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The best case against Trump

By CBOEtrader following x   2018 Oct 7, 9:58am 1,400 views   228 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


I want to hear why a clear thinking adult would be anti-Trump.

What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument? If you think he's a liar, please post the video. Or if you disagree with legislation he pioneered or executive orders, please post a link and reasoning.

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189   LastMan   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 5:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
Wall Street is the ultimate judge on the economy and economic policies. Wall Street has concluded "increasing spending while cutting taxes" will benefit the economy at this point in time.


At this point in time. You hit the nail on the head with that part, that Wall Street is short term in its thinking. What will boost profits and thus commissions now. Most politicians, including Trump, are the same in their short term thinking. They push ahead with whatever their agenda is and put it on the back of the national debt.

I'm a long term thinker and expect the same. Sometimes I wonder if all the hyper-partisanship is meant to distract from financial long term failings.
190   CBOEtrader   ignore (2)   2018 Oct 10, 5:27pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
one person briefed on the exchange


Sounds legit af
191   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 10, 5:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Sounds legit af



That's modern journalism's version of "Well backed sources". Jesus, it's not even somebody claimed to hear it, it's somebody was told by somebody who allegedly heard it.
192   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 5:33pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
USMCA: Trudeau Surrenders.
https://patrick.net/post/1319249/2018-10-01-markets-up-bigly-as-canada-caves-ushers-in-usmca

Of course he did. Liberals lost the past 4 of 5 provincial elections, including their old Stronghold of Quebec and even Ottawa. Companies were already laying off thousands in anticipation of no deal.


lol--the stock market goes up 200 pts if the Bears win on Sunday. That's your evidence that it was a good deal? 3.6% instead of 3.2% of the Canadian market? Not even considering that the Canadian government will simply subsidize their farmers like the US does so they are competitive.
193   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 5:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Sounds legit af
TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
That's modern journalism's version of "Well backed sources". Jesus, it's not even somebody claimed to hear it, it's somebody was told by somebody who allegedly heard it.


Oh Crap. How did I forget?? Unnamed sources are only believable when they say good things about Trump!!
194   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 10, 5:47pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
lol--the stock market goes up 200 pts if the Bears win on Sunday. That's your evidence that it was a good deal? 3.6% instead of 3.2% of the Canadian market? Not even considering that the Canadian government will simply subsidize their farmers like the US does so they are competitive.


Tell me what changes Obama made to NAFTA? Did he increase the minimum number of $15+/hr workers? Increase the percentage of Parts in Autos to be considered NAFTA?

Oh yeah, nothing. Because Obama and the Democrats are militant outsourcers Obama didn't even try.

And of course, the rise in stocks was the consensus:

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/stock-futures-stocks-nafta-ge-tesla/
195   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 10, 5:50pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Oh Crap. How did I forget?? Unnamed sources are only believable when they say good things about Trump!!


Not long ago, a Journo who said to their Editor : "I heard it from a guy who says he heard it from another guy" would have been laughed out of the office. But if it's Anti-Trump, it's good to go!

"Accountability Journalism"
196   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 10, 6:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LastMan says
Strategist says
Wall Street is the ultimate judge on the economy and economic policies. Wall Street has concluded "increasing spending while cutting taxes" will benefit the economy at this point in time.


At this point in time. You hit the nail on the head with that part, that Wall Street is short term in its thinking. What will boost profits and thus commissions now. Most politicians, including Trump, are the same in their short term thinking. They push ahead with whatever their agenda is and put it on the back of the national debt.

I'm a long term thinker and expect the same. Sometimes I wonder if all the hyper-partisanship is meant to distract from financial long term failings.


US corporations are very short term oriented. I believe Trump is too. He is pushing for too much growth all at the same time, when businesses can't even find workers anymore.
I think he should go easy for a bit, and save his Aces for when a downturn materializes.
Nevertheless, I would pick Trump over Obama anytime.
197   LastMan   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 6:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
Nevertheless, I would pick Trump over Obama anytime.


That was not the goal of this thread, to pick between Trump and whoever.

CBOEtrader says
What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?
198   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 10, 6:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LastMan says
CBOEtrader says
What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?


His support for ugly dirty coal.
Another one bites the dust. So sad.

https://www.energycentral.com/c/gn/chapter-11-us-coal-company
One of the oldest coal companies in the U.S. filed for bankruptcy protection to deal with it's $1.4 billion debt amid declining demand for fuel. Westmoreland Coal Co. began in 1854 in Pennsylvania and operates in Montana
199   Aphroman   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 10, 6:47pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
LeonDurham says
Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?


I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.


What did he deceive you about? In 2012
200   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 10, 7:14pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Strategist says
LeonDurham says
Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?


I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.


What did he deceive you about? In 2012


1. Economy. Too socialistic. He could not inspire enough confidence among businesses, which was needed to get full recovery for the economy.
2. North Korea. He was a total disaster. They gained nuclear weapons.I was so disgusted.
3. Iran. He kicked the can down the street. Such a wimp.
4. Terrorism. He did not prevent the genocide of Yazidis. Very shameful.
5. He was too nice to be a tough President. "Nice guys finish last"
---------
The reasons why I did not vote for him in 2008 all came true. Yet I voted for him in 2016. I'm such a sucker.
201   dr6B   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 10, 7:23pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?

Deficit increase due to tax cuts without corresponding spending cuts - acts like a typical boomer needing instant gratification paid for by YUUGE debt.
202   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 7:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Tell me what changes Obama made to NAFTA?


More whataboutism from the King. Obama sucked on trade--no doubt. He was way too eager to work with Republicans and do their dirty work.
203   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 10, 7:59pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Not long ago, a Journo who said to their Editor : "I heard it from a guy who says he heard it from another guy" would have been laughed out of the office. But if it's Anti-Trump, it's good to go!

"Accountability Journalism"


And if the unnamed source says there is no Trump/Russia collusion, then TwoScoops and all the other Trumpcucks eat it up no questions asked!
204   PrivilegedtobeWhite   ignore (1)   2018 Oct 10, 8:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
OK, read it.
No you didn't
205   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 10, 9:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
More whataboutism from the King. Obama sucked on trade--no doubt. He was way too eager to work with Republicans and do their dirty work.


Funny, I didn't see that Trump needed Senate permission to start renegotiating NAFTA.

Here's Obama on TPP:


There's been so much winning I forgot that Trump buried the Neoliberal/Neocon favorite Trade Agreement, the one that makes Americans compete with enslaved Laotians. Whose tough labor protections include a $1/day minimum wage - which was the absolute poverty line, 30 years ago. Nobody in the world could make that and not eventually starve to death.
206   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 10, 9:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

BUT Wait, there's MORE:

Obama promises to "Immediately" call the President of Mexico and the PM of Canada to renegotiate NAFTA campaigning in 2008. It never happened:


So Obama started his Presidency proclaiming he'd renegotiate NAFTA, ended his Presidency pushing TPP, the greatest Corporate Giveaway and Outsourcing Regime that would have created unelected, unaccountable Courts of Corporate Lawyers to nullify US Laws, down to the local level to the point it could penalize a small town that wanted to limit store hours after midnight to stop drinking/crime in the parking lot.

Again, the President negotiates and THEN the Congress votes. Obama had a Dem Congress anyway in 2009-2010, but he wouldn't have needed one to start renegotiating So the "But Republican Congress" is doubly inapplicable.
207   Aphroman   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 11, 12:54am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
Aphroman says
Strategist says
LeonDurham says
Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?


I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.


What did he deceive you about? In 2012


1. Economy. Too socialistic. He could not inspire enough confidence among businesses, which was needed to get full recovery for the economy.
2. North Korea. He was a total disaster. They gained nuclear weapons.I was so disgusted.
3. Iran. He kicked the can down the street. Such a wimp.
4. Terrorism. He did not prevent the genocide of Yazidis. Very shameful.
5. He was too nice to be a tough President. "Nice guys finish last"
---------
The reasons why I did not vote for him in 2008 all came true. Y...


You said it, not me

How was Obama too socialistic?
208   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 7:55am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
How was Obama too socialistic?


The first thing Obama did was to screw the GM bondholders in favor of the employees. You can't do that and inspire confidence in businesses. Trump made tax changes and just look at the boom that followed.
209   Aphroman   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 11, 8:03am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
Aphroman says
How was Obama too socialistic?


The first thing Obama did was to screw the GM bondholders in favor of the employees. You can't do that and inspire confidence in businesses. Trump made tax changes and just look at the boom that followed.


You said after the 2012 election though
210   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 8:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
Strategist says
Aphroman says
How was Obama too socialistic?


The first thing Obama did was to screw the GM bondholders in favor of the employees. You can't do that and inspire confidence in businesses. Trump made tax changes and just look at the boom that followed.


You said after the 2012 election though


Obama failed to inspire confidence due to his socialistic leanings, which is why we had a stagnating economy instead of a full recovery. A full recovery quickly follows a recession, but not when he was in charge.
211   Aphroman   ignore (6)   2018 Oct 11, 8:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
LeonDurham says
Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?


I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.


What did you mean here though?
212   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 4:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

PrivilegedtobeWhite says
LeonDurham says
OK, read it.
No you didn't


Yep, sure did. So, how does it relate to me exactly?
213   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 4:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Again, the President negotiates and THEN the Congress votes. Obama had a Dem Congress anyway in 2009-2010, but he wouldn't have needed one to start renegotiating So the "But Republican Congress" is doubly inapplicable.


What the hell are you talking about? I said Obama sucked on trade. And that he worked way too much with Republicans to advance their free trade agenda. You're agreeing with me but pretending to disagree.
214   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 11, 4:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
What the hell are you talking about? I said Obama sucked on trade. And that he worked way too much with Republicans to advance their free trade agenda. You're agreeing with me but pretending to disagree.



Obama promised to renegotiate NAFTA.

Promises Made, Promises Broken.

Trade is one of my top 3 issues, I can never trust the Democrats again until I see America First trade deals being made and/or voted in by them.
215   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 5:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Obama promised to renegotiate NAFTA.

Promises Made, Promises Broken.

Trade is one of my top 3 issues, I can never trust the Democrats again until I see America First trade deals being made and/or voted in by them.


You should have voted for Bernie like I did.
216   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 5:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says


Obama promised to renegotiate NAFTA.

Promises Made, Promises Broken.


Trump promised to get tough on Wall St. and Big Banks.

Promises Made. Promises Broken.

Reforming Wall St./Big Banks is one of my top 3 issues. I will never vote for Republicans again. period.
217   LastMan   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 6:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Trump promised to get tough on Wall St. and Big Banks.


You don't consider big tax breaks getting tough on banks?

https://www.vox.com/business-and-finance/2018/8/12/17680748/tax-cuts-big-banks-jpmorgan
218   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 6:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Trump promised to get tough on Wall St. and Big Banks.


The big banks already face tough regulation. So tough, that it discourages them from making mortgage loans that don't conform to Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac rules. They need to ease off on the banks as it's causing more harm.
219   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 6:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
The big banks already face tough regulation.


lol--please tell me you're joking
220   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 7:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Strategist says
The big banks already face tough regulation.


lol--please tell me you're joking


The Obama administration placed tough regulations on the banks after the government was forced to bail them out during the 2008 housing collapse.
Are you saying Obama did nothing to control banks after bailing them out? If so, that would be sheer incompetence on the part of Obama, won't it?
221   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 7:31pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
The Obama administration placed tough regulations on the banks after the government was forced to bail them out during the 2008 housing collapse.
Are you saying Obama did nothing to control banks after bailing them out? If so, that would be sheer incompetence on the part of Obama, won't it?


Actually, I'm saying Trump signed the law that reversed the Obama regulations. You didn't know this?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-dodd-frank/trump-signs-bill-easing-u-s-bank-rules-into-law-idUSKCN1IP2WX
222   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 7:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says

Actually, I'm saying Trump signed the law that reversed the Obama regulations. You didn't know this?


Needs to ease some more. It's still suffocating housing.
223   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 7:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says


Needs to ease some more. It's still suffocating housing.


Just curious--which regulation specifically do you think is suffocating housing?
224   Strategist   ignore (3)   2018 Oct 11, 7:51pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Strategist says


Needs to ease some more. It's still suffocating housing.


Just curious--which regulation specifically do you think is suffocating housing?


You don't need to know every single law or regulation in detail. That's for nerds and lawyers. I look at results, and what I see is banks arenot lending for housing like they used to, or even close. There are hardly any portfolio loans available today that gave a range of options to potential borrowers for housing loans that were available 20 to 30 years ago.
If more people are able to borrow for homes, more homes would be built, resulting in softer home prices.
225   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 11, 7:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says

You don't need to know every single law or regulation in detail.


If you're going to say regulations are suffocating the housing market, I would think you could at least name 1 regulation.

Strategist says
and what I see is banks arenot lending for housing like they used to, or even close. There are hardly any portfolio loans available today that gave a range of options to potential borrowers for housing loans that were available 20 to 30 years ago.
If more people are able to borrow for homes, more homes would be built, resulting in softer home prices.


Well, I see more types of loans available now than ever before. There is absolutely more choices now than 20-30 years ago.
226   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Oct 11, 9:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
Trump promised to get tough on Wall St. and Big Banks.


If you mean Dodd-Frank, that was a Pastiche of Reform that simply sheltered Big Banks from competition by imposing immense regulatory compliance costs.
227   LastMan   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 12, 4:31pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Strategist says
I look at results, and what I see is banks arenot lending for housing like they used to, or even close. There are hardly any portfolio loans available today that gave a range of options to potential borrowers for housing loans that were available 20 to 30 years ago.


Maybe you could give some more detail on this then. Do you want to see pick-a-pay come back?
228   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Oct 12, 4:31pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
If you mean Dodd-Frank, that was a Pastiche of Reform that simply sheltered Big Banks from competition by imposing immense regulatory compliance costs.


lol--that's why Big Banks wanted it repealed so badly, right? And why they paid Trump to get it done?

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