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Historian tells billionaires at Davos to stop preaching about philanthropy and solve inequality - by paying their taxes

By Patrick following x   2019 Jan 31, 9:44pm 345 views   21 comments   watch   sfw   quote     share    


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6649951/Historian-goes-viral-telling-billionaires-stop-preaching-philanthropy-pay-tax.html

A Dutch historian has struck a chord with internet users for calling out billionaires who preach about philanthropy but avoid paying their taxes.

Rutger Bregman was speaking on a panel at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, where the world's richest and most influential people convene every January to discuss 'improving the state of the world'.

Apparently unperturbed by an audience of powerful and wealthy business leaders, 30-year-old Bregman took aim at the billionaire elite and ultra-rich celebrities for pushing 'stupid philanthropy schemes'.

All they really need to do to solve inequality, the Dutchman said, is simply pay their fair share of taxes.

'I hear people talking the language of participation and justice and equality and transparency, but then, almost no one raises the real issue of tax avoidance, right? And of the rich just not paying their fair share,' he remarked on Friday during 'The Cost of Inequality' panel discussion.

After pointing out that there was only one panel at Davos dedicated to discussing tax avoidance, Bregman said it felt like being at 'a firefighters' conference and no one's allowed to speak about water.'

'This is not rocket science,' he added. 'We can talk for a very long time about all these stupid philanthropy schemes.

'We can invite Bono once more. But come on! We've got to be talking about taxes. Taxes, taxes, taxes. All the rest is b******* in my opinion.'


I bet his invitation to Davos has been permanently cancelled.
2   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 11:57am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

On 2/1/19 5:52 PM, Patrick wrote:
> I think a lot of people see capitalism as a kind of lottery that they might win. It's almost a religion. If you tell Christians that Jesus is actually not their savior, they are just not going to want to hear it.
>
> They need an alternative source of hope.
>
> On 01/Feabhra/2019 10:21, H wrote:
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/01/rutger-bregman-world-economic-forum-davos-speech-tax-billionaires-capitalism
>>
>> again, why is this going hugely viral on the general internet but being ignored on patnet?
3   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 11:59am   ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The biggest injustice is the capital gains tax.

Billionaires pay only 15% on epic amounts of money they just sit around and collect.

Surgeons pay 37% for doing something really useful with their time.

Why is this? Seems like pure corruption, and people should be up in arms about it.
4   Tenpoundbass   ignore (13)   2019 Feb 2, 12:04pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It boggles my mind that people want to take money from productive people and make them give it to the Governments, the same Governments that are corrupt and give themselves raises while inflicting Economic policies that destroys middle class jobs, and creates part time Fast Food workers as the largest growing industry segment.

But then they freak out over rising interest rates which would actually benefit everyone that was wise enough to save their money and be frugal instead of spending and pissing it away. They worry charging Billionairs 8% interest would break them. But not taxing them 70%.

It boggles the mind. It really does.
5   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 12:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The biggest injustice is the capital gains tax.

It ain't just the rich who do capital gains. Common schmoes who have held some stocks for over a year, plus someone selling an old rental property come under the capital gains umbrella. Still, no reason capital gains should not be taxed at the same rate as earned income.
6   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 12:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They worry charging Billionairs 8% interest would break them.

No, that is the 'scuse. The real reason against "high" interest rates is so many of those people are debt-holes, and not savers.
7   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2019 Feb 2, 12:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
The biggest injustice is the capital gains tax.

Billionaires pay only 15% on epic amounts of money they just sit around and collect.

Surgeons pay 37% for doing something really useful with their time.


Surgeons pay 37% on the first bite of the apple, and invest what's left over.

On the second bite, when they cash in those investments, they pay 15%.

What do you want them to do, pay 37% BOTH times?

Sounds kinda Socialist, don't you think?
8   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2019 Feb 2, 12:23pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
It boggles my mind that people want to take money from productive people and make them give it to the Governments, the same Governments that are corrupt and give themselves raises while inflicting Economic policies that destroys middle class jobs, and creates part time Fast Food workers as the largest growing industry segment.

But then they freak out over rising interest rates which would actually benefit everyone that was wise enough to save their money and be frugal instead of spending and pissing it away. They worry charging Billionairs 8% interest would break them. But not taxing them 70%.


@Patrick , are you listening?

HeadSet says
Still, no reason capital gains should not be taxed at the same rate as earned income.


See my comment above, the money was already taxed ONCE at that level, when it was originally earned.
9   Tenpoundbass   ignore (13)   2019 Feb 2, 12:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
Still, no reason capital gains should not be taxed at the same rate as earned income.


At one time the government encouraged financial growth. If your bank account was a 80's era Savings and Loan Savings account earning you 4 to 8% interest you would be singing a different tune. I guarantee it. You champion capital gain taxes now, because only people who already has substantial money has enough money of their own, to put their capital to work for them.
10   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 1:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
HeadSet says
Still, no reason capital gains should not be taxed at the same rate as earned income.


At one time the government encouraged financial growth. If your bank account was a 80's era Savings and Loan Savings account earning you 4 to 8% interest you would be singing a different tune. I guarantee it. You champion capital gain taxes now, because only people who already has substantial money has enough money of their own, to put their capital to work for them.


"Interest" and "Capital Gains" are not the same. Interest already is taxed the same as ordinary income. And lots of Regular Joes get Cap Gain distributions from their mutual funds, or capital gains from some stocks they sell when they retire.

You may have a point when it comes to Cap Gains on housing. Last year I sold a rental property I held for 18 years. I had to pay Cap Gains on the appreciation, but luckily at the reduced rate. However, all I was really paying was a tax on inflation.
11   d6rB   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 1:19pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MrMagic says
What do you want them to do, pay 37% BOTH times?

Second 37% would be paid only on gains, not on principal.
Sad reality is that in any case middle class will be the ones screwed. Poor have nothing to be taxed, and billionaires will hide their money offshore and/or buy of politicians to create loopholes which will result in them paying little. After that, billionaires will meet in Davos and blabber about need for higher taxes (for everyone except themselves).
12   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 1:19pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MrMagic says
Surgeons pay 37% on the first bite of the apple, and invest what's left over.

On the second bite, when they cash in those investments, they pay 15%.

What do you want them to do, pay 37% BOTH times?

Sounds kinda Socialist, don't you think?


The income from investments is still income.

So yes, they should pay at least the same rate on the income from investing that they do on the income from actually working.
13   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2019 Feb 2, 1:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
The income from investments is still income.

So yes, they should pay at least the same rate on the income from investing that they do on the income from actually working.


You need to be careful there, that will drive the people who actually pay the bills in the country underground, and we turn into Venezuela.

That's almost as bad as the Social Security tax scam. First, you're taxed on the gross amount of your paycheck, then once you start pulling Social Security in retirement, you're taxed again.
14   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 2:19pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Their investments are not going underground. The ownership of stock is easy to know.

I'm all for a fair return on investment. But at some point the argument that we have to be nice to billionaries just gets silly. Why do billionaires pay only 15% when the rest of us generally pay much more than that for money we have to slowly and painfully earn one hour at a time?

https://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/index.html
15   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2019 Feb 2, 3:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I'm all for a fair return on investment. But at some point the argument that we have to be nice to billionaries just gets silly. Why do billionaires pay only 15% when the rest of us generally pay much more than that for money we have to slowly and painfully earn one hour at a time?


I already told you that, the billionaires already paid that 37% on the first go around, then they invested what's left. You pay a lot less as a percentage in taxes then they do.

But here's what I see, you've made a good turn-around and see parts of the Democrat/Liberal machine as evil, and see the light with Trump. But still, deep down, you're a Bernie Liberal/Socialist at heart, who wants to take all the money from the rich people.

Here's the fantasy that the Liberals still believe, you hit on it in the buffet tax link above. This was also the big complaint with Mitt Romney when he was running, that he was only paying a 15% tax rate. The Liberals are stuck on the "percentages" focus, instead of the "dollars". This is evident with the Buffet secretary article.

Please tell me, when was the last time you paid your bills with "percentages" instead of "dollars"?

Let's go back to that evil rich guy Romney, who only paid 15% cap gains tax? Do you remember what he paid in DOLLARS? I bet you don't. Here's a refresher:

...."Mitt Romney made $13.7 million last year and paid $1.94 million in federal income taxes, giving him an effective tax rate of 14.1%, his campaign said Friday."
https://money.cnn.com/2012/09/21/pf/taxes/romney-tax-return/index.html

So, yes he paid a 14% tax rate, but how many DOLLARS did he pay in ONE year? Many people don't pay $2 million in taxes in their entire career, and he paid that in ONE year.

What does the federal government pay it's bills with, "percentages" or "dollars". Who pays the bulk of the federal bills in the country? The upper 10% of evil "rich" people.

So, if you want to hammer the "rich" guys for NOT paying enough, just remember to do the math in "dollars" and NOT "percentages". They can easily move those dollars (not percentages) elsewhere.
16   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 4:17pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MrMagic says
I already told you that, the billionaires already paid that 37% on the first go around


Woah, wtf lol.

When exactly did they pay that 37% on the billions in capital gains?

And percentages are exactly the right number to look at btw.

Mark 12:41-44 New International Version (NIV)

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”
17   d6rB   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 4:41pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Patrick,

lately, rich get much richer while bottom 50% get less and less (see distribution of income gains in last 50 yrs), If this continues, bottom 50% will vote in Chavez Junior or, even worse, we will get French Revolution, with banksters and billionaires (ones who will not escape) guillotined. Not that there is anything wrong with guillotining banksters, but it will be accompanied with massive social upheaval. However, banksters and mega-rich are so greedy that they do not understand this. They think that buying off D's and R's is enough - but at some point will not.

During so-called "golden American times" in 1950's, CEO's did not earn 3-4 orders of magnitude more than workers (which is the case now). State did not bail out most large companies that failed. Perhaps that attitude should be brought back.

While taxes should be low, I really do not see why some tax-dodging billionaire weasel should pay less %-wise than a middle class person. Billionaire also likely supports "paying fair share of taxes", of course after he has hidden most of his assets in Bahamas. So "fair share" babble is for upper middle class taxes, not mega-rich.
18   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 5:14pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        









Now in every case, you see the the very richest people are paying a lower percent of their taxes, even though they got the greatest benefits from government.

The trick they use is to point at the people below them on the income scale and claim that those are the rich people. And the American public falls for it over and over.

It's not the guy making $200K or even $1 million per year who is cheating. It's the guys who make way the fuck more than that. Those are the bastards at Davos.
19   TrumpingTits   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 5:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Why is this? Seems like pure corruption, and people should be up in arms about it.


Supply and demand.

Surgeons are more plentiful than people with lots of capital to invest. They are also only available for one market, due to licensing, etc. Whereas capital is just a mouseclick away from being sent out of country to somewhere else.
20   Patrick   ignore (1)   2019 Feb 2, 6:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Lol, not true.

Capital (real capital) is not particularly mobile. It is mostly land, buildings, etc. But there is also the intellectual capital of highly trained workers. They can move.

Billionaires have convinced everyone that, oh my, if their low tax rates were raised to be equal to poorer people's tax rates, the world would end.

Bullshit.
21   MrMagic   ignore (10)   2019 Feb 2, 7:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Woah, wtf lol.

When exactly did they pay that 37% on the billions in capital gains?


They didn't. You claimed above that the surgeon was:

Patrick says
Surgeons pay 37% for doing something really useful with their time.


Remember? Here's another tip, you don't need a millionaires salary to pay that rate:


Here's another hint, no one starts out as a Millionaire or Billionaire, they all have to work their way up the ladder, paying taxes as they go. When they get to the $600K, their paying the max rate. So they work their way up, pay their increasing taxes and save what's left, and hopefully make some decent investment decisions with it, that they can sell in the future.

Patrick says
And percentages are exactly the right number to look at btw.


Sorry, no they are not (except in your world). Once again, percentages DON'T pay the bills, DOLLARS do. Look at the small percentage of people that pay the bulk of federal taxes:



The top 15% of taxpayers pay 75% of the tax burden in the country. So railing that rich people don't pay their fair share in percentages is looney talk.


Patrick says
Now in every case, you see the the very richest people are paying a lower percent of their taxes, even though they got the greatest benefits from government.


Do you know how to read a chart? That chart shows that everyone under $200K (which is the MAJORITY of the country) pay less than a 11% rate. Your Rich people (making in the millions) are paying DOUBLE that rate, up in the 20%'s.


Patrick says
Billionaires


How many billionaires are there in the country? In a country of 320 MILLION people, with 250 MILLION working age, do you know how many billionaires there are?

...."There are 540 billionaires in the United States, with a combined net worth of $2.399 trillion, according to our 2016 list of the world's richest people."
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hdgi45edgg/the-states-with-the-most/#2b0e90775bc0

So, you're getting all worked up for a group of people that fit such a small percentage of the population?




How's that for "percentages"?


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