it.

Don't get me wrong. When freedom of speech is curtailed, I have a problem. And political correctness has gone to far. The left has run a bit amok.

Patrick says
a mention of how that tension has just melted away and how it feels safer now could also help with unity. No need to mention Trump at all.


MY perception of the NK situation is that tensions were ramped way up by Kim after Trump was elected and that he ultimately acted to kiss NKs ass. The games have temporarily ended, that is the degree to which the global media is being played in a dangerous game. But my guess is that had Clinton won, that entire game would not have been played. Or if it had, it would have ended with a similar result (our kissing their ass), but in a more dignified and behind the scenes way. And either way it's a repeat of a game that's been played several times before.
7   mell   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 29, 6:10pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
So you're going to tell me that you can look at Obama and Trump and say that of the two, OBama intentionally causes polarization more than Trump ?


Absolutely. Trump is not dividing along the fault-lines of race or religion, sure he trolls and fights his haters and critics but it's never racially, religiously or gender/orientation motivated. The people who choose to be eternally offended/divided - the leftoids - haven't even been addressed by Trump. That is not division, division is saying that it's whites against blacks or men against women, or lgbtq+- vs straight cis and Trump has never made any comments in that fashion, Obama has. Trayvon Martin comments were really really bad and divisive, esp. since no facts were known yet when Obama made them.
8   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 29, 7:20pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
The truth is that I was shocked by Trumps success in the primaries, and was disgusted that a man so vulgar and dishonest and so obviously appealing to ignorant hate could ever be elected.


You can thank Obama and Hillary for that. Trump isn't the disease, just the symptom of what's wrong.

Pretty amazing people would pick Trump over Hillary, right? Figured out why yet?

marcus says
The left has run a bit amok.


A "bit"??? Really?

marcus says
And either way it's a repeat of a game that's been played several times before.


But this time, the RED line is solid... not written in crayon like it was with Obama. If crossed, it's Gme Over.

marcus says
MY perception


marcus says
But my guess is


and there lies the real problem...
9   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 30, 1:24am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The biggest bullshit is "Principle"



Most NeverTrumpers were in industries very dependent on illegal labor or outsourcing.
10   Onvacation   ignore (3)   2018 Jul 30, 4:50am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
tell me that you can look at Obama and Trump and say that of the two, OBama intentionally causes polarization more than Trump ?

YES!
11   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 30, 9:35am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The lack of self awareness is quite amusing here.

"Everyone who disagrees with me doesn't listen to reason"...
12   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 30, 9:51am   ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
It's true that I usually don't favor the republican side. But I would vastly prefer Pence. The truth is that I was shocked by Trumps success in the primaries, and was disgusted that a man so vulgar and dishonest and so obviously appealing to ignorant hate could ever be elected.


This is why Trump keeps winning. TDS'ers don't understand why Trump won in the first place.

I didn't realize it until about a year ago (but I'm slow), but I'm surprised there are people who are still confused as to why he is outmaneuvering Democrats so easily.
13   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 30, 10:43am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Why is it that Trump supporters never use charts and data to support their claims. Over a ten year period?

I’m tipping the reason is that it blows their narrative to pieces


We do, but some people like the above poster can’t read or understand them. All they can say is “What? LOL!”
14   curious2   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 30, 12:11pm   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
I would vastly prefer Pence. The truth is that I was shocked by Trumps success in the primaries....


Proof of TDS. There is now also a widespread diagnosis of Trump Anxiety Disorder. Sufferers are in a panic over their own hallucination. Risk factors include believing themselves to be smarter than they are, so they cannot accept having simply been wrong.

Whatever one might think of D vs R, Pence is in almost every way worse than Trump. Pence should not have been elected Governor, let alone VP. Democrats' embrace of Pence shows TDS, and inability to admit error, influence them more than their own interests or those of the country.

If you want a better President, then nominate a better candidate in 2020. Until then, make the best of the President you have. Instead of demonizing the POTUS, Democrats should be campaigning to make better deals than Republicans. TDS prevents that, and results in Republican rule by default.
15   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 30, 4:00pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Either the Democrats give you a good candidate, or you’re forced to settle for a shitty Republican (again). Makes sense, i guess.


Yes it does. In a two party election, you pick the LEAST damaging candidate based on your interest.

The DNC is in for a huge surprise in November.
16   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 30, 4:21pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Trump wins because he doesn't do the "Ameri-Can't" stuff anymore.

Before Trump, the Establishment line was: "You're getting a shittier future, that can't be prevented, so suck it up. Also, you're a racist. Meanwhile, I just transferred back into FINRA at $300k/year after working at Goldman making $600k + $120K Bonus doing outsourcing consulting - things are great for me, so fuck Middle America, racists! I also live in a Gated Community that is 90% White, 5% Jewish and 5% Asian and my kid goes to an exclusive prep school with a similar demographic breakdown, so fuck your kids getting raped by MS-13 Gangsters and/or Somalians in a school that's 175% over planned maximum capacity."
17   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 30, 4:49pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Can you show the data that supports the claims of Trumps accomplishments?


18   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 30, 4:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Oh, Dumpkopfen Trump declaren zie Traden War on Glorious Fourth Reich Unified Europa!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-vicious-cycle-trump-declares-trade-war-on-europe-a-1211449.html

When the Europeans cave in... Vox calls it a "Truce" and suggests Trump gave in out of laziness.
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/25/17614564/trump-eu-trade-deal-juncker-soy-energy

Compare to the fact-heavy Weekly Standard, which shows just how terrified the Germans are of Auto Tariffs (Pay attention, Prime Minister May - the UK has 50% German Vehicle sales, that's some serious leverage)
https://www.weeklystandard.com/irwin-m-stelzer/donald-trumps-meeting-with-jean-claude-juncker-was-a-victory-in-the-trade-war

Propaganda Media.
19   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 30, 5:08pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
This is why Trump keeps winning. TDS'ers don't understand why Trump won in the first place.


This is true.

curious2 says
Pence is in almost every way worse than Trump.


Which makes him an excellent choice for Vice-president, from Trump's perspective. No one wants Pence to be president.
21   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 31, 8:28am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says

Can you show the data that supports the claims of Trumps accomplishments?


What...your browser is missing the Google? Anyone can find the answer to a question with minimal effort these days. What’s more valuable is the question itself.
To which you’ll go, “Wut? Lol”
22   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 31, 8:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says

What...your browser is missing the Google? Anyone can find the answer to question with minimal effort these days. What’s more valuable is the question itself.
To which you’ll go, “Wut? Lol”


lol--the last resort of a poster that cannot defend his posts. "Go google it yourself"
23   HEYYOU   ignore (25)   2018 Jul 31, 8:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

If one has to appeal to one's interest rather than reason, it's time to find someone else to talk with.
Lack of critical thinking is not a virtue.
24   BlueSardine   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 31, 8:48am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I can log in from all devices.
It's not the website. sounds like device/operator error.

Aphroman says
@patrick i tried to log in from my laptop to post some actual data rather than the nonsense from that magapill site, but you won’t let me log in that way
25   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 31, 8:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
lol--the last resort of a poster that cannot defend his posts. "Go google it yourself"


LOL-- Liberals, want everyone else to do their work and research.
26   BlueSardine   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 31, 8:50am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Literally took 7 seconds.
but then, I have 100mbps fiber...

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/media-blackout-trumps-60-point-accomplishment-list-of-american-greatness

LeonDurham says
Quigley says

What...your browser is missing the Google? Anyone can find the answer to question with minimal effort these days. What’s more valuable is the question itself.
To which you’ll go, “Wut? Lol”


lol--the last resort of a poster that cannot defend his posts. "Go google it yourself"
27   BlueSardine   ignore (4)   2018 Jul 31, 8:52am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

These online battles are more about having your opposition scurry around looking up shit, rather than the actual issue.
best way to handle this is to spend 4 seconds coming up with this
https://www.google.com/search?q=Trumps+accomplishments&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS699US699&oq=Trumps+accomplishments&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

then make them go through the gyrations...

MrMagic says
LOL-- Liberals, want everyone else to do their work and research.
29   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 31, 9:00am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
nonsense from that magapill site


Why do you say that site is "nonsense"? Looks quite sensible to me. Tons of facts and links.
30   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 31, 9:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Right on except i dont know my password, so i click on forgot password and it just takes me back to the homepage.


@Aphroman thanks for telling me. "forgot password" works on all the devices I have, but it uses javascript so I could believe that it might not work for you.

Do you see any javascript errors in the browser developer tools console? If you don't know what I mean, don't worry about it.

I'll make a note to make "reset password" be just a normal html page.
31   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 31, 9:41am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Because it’s hyper partisan and obviously purely biased.

As a reasonable person, all i need to be swayed is data.

I’d post the FRED charts but i can’t from my phone

Labor force participation rate, GDP


OK, since you like data, how's this for the LFPR and GDP?


-


Yes, it's all about the data and the truth.

You're Welcome!
32   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 31, 10:30am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says

Why do you say that site is "nonsense"? Looks quite sensible to me. Tons of facts and links.


He’s looking for “alternative facts.”
33   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 31, 11:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
If actual data is “alternative facts” in your book, what are real facts?

Is FRED data inaccurate?


Someone quote my two charts I posted. He doesn't see them because he has me on ignore.
34   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 31, 11:33am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Is FRED data inaccurate?


Answer that question after reviewing those two charts.
35   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 31, 11:47am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
MrMagic says
Aphroman says
Is FRED data inaccurate?


Answer that question after reviewing those two charts.


See, percentages don't tell the true facts, but they SOUND good.

I love when Liberals use percentages to make a point:


CHECKMATE!!!!!!

Close Thread.
36   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Aug 1, 7:20am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
The #TDS is rampant do they even care that Daddy doesn’t use condoms with the skanks?


Nope. Neither should you care (but you should wear condoms and lay off the skanks, kids)
37   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Aug 1, 7:35am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
I look at those and see that the trend line that started with Obama's presidency is still intact,


This is correct. At the point in time it’s hard to see much difference between Obama’s reign and Trump’s Presidency on those trends. The most accurate thing to say would be that Trump’s policies continue to boost the economy and improve GDP while lowering unemployment. It will be a few years before we can truly analyze the economic effects of Trump. All we can tell right now is that the economy is improving.

You can’t analyze results that haven’t yet happened!
38   Automan Empire   ignore (2)   2018 Aug 1, 2:14pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MrMagic says

Good thing Trump was able to turn that trend line around with NO QE, NO ZIRP and NO stimulus


Trump didn't begin his term in the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression either. Like much else in his life, Trump got to start on third and is strutting like he hit a home run.
39   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Aug 1, 2:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Automan Empire says
MrMagic says

Good thing Trump was able to turn that trend line around with NO QE, NO ZIRP and NO stimulus


Trump didn't begin his term in the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression either. Like much else in his life, Trump got to start on third and is strutting like he hit a home run.


So, why did many of Obama's metrics tail off the last two years of his Presidency? What did he need, a few more DECADES to turn it around?

Here's another hint, the recession hit two years AFTER the Democrats took the majority in Congress in 2006.

Aren't facts amazing..
40   TrumpingTits   ignore (1)   2018 Aug 1, 8:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Which why the Libtards and their 'blue wave' are going DOWN: They are doing the exact opposite when they piss all over those whom they know they need votes from.

Bat
Shit
Crazy
41   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Aug 1, 8:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
and his supporters claim that Obama destroyed the economy


quote?
42   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Aug 1, 8:36pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says


Nice chart, check this one out too, amazing what adding another $10 Trillion of debt can do to help GDP:




Oh, also forgot this one, just another $4 Trillion of printed money. Heck of a trend line. Check out the hook down right at the end? What's going on there, Trump is hurting Obama's trend.



Aphroman says
and his supporters claim that Obama destroyed the economy and that Trump saved it.


Yep, that's exactly what Trump is doing now.

Speaking of destroyed, how's your 401K and IRA doing the past year and a half. Good thing Trump's not following Obama's trend line on that one either...



Aphroman says
I look at those and see that the trend line that started with Obama's presidency is still intact, which is why Reasonable People such as myself find it very odd that all of a sudden, certain people want to give Trump credit for the same thing that happened throughout Obama's presidency, and the same people claimed that Obama was destroying the economy.


Remember, FRED charts don't lie. It's always important to tell the truth.
43   WookieMan   ignore (0)   2018 Aug 3, 6:23am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Why does everyone give so much credit to the impact a president can make on the economy? Outside of executive orders, which can be challenged in court as we've seen with the supposed Muslim ban, how does the president ACTUALLY impact the economy? And I'm not saying he has zero impact, but people get chapped asses over my president versus your president.

The fact is the economy kind of just does what it does. People like/want money and things and will figure out or do whatever they can to get it. Outside of foreign affairs with the potential to start a war, the President is 3rd on my list in the whole checks and balances concept. Any major change that can impact everyday Americans is coming from Congress 9 out of 10 times. You should be way more concerned with your congress critter in your district and then your senators on the federal level. Technically the guys doing the same thing at the state level have WAY more impact on your day to day.

For example, if IL ever implemented a property tax freeze, which would need to be done by state government, I could literally save close to 6 figures over 30 years. Factor in if I reinvest the savings and you get the point, I think. Guess who I have more influence over? My state rep and senators. My state rep in my district is literally at my kids soccer game and I can sit there and have a chat with him. I'll dox myself a bit, but I'm not getting a meeting with Randy Hultgren (my federal rep) unless I'm worth 7 figures (I'm close, but have plenty of time).

The recent tax plan barely moved the needle for 99% of the population, which congress passed and then the president signed. Anyone claiming they're going to get massive savings (especially here) is likely lying through their teeth. They'd be FAR better off bitching and getting involved in their state politics and to some extent municipal level. They could end up saving way more (if you're into cuts) Again, outside of war, not sure why people put so much stock into the president and correlate it with the economy. Hell, the CEO of Apple probably has more control over the economy then the president does.

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