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203   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 15, 6:15pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
The topic is Trump lies.
Herdingcats says
Did I say I saw a lie in the practice of hiring H2B visa holders?


Lol, the change your stance as needed in a discussion strategy? Dont get offended when no one knows what you are trying to say.

Herdingcats says
I said the practice shows he doesn't want to MAGA.


Trump never said he wanted to put PC limitations on hiring practices. Legal immigration is A-ok everywhere and by everyone. If you think otherwise, then you've been lied to.
204   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 15, 6:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Legal immigration is A-ok everywhere and by everyone
it's not ok to me or clambo. It takes jobs from Americans what is ok about that?
205   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 15, 6:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
CBOEtrader says
Legal immigration is A-ok everywhere and by everyone
it's not ok to me or clambo. It takes jobs from Americans what is ok about that?


You have the right to feel that way. Its simply not Trump's stance, nor most of his supporters.

They want to limit illegal immigration first, worrying about legal H2B's in regards to trump has only been mentioned by those attempting to slander trump.
206   Call It Crazy   ignore (5)   2018 Sep 15, 7:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
those attempting to slander trump.

an overly dramatic characterization.

How exactly is it even possible to "slander Trump?" LOL here some standard defenses to such ludicrous claims of "scandal." You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.

Fair Comment on a Matter of Public Interest

A defense similar to opinion is fair comment on a matter of public interest. If the mayor of a town is involved in a corruption scandal, expressing the opinion that you believe the allegations are true is not likely to support a cause of action for defamation.

Lack of Damages

A defendant may also attempt to illustrate that the plaintiff had a poor reputation in the community, in order to diminish any claim for damages resulting from the defamatory statements.

Public Figures

Under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, as set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1964 Case, New York Times v Sullivan, in which a public figure attempts to bring an action for defamation, the public figure must prove an additional element: that the statement was made with "actual malice".

In translation, that means that the person making the statement knew the statement to be false, or issued the statement with reckless disregard as to its truth. For example, Ariel Sharon sued Time Magazine over allegations of his conduct relating to the massacres at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Although the jury concluded that the Time story included false allegations, they found that Time had not acted with "actual malice" and did not award any damages.

The concept of the "public figure" is broader than celebrities and politicians. A person can become an "involuntary public figure" as the result of publicity, even though that person did not want or invite the public attention. For example, people accused of high profile crimes may be unable to pursue actions for defamation even after their innocence is established, on the basis that the notoriety associated with the case and the accusations against them turned them into involuntary public figures.

A person can also become a "limited public figure" by engaging in actions which generate publicity within a narrow area of interest. For example, a woman named Terry Rakolta was offended by the Fox Television show, Married With Children, and wrote letters to the show's advertisers to try to get them to stop their support for the show. As a result of her actions, Ms. Rakolta became the target of jokes in a wide variety of settings. As these jokes remained within the confines of her public conduct, typically making fun of her as being prudish or censorious, they were protected by Ms. Rakolta's status as a "limited public figure".


Our president is not even on our side. No slander to saying that either.

And we are not socialists, you are traitors. In order to discuss something there has to be some level of mutual respect involved, which there isn't. So WTF? If somebody cracks you upside your head you get no sympathy from me.
207   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 15, 8:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Call It Crazy says
an overly dramatic characterization.


Perhaps you haven't noticed the MSM 98% anti trump coverage its almost as if gasp those billionaires who control our media dont want trump in office.

Call It Crazy says
And we are not socialists, you are traitors. In order to discuss something there has to be some level of mutual respect involved, which there isn't. So WTF? If somebody cracks you upside your head you get no sympathy from me.


This reads completely unhindged. Is there a point in these crazy words?
208   marcus   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 15, 8:39pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Perhaps you haven't noticed the MSM 98% anti trump coverage its almost as if gasp those billionaires who control our media dont want trump in office


Or almost as if we have a deranged and seriously unfit for the office POTUS. What, the media is supposed to say, "don't worry be happy, nothing to see here, folks, move along. Just give him a chance. There's nothing he could possibly do that deserves criticism, unless you're just part of the establishment that is opposed to his amazing effectiveness that looks like and seems like gross incompetence only if you are his political enemy."
209   Patrick   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 15, 9:01pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Were you referring to another user of the site, calling them a liar? Kinda looks that way.
210   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 15, 9:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
There's nothing he could possibly do that deserves criticism,


You are missing the point. 98% criticism means nothing is worth praise. Do you believe nothing trump has done is worthy of praise? Or perhaps the MSM is lying to you? It's one or the other
211   marcus   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 15, 9:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It's closer to 90%. But I feel like the Preisdent is getting 30 times the stories other Presidents becasue of his crazy tweets. Sadly it's what he likes. When he's taking a dump and reading his phone he wants to read a few stories about himself. You think he cares if they are negative ? It's call NPD.

So on a day that Obama would have gotten no coverage if he were President now, Trump gets 50 stories about his crazy tweets, 49 of which are deemed negative.

So ? Whose fault is that ?
212   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 6:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
But I feel like the Preisdent is getting 30 times the stories other Presidents becasue of his crazy tweets.


Sure blame MSM decisions on Trump, lol. The reality is the oligarchs cant stand to lose control of the narrative. That is what Trump represents to them. Loss of control.
213   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 6:53am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Lol. That comment was not personal. So I can't say Trump supporters lie as much if not more than Trump??? How is that personal???
Patrick says
Were you referring to another user of the site, calling them a liar? Kinda looks that way.


To be honest, @patrick , I agree. It was a veiled personal comment. Unfortunately the moderation of this site is biased, so if a Trump supporter makes a veiled personal attack it is explained away as not being personal yet if a person who doesn't support Trump makes the same veiled comment it is marked personal.

So why the two standards?

This is what happens when the moderation of a site is choosen from one side of the aisle but not the other, shit becomes biased. Be it Twitter, Facebook, or pat.net it is the same for any site.

I can't give examples of who has explained away veiled personal attacks as not personal because then my comment would be personal about a specific moderator and not just about the moderation of the site
214   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 7:59am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

This site is full of people calling users liars or idiots or retarded under the veil of "leftists" or "liberals". The fact that Patrick can't see that or the bias of the moderators is a large blind spot.
215   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 16, 9:01am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Call It Crazy says
you are traitors. In order to discuss something there has to be some level of mutual respect involved,

Yep.
216   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 9:14am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
CBOEtrader says
Legal immigration is A-ok everywhere and by everyone
it's not ok to me or clambo. It takes jobs from Americans what is ok about that?


That's totally fine. Doesn't make you a bad person. The wrongthink wrt topics like immigration was introduced by leftoids, enemies of civil discourse and freedom of speech and they are majorly responsible for the moralization of politics these days. The right has such few moralizing spots left such as it is not morally good to take drugs but those are few and far between.
217   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 9:24am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says

That's totally fine. Doesn't make you a bad person. The wrongthink wrt topics like immigration was introduced by leftoids, enemies of civil discourse and freedom of speech and they are majorly responsible for the moralization of politics these days. The right has such few moralizing spots left such as it is not morally good to take drugs but those are few and far between.


I'm fine with limiting immigration, but let's be honest about the effects of it. Legal immigration adds consumers as well as employees. Immigrants create jobs as they take them.

And who is a leftoid exactly? Can you name some leftoid candidates?
218   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 9:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says

That's totally fine. Doesn't make you a bad person. The wrongthink wrt topics like immigration was introduced by leftoids, enemies of civil discourse and freedom of speech and they are majorly responsible for the moralization of politics these days. The right has such few moralizing spots left such as it is not morally good to take drugs but those are few and far between.


I'm fine with limiting immigration, but let's be honest about the effects of it. Legal immigration adds consumers as well as employees. Immigrants create jobs as they take them.

And who is a leftoid exactly? Can you name some leftoid candidates?


Most people on the left unfortunately today. If herdingcats would mention that they are against immigration the immediate response is why are you a Nazi or why do you hate brown people / Mexicans etc. etc. And the Dems have been supporting this disastrous way of non-discourse.
219   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 9:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

By the way this trend is also present in Europe, everywhere where people have started mobilizing against mass immigration the globalist-leftist answer is the same: we must fight against Nazis! Occams razor clearly dictates that the chance that the whole western world suddenly has a mass neurosis Nazi uprising are nil. Which makes this fight against imaginary nazis even more absurd.
220   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 9:52am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says

Most people on the left unfortunately today


Can you give an example? Which politicians?

But, you have to admit, that being against legal immigration is a historically Anti-American position. America was founded as the Melting Pot and Land of Opportunity.
221   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 10:03am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says

Most people on the left unfortunately today


Can you give an example? Which politicians?

But, you have to admit, that being against legal immigration is a historically Anti-American position. America was founded as the Melting Pot and Land of Opportunity.


Sure if you're against any legal immigration. The US always had legal immigration but with a quota. But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.
222   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 10:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
Sure if you're against any legal immigration. The US always had legal immigration but with a quota. But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.


We still do. Is there someone on the left that is advocating we eliminate the quotas? Who?
223   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 10:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says
Sure if you're against any legal immigration. The US always had legal immigration but with a quota. But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.


We still do. Is there someone on the left that is advocating we eliminate the quotas? Who?

The number are debated and by allowing unhinged illegal immigration.
224   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 10:18am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
The number are debated and by allowing unhinged illegal immigration.


So, I take it there is actually NOBODY that is advocating for unlimited legal immigration as you earlier stated. Were you being purposely disingenuous?

Like I've said many times, its literally impossible to have a rational discussion with the right and Trump supporters.
225   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 10:35am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says
The number are debated and by allowing unhinged illegal immigration.


So, I take it there is actually NOBODY that is advocating for unlimited legal immigration as you earlier stated. Were you being purposely disingenuous?

Like I've said many times, its literally impossible to have a rational discussion with the right and Trump supporters.


That's exactly what the Dems are doing now. Abolish ICE, dont detain kids but also don't separate families with kids so don't detain anyone = unhinged illegal immigration.
226   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 10:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says

That's exactly what the Dems are doing now. Abolish ICE, dont detain kids but also don't separate families with kids so don't detain anyone = unhinged illegal immigration.


Abolish ICE doesn't mean get rid of border security. We had border security for hundreds of years without ICE.

Again--we were talking about legal immigration though. Why do you feel the need to change the subject? Who are all the people who support unlimited legal immigration? You said that pretty much everyone on the left does. Can you not name one person?
227   ThreeBays   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 10:52am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
All political violence in the US is leftists attacking Trump supporters. The opposite does not happen at all.


This is supposed to make it look like only the left have a violent ideology. It isn't, it is just that only the left has some people that feel violated at this time.

If the left voted a POTUS that was very strongly despised by the right, you would likely see political violence on the other side instead.
228   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 16, 1:12pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
That's exactly what the Dems are doing now. Abolish ICE, dont detain kids but also don't separate families with kids so don't detain anyone = unhinged illegal immigration.


Libbies forget the reason "Family" Separation was enacted.

Every child trafficker knows they pretend to be dad/mom/uncle/aunt to the slave they want to smuggle. By separating them, you give the victim an opportunity to speak out, which they often won't do in the presence of their trafficker, especially if they need a translator. Usually their traffickers and their victims carry no ID, or have fake IDs, and sometimes "real fakes", where their ID is on real paper with real stamps/watermarks but was bribed from a corrupt official. You know, something that never happens in third world countries.

That's the reason this policy was introduced in the first place.
229   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 1:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says

That's exactly what the Dems are doing now. Abolish ICE, dont detain kids but also don't separate families with kids so don't detain anyone = unhinged illegal immigration.


Abolish ICE doesn't mean get rid of border security. We had border security for hundreds of years without ICE.

Again--we were talking about legal immigration though. Why do you feel the need to change the subject? Who are all the people who support unlimited legal immigration? You said that pretty much everyone on the left does. Can you not name one person?


I said unhinged illegal immigration. Wrt legal immigration the left wants to take in far more than the current administration. Same same.
230   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 2:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says

I said unhinged illegal immigration. Wrt legal immigration the left wants to take in far more than the current administration. Same same.


Nope. You said this:

mell says
Most people on the left unfortunately today. If herdingcats would mention that they are against immigration the immediate response is why are you a Nazi or why do you hate brown people / Mexicans etc. etc. And the Dems have been supporting this disastrous way of non-discourse.


and this:

mell says
Sure if you're against any legal immigration. The US always had legal immigration but with a quota. But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.


You were clearly talking about legal immigration, but then changed the subject when I asked you to back up your claims.
231   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 2:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
mell says

I said unhinged illegal immigration. Wrt legal immigration the left wants to take in far more than the current administration. Same same.


Nope. You said this:

mell says
Most people on the left unfortunately today. If herdingcats would mention that they are against immigration the immediate response is why are you a Nazi or why do you hate brown people / Mexicans etc. etc. And the Dems have been supporting this disastrous way of non-discourse.


and this:

mell says
Sure if you're against any legal immigration. The US always had legal immigration but with a quota. But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.


...


Nope. Everything has been answered.
232   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 2:47pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
Nope. Everything has been answered.


lol--so who are all the "leftoids" that are pushing for unlimited legal immigration? Did I miss that answer?
233   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 2:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
If herdingcats would mention that they are against immigration


Did you notice the repeated use of the word unskilled? H2B?

On one hand Trump argues that illegals are taking our unskilled labor jobs and on the other hand Trump is giving unskilled labor jobs to foreigners, you don't see the irony in that?


I'm not against immigration. I agree with what you say here

mell says
But sometimes you may have too many immigrants and then it may be prudent to halt most immigration for a while before resuming it.
234   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 3:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
On one hand Trump argues that illegals are taking our unskilled labor jobs and on the other hand Trump is giving unskilled labor jobs to foreigners, you don't see the irony in that?


No. Legal immigrants are documented and paid similarly to americans for the same job. Illegals are paid a fraction under the table.

Legal immigration quotas can be changed. Wothout changing the rules it would be both ineffectual and possible unethical for Trump to tell hiring managers to limit their options because of politics.

Trumps biggest beef w illegal immigration has been the drug and human trafficking that goes w it.
235   marcus   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 16, 3:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Sure blame MSM decisions on Trump, lol.


You deny his lies. You deny his crazy tweets. Or that they trigger the media. Wow, you really are pretty damn deep in the Trump Cuck bubble.
236   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 3:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
No. Legal immigrants are documented and paid similarly to americans for the same job


Come on now. You think H1Bs are paid the same as citizens? Really?
237   Aphroman   ignore (7)   2018 Sep 16, 5:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
This site is full of people calling users liars or idiots or retarded under the veil of "leftists" or "liberals". The fact that Patrick can't see that or the bias of the moderators is a large blind spot.


watching different forums attempt censorship and moderation in different ways over the past twenty years, this is one of the most bizarre. Liberal, Free Speech site with five hard right republican moderators to police the other nine people that post here. I'm miffed at what exactly the expectations were from such bizarre actions.
238   curious2   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 5:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The video of the El Cajon incident made me wonder about the back story.

The event was a protest against police following the fatal police shooting of Alfred Olango, 38. He had arrived as a child refugee from Uganda, and then committed a series of gun and drug crimes for which ICE had been trying to repatriate him for more than a decade. He had a history of panhandling and mentally ill behavior, including wandering into traffic. Following the death of a childhood friend, Olango began behaving more erratically (SSRIs or other psychotropic drugs?). His sister called police because he was wandering into traffic. He committed, apparently, suicide by cop: he pretended to point a gun at police, and refused to drop it, but the pretend gun turned out to be a vape pipe. His family will likely inherit any proceeds if El Cajon pays a judgment or settlement.

BTW, the violence at the protest extended beyond the attack on the Trump supporter shown in the video. "ECM reporter Rebecca Williamson was filming the event when she was knocked down and had her camera bag stolen." No word on what she might have been wearing.
239   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Sep 16, 5:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
CBOEtrader says
No. Legal immigrants are documented and paid similarly to americans for the same job


Come on now. You think H1Bs are paid the same as citizens? Really?


Not H1Bs, but starting from the green card on. H1Bs usually have a 5%-25% discount.
240   Aphroman   ignore (7)   2018 Sep 16, 5:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Herdingcats says
On one hand Trump argues that illegals are taking our unskilled labor jobs and on the other hand Trump is giving unskilled labor jobs to foreigners, you don't see the irony in that?


No. Legal immigrants are documented and paid similarly to americans for the same job. Illegals are paid a fraction under the table.

Legal immigration quotas can be changed. Wothout changing the rules it would be both ineffectual and possible unethical for Trump to tell hiring managers to limit their options because of politics.

Trumps biggest beef w illegal immigration has been the drug and human trafficking that goes w it.


What does illegal immigration have to do with drugs?

Are you implying that less illegal immigration would somehow have any effect on the supply a/o demand for drugs?

Because that's absurd
241   curious2   ignore (0)   2018 Sep 16, 5:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
H1Bs usually have a 5%-25% discount.


I think it's more than that. Remember a substantial portion of employment costs goes to "benefits," including mandatory medical insurance. If an employer outsources to a staffing firm or otherwise avoids paying "benefits," that can become a substantial discount. For example, when Scott Walker attacked the Wisconsin teachers' union, reportedly half the money that schools were paying was getting diverted to mandatory "benefits" including medical insurance over $20k/year per teacher.
242   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Sep 16, 5:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

H1_bs like I are of amazing qualities!!! Educated good, we are. Also can I has unemploayeamint inscuranses?

http://discuss.ilw.com/forum/immigration-discussion/18269-unemployment-insurance-vs-h-1b

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