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Can anyone refute this guy's argument against Democrat open border immigration?

By Goran_K following x   2018 Nov 29, 8:37am 1,090 views   125 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    





If so I'd like to hear the argument.

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86   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 30, 10:07am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
mell says
doesn't stop illegal immigration


Nobody is saying it won't stop some of the illegal immigration. Only that it won't stop all illegal immigration. How much will it stop and is it worth the cost? That is the issue.


Fine, so people with "feelz" (Dems, SJWs) say it's not worth the cost while the overwhelming majority of countries are happy with the ROI and keep their walls - some even strongly enforcing them lately such as Hungary, Poland etc. - clearly indicates the "feelz" are wrong on this. It's highly unlikely - close to impossible - that all countries suddenly are gripped by mass hysteria. No, they did the math and came to the conclusion that the ROI of living without hostile rapefugees is worth every penny.
87   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 10:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Because they didn't have enough power to override the constitution which democrats would happily do if they could.


Are you talking about amendments now. I was referring to Congress having the ability to write laws not amendments.

Goran_K says
I actually know how laws work. :(


Wait, no, looks like we are talking about laws, care to explain how Congress writes a law that overrides the Constitution?

Me personally, I'd call that an amendment not a law.
88   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 10:30am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The man's presentation is full of impeccable information, logic, precision and reasoning. You ought to know by now that that doesn't work worth shit as an argument.
89   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 30, 10:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

DASKAA says
passport system, that didn't exist until WWII
.

Not true.


I was wrong, WWI.
90   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 11:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Are you talking about amendments now. I was referring to Congress having the ability to write laws not amendments.



Congress cannot write a law saying "open borders", you should read how the laws work.

Herdingcats says
Me personally, I'd call that an amendment not a law.



What would the open borders amendment look like, how would it pass?
91   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 11:14am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Ceffer says
The man's presentation is full of impeccable information, logic, precision and reasoning. You ought to know by now that that doesn't work worth shit as an argument.


Apparently not.
92   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 30, 11:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Well. Uh.
Yeah!
Herdingcats says
Not really, I said pour spelling isn't pointed out by the same team members
93   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 11:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
What would the open borders amendment look like, how would it pass?


Good question. How would they do that? You are the one stating that the intention of the democrats is to have an open border policy and that you know how laws work. So what power would Democrats have needed in 2008- 2010 to institute this open borders policy you state the Democrats so desperately desire?

You said
Goran_K says
Because they didn't have enough power to override the constitution which democrats would happily do if they could.


Can you explain that to me, how does Congress override the Constitution?

I know that the president can veto a bill but in 2008- 2010 there was Obama. Also Congress can have their laws be ruled unconstitutional by courts. But I've yet to ever hear of the way Congress "with enough power" can override the Constitution. I'll stop guessing at what exactly you meant by this and let you explain how it works instead.
94   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 12:31pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I am refuting your statement @goran_k , Roy Beck clearly states at the 5 minute mark that Congress if not stopped will let another 1 million immigrants in. Who controlled Congress over the last 2 years?

Furthermore Roy Beck doesn't blame Democrats or Republicans. I'm guessing he knows it's both parties fault.

Not one policy that has anything doing with Democrats wanting an open border has been presented only policies that encourage people to cross borders have been presented this is not the same thing.

I linked to the libertarians policy on open borders if the Democrats have one, like you say they do, you should easily be able to present it here, yet you still haven't.
95   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Nov 30, 12:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
My answer is that a wall won't stop it. So a wall doesn't solve the problem.


But it will greatly reduce illegal border crossings, who are the other half. It will also keep drug and human smuggling down.

Of course walls work, that's why you have a walls and a door in your home. There are scores of walls in the world.

"The wall will only stop half of all illegal crossings" = This treatment "only' reduces the severity of symptoms by 50%, so don't bother..

If you were suffering from issues that prevented you from doing anything, wouldn't a 50% reduction in pain be extremely helpful? Maybe you could get out of bed and do some light chores and enjoy life a little.
96   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 12:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Good question. How would they do that?


Exactly my point. So instead they use "sanctuary cities", "abolish ice", or "catch release".

Same effect, but avoids the nastiness of legality.
97   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 12:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
But I've yet to ever hear of the way Congress "with enough power" can override the Constitution


Bingo. Which is why your original point about 'congress' and open borders made zero sense tatupu.
98   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 12:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Not one policy that has anything doing with Democrats wanting an open border has been presented only policies that encourage people to cross borders have been presented this is not the same thing.


It's the same effect, for sure. You're the ONLY one arguing that it's not.
99   TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce   ignore (4)   2018 Nov 30, 12:46pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Reality says
They were not abducted from their native countries, but volunteered to go to countries like Kuwait. H1B visa recipients are not exactly free labor either, but they still come.


They're enticed under false pretenses. When they arrive penniless and desperate, that's when the abuse starts.

They used to do similar shit in the West, entices people back East to come West to work in the mines, forests, and farms. Some desperate dude spent his last few on a train ticket, got there, and they'd say, "Well, Wallace, we're out of the $2/day jobs. But I'm really nice and I'll pay you $1/day and deduct room & board at my company store where everything is marked up 300%. Maybe by the end of the harvest season six 60-hour weeks from now you'll have just enough to buy a ticket back to Cleveland from Bozeman"

When Qatar has the World Cup, the same Neoliberal Media that gave the public 24-7 in-depth reporting on old Russian Toilets will studiously ignore the huge numbers of slaves/indentured servants involved in making the World Cup possible.

Alas, when you land in Doha, the goalposts have shifted slightly. This much becomes apparent when you’re handed a helmet and a high-viz jacket and told to present yourself at a building site at 6am the following morning. You’re not working as a clerk in an office, you’re building a football stadium. They’re not quite sure who told you the $400 a month figure, but it’s actually going to be $200, less miscellaneous costs. The recruitment fee isn’t $200 as you’d agreed, but $2000, plus the cost of your flight to Qatar. Your crisp new passport is confiscated. You cannot quit your job. You cannot leave the country. And before you have even clocked in for your first shift, you owe your employer the equivalent of two years’ wages.


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatars-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html

It's an ancient scam, used by the VOC, by Mining Companies, and now Qatar.
100   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 1:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Herdingcats says
Good question. How would they do that?


Exactly my point. So instead they use "sanctuary cities", "abolish ice", or "catch release".

Same effect, but avoids the nastiness of legality.


So let me get this straight, You are saying that if there were open borders the same amount of people would come to the US as those policies encourage now to come in illegally? Me, I'm guessing a whole shit ton more people would come to the US if there were open borders. So no, it's not the same effect.
101   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 1:11pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
So let me get this straight, You are saying that if there were open borders the same amount of people would come to the US as those policies encourage now to come in illegally?


Ha, no.

I'm saying a crap ton of people are coming over already due to those policies, and if the Democrats get their way, even more would come over sure, but it's the same effect in that people are flowing over the border en masse. You're just playing semantics between a 20 foot tidal wave versus a 100 foot tidal wave.

Both are shitty.
102   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 1:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Herdingcats says
Not one policy that has anything doing with Democrats wanting an open border has been presented only policies that encourage people to cross borders have been presented this is not the same thing.


It's the same effect, for sure. You're the ONLY one arguing that it's not.


How can it be the same effect if a higher volumes of people cross the border under an open border policy?
103   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 1:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
How can it be the same effect if a higher volumes of people cross the border under an open border policy?



When you get punched in the head 1 time, you get hurt.

When you get punched in the head 3 times, you get hurt.

You're playing semantics (typical troll tactic as you well know tatupu).

You have a small hole in a dam, you have a leak.

You have a big hole in a dam, you have a bigger leak.

Same effect, just a gradation.

104   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 2:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
but it's the same effect in that people are flowing over the border en masse.


Yet if the democrats didn't have those polices we'd have the same effect? To me this doesn't make sense. I mean without those policies people would still cross the border illegally. In fact people have crossed the border illegally longer than any of those policies were even policies.

In fact before Obama there was a steady rise in the population of illegals and The number of unauthorized immigrants living in the United States was lower in 2016 than at any time since 2004. If the Democrats really truly wanted an open border policy why did the amount of illegals drop so drastically under Obama?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/28/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
105   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 3:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
I'm saying a crap ton of people are coming over already due to those policies


You might be saying it but that doesn't make it true. Why was there less illegals in the US in 2016 than in 2008 if Democrats support an open border policy?
107   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 7:37pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Rocketmanjoe says
I don't think this is true. Why can't the democrats advocate for open borders? What law would they be breaking?


Oh they do advocate for it. That much is true.

But they cannot attempt to put it into "letter of law", unless they somehow were able to dominate every branch of government and go through the arduous process of the laws governing who is responsible for defending the nations borders.


This here I'd consider trolling. You are trying to tell this rocketmanjoe cat that every branch of government must be dominated for Congress to write a bill. This just is not true. You are spreading misinformation, why?
108   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 8:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Herdingcats says
But I've yet to ever hear of the way Congress "with enough power" can override the Constitution


Bingo. Which is why your original point about 'congress' and open borders made zero sense tatupu.


What? Which point are you referring to? You are the one who said,

Goran_K says
Because they didn't have enough power to override the constitution which democrats would happily do if they could.


Which makes no sense. And all you have to say for such a trolling comment is 'bingo'? If you are not trolling please point out above your comment #83 where I said anything about Congress and open borders? I'll be waiting ... Forever because I didn't I checked.

Furthermore I'm not tatupu sorry to burst that bubble too.
109   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 8:30pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
Herdingcats says
But I've yet to ever hear of the way Congress "with enough power" can override the Constitution


Bingo. Which is why your original point about 'congress' and open borders made zero sense tatupu.


What? Which point are you referring to? You are the one who said,

Goran_K says
Because they didn't have enough power to override the constitution which democrats would happily do if they could.


You said this in comment 83, it makes no sense, And all you have to say for such a trolling comment is 'bingo'? If you are not trolling please point out above your comment #83 where I said anything about Congress and open borders? I'll be waiting ... Forever because I didn't I checked.

Furthermore I'm not tatupu sorry to burst that bubble too.
110   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 1, 5:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@goran_k

If you don't like trolling and trolling is considered to be not responding to valid points made then can we please have a response to the point that I have made?

I refute that Roy Beck's argument is that Democrats have an open border policy please state at what point he makes this argument.

There were less illegal immigrants at the end of Obama's presidency than at the beginning. If Democrats truly had an open border policy one would expect more. Why doesn't the data comport with your opinion?

And finally I said and you responded,Goran_K says
Herdingcats says
If that is true then why didn't they do it in 2008-2010 when they had their chance to?



Because they didn't have enough power to override the constitution which democrats would happily do if they could.


Can you explain how a political party can override the Constitution? I've asked this one several times yet you won't explain what you meant. personally I think it is just a trollish response that you gave but I'm giving you the opportunity to explain to me that it was a valid comment.

If trolling is not responding to valid points then since you are against trolling you should respond to these valid points or state why they are not valid points. The ball is in your court.
111   komputodo   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 1, 9:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
They advocate for passion for those that have made it here.


Passion or compassion?
112   Sunnyvale94087   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 1, 1:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Why was there less illegals in the US in 2016 than in 2008 if Democrats support an open border policy?

Easy answer: Change the way illegals are counted.

When you say "less" are you referring to the quality of the illegals? If so it should be "lesser." If you are referring to a countable quantity of illegals then the correct word is "fewer."
113   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 7:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

komputodo says
Herdingcats says
They advocate for passion for those that have made it here.


Passion or compassion?


Compassion, thank you.
114   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 7:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sunnyvale94087 says
When you say "less" are you referring to the quality of the illegals? If so it should be "lesser." If you are referring to a countable quantity of illegals then the correct word is "fewer."


Again thank you, yes fewer.

Also above I saw that I added an e to sat. I meant "sat on their hands .
115   Herdingcats   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 8:00am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@goran_k

Goran_K says
I'm saying a crap ton of people are coming over already due to those policies


So no response to the fact that there was fewer illegal aliens at the end of Obama's term than at the start?

How about the fact that the amount of ICE agents increased during Obama's term. Wouldn't one expect the amount of agents to decrease if as was opined above the democrats wanted to abolish ICE?

Yes Goran I do refute you, Do you care to respond? I do believe I'm making some valid points, why won't you debate them?
116   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2018 Dec 2, 8:19am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
None has been linked.

This is a great example of iwogian logic.
117   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2018 Dec 2, 8:21am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Does ICE = boarder patrol? What do sectuary cities have to do with open boarders? Or what does SF registering illegals to vote for education issues at we're their legal kids go to school have to do with open boarders?

But iwog was a better speller.
118   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2018 Dec 2, 9:49am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
why didn't the Democrats do it in 2008-2010 when they had control of Congress

Too busy bailing out the banks and subsidizing the insurance companies.
119   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2018 Dec 2, 10:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

ICE does not patrol bed and breakfast establishments...
Onvacation says
Does ICE = boarder patrol?
120   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Dec 2, 10:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
The number of unauthorized immigrants living in the United States was lower in 2016 than at any time since 2004. If the Democrats really truly wanted an open border policy why did the amount of illegals drop so drastically under Obama?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/28/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/


How do you know that for sure? That article is basing it on "Estimates". If they entered illegally and weren't caught, how does anyone know they're here? Is Pew good at counting ghosts?

Does Pew call all these illegals on their cell phones to ask them if they are in the country illegally?
122   Sunnyvale94087   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 12:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Also above I saw that I added an e to sat. I meant "sat on their hands .

And it's "were" not "was" in your original. :-)
123   Sunnyvale94087   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 12:27pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
So no response to the fact that there was fewer illegal aliens at the end of Obama's term than at the start?

How about the fact that the amount of ICE agents increased during Obama's term. Wouldn't one expect the amount of agents to decrease if as was opined above the democrats wanted to abolish ICE?

(1) Change how you count illegals. Or don't count them at all, for that matter.
(2) More agents, but not allowed to do their job effectively. Obama agents are merely handing out bottles of water and seeing to it that illegals get on the right bus headed towards their illegal relatives. Much more effective would be 1/4 the number of agents that are allowed to shoot on sight.

I realize the above response is "embellished," but you get the point.
124   komputodo   ignore (0)   2018 Dec 2, 2:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

No but they really need to reform the illegal immigrant policy in regards to the illegals that have several years working in the USA first. How about making the illegals legal by having them fingerprinted, retinal scans or whatever and having them agree to sign documents stating that they will not apply for any govt economic programs and also charge them a fee which can be paid in payments...When they have payed in full, they receive a work permit and be on the road to becoming a legal citizen if they follow the rules. This way there is no worry that they are going to just live off of welfare
125   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2018 Dec 2, 2:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

komputodo says
No but they really need to reform the illegal immigrant policy in regards to the illegals that have several years working in the USA first. How about making the illegals legal by having them fingerprinted, retinal scans or whatever and having them agree to sign documents stating that they will not apply for any govt economic programs and also charge them a fee which can be paid in payments...When they have payed in full, they receive a work permit and be on the road to becoming a legal citizen if they follow the rules. This way there is no worry that they are going to just live off of welfare


Why not just follow the procedures for legal immigration? Why cater to people who cut in line?

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