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No price, no purchase!


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2018 Nov 12, 8:32am   3,703 views  31 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

Getting tired of cafes and bars that simply do not list prices.

It's a subtle social engineering trick. They are relying on most people's reluctance to ask what prices are. To ask is to look cheap to your friends, and to the servers.

Places that do not list prices almost inevitably charge more than you would pay if you saw the price before ordering.

It's very disrespectful to customers. In general, you should simply leave and never go back to any cafe, bar, etc, that does not explicitly list all of its prices.

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1   NDrLoR   2018 Nov 12, 8:42am  

Patrick says
They are relying on most people's reluctance to ask what prices are.
They're also trying desperately to be hip.
2   RWSGFY   2018 Nov 12, 8:57am  

Is it legal?
3   🎂 Tenpoundbass   2018 Nov 12, 9:02am  

If only there were some Democrats to champion Consumer Protection agendas.
What would we call it?
(smacks head, come on think, THINK!)
4   RC2006   2018 Nov 12, 9:11am  

I have always avoided any place that uses this tactic. But hey if you must, you can always do the same to the tip to balance it out.
5   Evan F.   2018 Nov 12, 10:00am  

Patrick says
Getting tired of cafes and bars that simply do not list prices.

Bars I've seen, sure, but cafes is a new one on me. All the major chains list prices.. is this some hipster Bay Area independent cafe nonsense?
6   Malcolm   2018 Nov 12, 10:06am  

This seems like a questionable practice.
7   zzyzzx   2018 Nov 12, 10:22am  

I always look at their webpage for a menu first, which usually lists prices. At least for beer, the prices are usually listed. Sometimes for some mixed drinks too.

Speaking of prices, the Guinness Brewery near me is open, and they actually show the outrageous prices on their Restaurant menu:
https://www.guinnessbrewerybaltimore.com/menus/The_1817_Restaurant_Menu.pdf
If you look you can see that a hamburger there is $18

Now their Bar menu is here:
https://www.guinnessbrewerybaltimore.com/menus/Taproom_Menu.pdf
But still no mention of drink prices, but given what they charge for food, I am sure that it is expensive. Reviews suggest that the food is nothing special.

At least the parking lot is nice, because that's as far as I am going for now until I can do the guided tour (which is $10 and lasts 1/2 hour). I'm not eating there.

Interesting that there is an Irish pub just outside the brewery that has been there for years. Based on the number of cars I see in their parking lot, the brewery opening hasn't dented their business. Now I know why.
8   Ceffer   2018 Nov 12, 10:34am  

With all the tech giants, it was just a matter of time before the SF restaurants and bars started doing vaporware, too.
9   WookieMan   2018 Nov 12, 10:48am  

I don't know, probably will come across as harsh. But if you're that concerned about prices when you go out, should you actually be going out? Most people know where the pricey spots are. They either go their because they're rich or it's a special occasion. Otherwise, 9 out of 10 times you're going to have a rough idea of what you're going to spend when you go out for a dinner and drinks on an average night.

I'm a beer drinker, so maybe wine or mixed drink prices can vary wildly between your average establishments. But my wife drinks both and when we go out for a night in our area we're looking at $90-$180 for a dinner. A $90 difference is like 45 minutes of work in one day between us. Pretty inconsequential. I'd say if you're concerned about dropping $30 extra on some drinks, you might need to stay home that night. And if the establishment has been around for a while without listing prices, then there's a reason they're still around. Something is good about the place.

I don't like the practice honestly, but I also don't really see it being a big deal. It's not like some dive bar is going to charge you $12 for a Bud Light because they didn't list the price. They'd be out of business in a week.
10   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Nov 12, 11:07am  

DASKAA says
Is it legal?


I imagine in some states it isn't. I know in many states almost anything on display has to have a price sticker, even if the price is displayed on the shelf under the item.
11   WookieMan   2018 Nov 12, 12:34pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
DASKAA says
Is it legal?


I imagine in some states it isn't. I know in many states almost anything on display has to have a price sticker, even if the price is displayed on the shelf under the item.


At a grocery store, sure. Patrick seemed to be talking about bars/cafes. I really don't have too much of a problem with it. They have to flex prices (happy hour, ladies night, specials, etc). Sometimes not knowing the price works in your advantage. They might be having a sale on certain types of wine to get rid of some inventory that's been hanging around. They might not have sold it if there's a menu showing $10 for a glass, when they're actually selling it for $6. Can't rely on servers to accurately get the specials across either and it's not always efficient to change 100 menus to get rid of 8-10 bottles of wine.

Again, harsh opinion, but frankly don't go out if you're concerned about what something costs, especially food and drink. It's not a car purchase. Unless you're going to the 5 course, top of the line restaurant in your area, prices are generally reasonable anywhere I've been in my area and traveling. Food items also correlate very much with the booze pricing. A joint that has a $10 burger versus a $15 burger and you know you're going to be paying more for booze at the $15 a burger joint. It's not too tough to figure out.
12   curious2   2018 Nov 12, 1:19pm  

WookieMan says
At a grocery store, sure.


Actually Trader Joe's and some others don't even publish price per unit of measure. They favor handwritten tags, a fashionable way to fool the customer.

The American medical sector overcharges people on an even larger scale. Usually no prices are published, and even if you ask, the answer can be a lie. Whole departments generate bills that have almost nothing to do with observable reality. That's crucial to the American medical sector becoming the most expensive in the world, while delivering worse results than dozens of other countries.

WookieMan says
don't go out if you're concerned about what something costs


A fool and his money are soon parted. We live in an empire of debt, with deficit spending, and most people have little or no savings. It is very sad that a nation of savers and investors became a nation of borrowers and spenders. It is bizarre to see that misrepresented as some sort of virtue, as if life is only for borrowers and spenders. If you're saving and investing half your income, that's good, and I suppose you can waste the rest any way you like, but most Americans aren't saving or investing much at all.

Hey, here's a tip for your evening out, ask your Uber Black driver to take you to a rough neighborhood so you can experience the thrill of getting robbed. If you can't afford to get robbed, you should really have stayed home.
13   Shaman   2018 Nov 12, 1:54pm  

Hey just order what you want! If you don’t like the prices you’re charged, negotiate for a smaller amount you are willing to pay. Since the prices aren’t listed, you can’t be accused of fraud. Instead it becomes a negotiation. Haggle a little! It might make your server uncomfortable, but they’ve seen it before, and have an unspoken policy in place for “difficult” customers. Just mention “Yelp” and you’ll get to name your price if not get it for free!

Don’t be afraid. That’s the point. They honestly have no leverage at all to make you pay a certain price if they don’t list the prices anywhere, or inform you of them before your consumption of the items.

If you’re that worried about being seen as a dick, you’re probably not having enough fun anyway!
14   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Nov 12, 2:00pm  

Quigley says
Hey just order what you want! If you don’t like the prices you’re charged, negotiate for a smaller amount you are willing to pay. Since the prices aren’t listed, you can’t be accused of fraud. Instead it becomes a negotiation. Haggle a little! It might make your server uncomfortable, but they’ve seen it before, and have an unspoken policy in place for “difficult” customers. Just mention “Yelp” and you’ll get to name your price if not get it for free!


This will be the end result. Eventually enough Groupon Cheapskate types will drive the owners absolutely nuts, they'll put prices back on the menu.
15   WookieMan   2018 Nov 12, 2:10pm  

curious2 says
A fool and his money are soon parted. We live in an empire of debt, with deficit spending, and most people have little or no savings. It is very sad that a nation of investors and savers became a nation of borrowers and spenders. It is bizarre to see that misrepresented as some sort of virtue, as if life is only for borrowers and spenders. If you're saving and investing half your income, that's good, and I suppose you can waste the rest any way you like, but most Americans aren't saving or investing much at all.


I do fine. Can spend what I like. Retirement on track 100%. I guess that was my point though. If you're concerned about pricing, you probably shouldn't be going out for drinks, coffee, a restaurant, etc. in the first place. Those types of expenses should only happen if you've hit all your savings goals prior or are at least on track to hit them. I understand everyone can't just not worry about the prices of stuff, but if you are worried, there's probably another problem going on and like you said it's probably debt and stupid spending (like going out).

I get being cost conscious about buying a car, house, a mower, redoing your driveway, etc. (3, 4, 5 figure items) If you can't handle prices varying on a roughly $100 restaurant bill, you probably shouldn't be going out. At that point it's not about seeing the price of a beer. You can stay at home and get a 6 pack for the cost of 1 beer and not be worried about it anymore. Grill up a burger for $2 and drink your $6 in beer. It's not hard to live frugally and still have a blast.

curious2 says
The American medical sector overcharges people on an even larger scale.


This I agree with and is 100% true. Had my first ambulance ride to the ER recently (been to the ER before - no ambulance). $12k billed to the insurance company for 4 staples in my head after a nasty fall (was rather nasty, knocked out for 15 min and wife found me in a pool of blood). This took 2-1/2 hours. The EMT's are paid by the local gov. Supplies, gas used probably $300 and that's probably high for the EMT's. ER was staples, numbing injection, blood tests, IV bag and some head and back scan. High end, $1k for this stuff I imagine. Give the ER doc and nurses $2k for my visit and I still don't see this being more than a $3-4k cost. Throw in profit and $6k would be completely reasonable. Yet it's $12k.
16   HeadSet   2018 Nov 12, 2:31pm  

I get being cost conscious about buying a car, house, a mower, redoing your driveway, etc. (3, 4, 5 figure items)

Yes, it is the big ticket items, not the small stuff that people should worry about. But many of the folks who worry about the price of meals, drive several blocks for cheaper fuel, and do the Groupon bit seem to be lax concerning:

Overpaying for college because they can get a student loan.
Overpaying for a vehicle because they can get a 5-7 year loan
Overpaying for a house because they can get a 30 year mortgage
17   marcus   2018 Nov 12, 2:38pm  

I found that really annoying in a restaurant once or twice that I've seen, many years ago. I thought that had actually gone out of vogue. Either that or it has been too far out of my price range in recent decades for me to run in to it.

They're basically telling you to assume the price is pretty much as high as you can possibly imagine. "our ambiance and customers are so cool that we deserve the extra 50% or whatever. We only want customers who think price is irrelevant."

Fuck that.
18   Shaman   2018 Nov 12, 2:39pm  

WookieMan says
Throw in profit and $6k would be completely reasonable. Yet it's $12k


That’s the suckers price. Only people with plenty of money paying out of pocket or very high end insurance plans pay this amount. Chances are your insurance company paid half of that, and The hospital said thanks and wrote off the rest. Even if you had to pay out of pocket you could haggle it down quite a lot: rule is 1/2 to 2/3 off list price is what they’ll accept before turning your account over to collections (who will give them 10% of the bill).

Of course, if you’re illegal, it’s free!
19   WookieMan   2018 Nov 12, 2:55pm  

marcus says
I found that really annoying in a restaurant once or twice that I've seen, many years ago. I thought that had actually gone out of vogue. Either that or it has been too far out of my price range in recent decades for me to run in to it.

They're basically telling you to assume the price is pretty much as high as you can possibly imagine. "our ambiance and customers are so cool that we deserve the extra 50% or whatever. We only want customers who think price is irrelevant."

Fuck that.


I run into it almost 90% of the time when it comes to drinks at a non-chain restaurant (no prices). At least in my area in IL. No prices for the booze. I don't even think twice about it though. Never really thought of it as an issue. This has to be some sort of regional thing now that I'm recognizing some of the users that take issue with it (this is not a knock, just an observation).

I go out expecting $5/beer domestic and $7-8/beer craft/import. If it's less, great. It's almost never higher unless at a concert to in some corporate or downtown uppity type bar/restaurant. Don't do wine or mixed drinks, but asked my wife and she says the same with her beverage of preference. Pricing is always kind of "known" even if it's not on the menu.

Food items is a different story. Don't think I've ever been to place that didn't have the pricing on a food item. Drinks though, very common here not to list price. Especially beer.
20   marcus   2018 Nov 12, 3:01pm  

Of course on drinks, people generally aren't going to ask anyway, even if there is some wine and beer menu somewhere.

Although if a place specializes in fancy cocktails and they are charging $15 or more for them, I find that annoying. I guess I am cheap.

WookieMan says
Especially beer


If they have an extensive menu of craft beers, including belgian etc., then they kind of need to list the price so as not to shock the uninformed.
21   curious2   2018 Nov 12, 6:41pm  

Quigley says
Chances are your insurance company paid half of that, and The hospital said thanks and wrote off the rest.


That can happen in California, which prohibited "balance billing" in 2016 AB 72. That legislation took effect in July 2017. It took that long for California to recognize this particular flaw in Obamneycare: in other states, the hospital can bill you for the balance. They can even use the $$$ they got from the insurance company to finance suing you. It matters a lot in large bills. You can read more about it in the thread "Why Democrats Lost." Bottom line: in many states outside California, Obamneycare is actually much worse than it is here, and the public approval does appear to vary according to which states have enacted legislation to reduce the harm. In general, several blue states have started to do what they could to mitigate the damage, once they got around (finally) to recognizing that there were flaws, while red states have mostly refused to cooperate. In the early years, blue states were also refusing to do anything about it, and shouting that anyone who criticized the legislation was racist. The Minnesota legislature declared "Obamacare" a racist word, meaning people were not even allowed to say it, let alone criticize it. At some point, Minnesota got around to prohibiting "balance billing", once they recognized the existence of the problem.


WookieMan says

Food items is a different story. Don't think I've ever been to place that didn't have the pricing on a food item. Drinks though, very common here not to list price.

That might result from a difference in local or state regulation, and it might explain why many restaurateurs say they make almost all of their profits on alcohol.
22   zzyzzx   2018 Nov 13, 10:45am  

I also hate it in ads (particular grocery store ads) where is says "buy one, get one free", but the sales circular doesn't mention the price. Safeway does this a lot. You know that at this price it's still not really a sale price.
23   Evan F.   2018 Nov 13, 10:52am  

WookieMan says
Had my first ambulance ride to the ER recently

Ouch, man, that sucks. Hope you are healing well.
24   Evan F.   2018 Nov 13, 10:56am  

Quigley says
That’s the suckers price. Only people with plenty of money paying out of pocket or very high end insurance plans pay this amount. Chances are your insurance company paid half of that, and The hospital said thanks and wrote off the rest. Even if you had to pay out of pocket you could haggle it down quite a lot: rule is 1/2 to 2/3 off list price is what they’ll accept before turning your account over to collections (who will give them 10% of the bill).


THIS. So this. Medical billing is a fucking scam, full stop. Actually nobody pays that initial price, not even wealthy idiots. If you're insured it's always the 'negotiated price' that the insurance company pays and then some fraction you're left responsible for after the fact, depending on how good your coverage is. And there's literally no standard for pricing. Wookieman's $12k ambulance ride might have been $4k for someone else. Or $20k.
25   mell   2018 Nov 13, 10:59am  

Friend got into the ER with a bug bite at the head and swelling, told them to give her prednisone. They refused and kept her 2 days in a shitty makeshift half-room with IV Abx to no avail til they just gave her the prednisone she asked for in the first place (she's a pharm.) and it went away within a day. The bill is over $30K+ when she could have been treated out-patient with a few hours of monitoring instead, probably for less than $1K total. The system is broken and shit like this needs to be actionable on by law.
26   Ceffer   2018 Nov 13, 11:04am  

Some EMT courses are now titled 'Advanced CPR and Patdowns For Credit Cards'.
27   zzyzzx   2018 Nov 13, 11:06am  

mell says
Friend got into the ER with a bug bite at the head and swelling, told them to give her prednisone. They refused and kept her 2 days in a shitty makeshift half-room with IV Abx to no avail til they just gave her the prednisone she asked for in the first place (she's a pharm.) and it went away within a day. The bill is over $30K+ when she could have been treated out-patient with a few hours of monitoring instead, probably for less than $1K total. The system is broken and shit like this needs to be actionable on by law.


And the reason they went to the ER instead of an urgent care place was?
Seriously, only go to the ER if you can speak Spanish and with no ID.
28   mell   2018 Nov 13, 11:10am  

zzyzzx says
mell says
Friend got into the ER with a bug bite at the head and swelling, told them to give her prednisone. They refused and kept her 2 days in a shitty makeshift half-room with IV Abx to no avail til they just gave her the prednisone she asked for in the first place (she's a pharm.) and it went away within a day. The bill is over $30K+ when she could have been treated out-patient with a few hours of monitoring instead, probably for less than $1K total. The system is broken and shit like this needs to be actionable on by law.


And the reason they went to the ER instead of an urgent care place was?
Seriously, only go to the ER if you can speak Spanish and with no ID.


By that time the swelling was so bad that it could have potentially affected breathing if progressed towards throat area, eyes were almost shut and later completely swollen shut. It's a difficult call, but I def agree had they gone earlier and to urgent care the outcome would likely have been better and cheaper.
29   RWSGFY   2018 Nov 13, 12:01pm  

zzyzzx says
Seriously, only go to the ER if you can speak Spanish and with no ID.


My Spanish is rudimentary at best. Will other languages work?
30   RC2006   2018 Nov 13, 12:07pm  

DASKAA says
zzyzzx says
Seriously, only go to the ER if you can speak Spanish and with no ID.


My Spanish is rudimentary at best. Will other languages work?


Just do what my 7yo does and replace the first letter of every word you say with an s or sh, they will be thinking its some sort of chinese.
31   NDrLoR   2018 Nov 13, 12:20pm  

zzyzzx says
"buy one, get one free"
Several years ago, JC Penney would run ads for Florsheim penny loafers for buy one pair, get the second pair half price. That was a good deal, but when I'd ask for the second pair, they'd go to the back room for a few minutes and, sure enough, come back and say we don't have another in that size. I'd ask for a rain check and they'd say we don't give rain checks. I raised a stink and told them that was essentially bait and switch and simply demanded the first pair at half price as a consolation and they gave them to me half price. They pulled that stunt twice and I've still got two boxes of as yet unused Florsheim penny loafers.

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