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Who Is Really A Socialist?


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2019 Feb 15, 3:51am   3,676 views  32 comments

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Here are some varieties of "socialism:" command socialism, market socialism, socialist market economy, social democracy, democratic socialism, right wing socialism, utopian socialism, corporate socialism, just plain vanilla socialism. Here are some people who have claimed to be socialist, some of them selecting one or another of these types, but some just keeping it plain vanilla generic: Kim Jong-Un, Xi Jinping, Stefan Lofven, Nicolas Maduro, Bernie Sanders, Aexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC). Who is really a socialist and can we make any sense of all this?

Among the strictly economic issues involved here, aside from the political ones, there are three that stick out prominently: ownership, allocation, and distribution. The first may be the most important, or at least the most fundamentally traditionally classical: who owns the means of production? This is bottom line Marx and Engels, and they were unequivocal: socialism is state ownership of the means of production, even though in the "hiigher stage of socialism" generally labeled "pure communism," the statte is supposed to "wither away." Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, although there are debates over some intermediate collective forms such as worker-owned collectives, something favored by anarchistic and utopian socialism and its offshoots and relatives.

Regarding allocation the issue is command versus market, wiith command in its socialist form coming from the state, although clearly a monopoly capitalist system may involve command coming from the large corporations, with this reaching an extreme form in coeporatism and classical fascism, sometimes called corporate socialism. Needless to say, it is possible to have state ownership of the means of production, classical socialism, but some degree of markets dominating allocative decisions.

Then we have distribution. In the Critique of the Gotha Program, Marx said the goal of communism was "from each acording to his ability, to each according to his need." Emphasizing if not precisely that at least a focus on minimizing poverty and supporting those in need as well as increasing the overall level of income and wealth equality is another element of many forms of socialism. This focus has been especially strongly emphasized by social democracy and its relatives, although most forms of socialism have at least officially supported this, if not always in practice.

Regarding our list of socialisms, where do they stand on these three, adding in the big political issue of democracy and free rights versus dictatorship, well: command socialism involves as its name suggests both command in terms of allocation combined with state ownership of the means of production, with no clear outcome on distributional view. Historically permanent command as a system has coincided fully with dictatorship, including when this occurs with capitalism as in fascism, especiallly in its German Nazi form, a nearly pure form of command capitalism. The classic model of this form was the USSR under Stalin, with its leading current example being the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea (DPRK), aka North Korea, which pretty much tells us what kind of socialist Kim Jong-Un is.

Market socialism combines state (or collective) ownership of the means of production with market forces driving allocation decisions. The old example of this that also had that holdover from utopian socialism of workers' management, was Tito's not-so democratic Yugoslavia, which blew up, although its former provincce of Slovenia eventually was the highest real per capit income of all the former officially socialist nations. According to Janos Kornai, market socialism, including his home of Hungary, suffered from the problem of the soft budget constraint, although we have seen that in many mostly market capitalist economies with rent seeking powerful corporations.

There is no clear difference between market socislism and the "socialist market economy," but the Peoples' Republic of China (PRC) has gone out of its way to officially label itself this latter term, perhaps due to the collapse of Yugoslavia. Many, including the late Ronald Coase, claim China is really capitalist, but in fact while there is now much private ownership, state ownership remains very strong, and while there is no longer organized cental planning, command elements remain important, and the ownership situation is very complicated, with many firms having substantial while partial state ownership. In principle this form could be democtatic, but it is not at all that in Xi's current PRC, which has had a largely successful economic system for the last four decades, despite high inequality and other problems. In any case, this is the system Xi Jinping is identified with.

Social democracy now is the form that emphasizes distributional equality and support for the poor over the ownership and alllocation elements. This is now, most dramatically in the Nordic nations, although it has had a weaker version in Germany in the form of the social market economy. The name "social democracy" comes from the now century and a half old German Social Democratic Party, within which at the end of the 19th century several of these forms debated with each other, although in the end what came out, inspired by the original "revisionist" Eduard Bernstein, was what we now call social democracy, which is indeed politically democratic and supporting an expansive welfare state, while not pushing either state ownership or command. Stefan Lofven is the current prime minister of Sweden and also leader of the Social Democratic Party of Sweden. A welder and union leader, Lofven just managed to get reelected and form another government last month, although his new government is "moving to the center," and while he is certainly a social democrat, he has also described himself as being a "right wing socialist," and Sweden has pulled back somewhat from its strongly social democratic model over the last quarter of a century.

Which brings us to democratic socialism, currently highly faddish in the US given that both Bernie Sanders and AOC have identified themselves as followers of this ideology. The problem is that of all the others mentioned, this one is the least well defined, and Bernie and AOC themselves seem to disagree. Thus when pushed Bernie posed Denmark as his model, which is a leading example of social democracy, arguably more so even than Sweden now, although its current prime minister is not a Social Democrat (party) and argues that Denmark is "not socialist" (noting its lack of command state ownership). But AOC has at times said that democratic socialism is not social democracy, while exactly what it is remaiins not well defined.

One source might be the platform of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), which AOC officially belongs to. This supports a democratic and decentralized form that emphasizes worker control, if not clearly ownership, with this harking to utopian socialism, with an ultimate goal of state or some other form of collective ownership, but not in this document command. AOC herself has now pushed forward the Green New Deal, (GND) which should perhaps be labeled "Green Socialism," yet another form. I do not wish to get into a discusson in this post of the details of the GND, regarding which there has been some confusion (retracted FAQ versus 14 page Resolution) about which there remain some uncertainties. DSA has at times nodded to the British Labour Party, which after 1945 under Clement Atlee, both nationalized many industries while expanding the social safety net, while avoiding command central planning. However, the GND seems to avoid nationalizations, while emphasizing a major expansion of rhe social safety net, along with some fairly strong command elements laregely tied to its Green environmental part, arguing that mere market forces will be insufficient to move the US economy off its current fossil fuel base soon enough.

Which brings us to generic socialism and the still not described Nicolas Maduro, President of Venezuela. He is loudly describing himself a socialist, but what form, if any, is unclear. But his economy is the biggest current economic disaster on the planet, so his ongoing claims of being a socialist are damaging the label, as seen in the eagerness of conservatives to identify socialism with him and denounce people like Bernie and AOC and all the Dem prez candidates signing onto the GND even before they knew what was in it, with this exemplified by Trump ranting loudly on this theme during his SOTU.

Looking closely it seems that indeed Maduro and Chavez before him, who preferred labeling the system "Bolivarianismo" rathet than "socialism," did carry out portions of various of the forms of socialism. Many firms were narionalized, with currently the number of privately owned firms about half of what there were 20 years ago (when Chavez was elected), although many of those original firms have simply disappeared. About 20% of farmland was nationalized, mostly large-scale latifundia, supposedly to be turned over to landless peasants. But much of it has simply come to be uncultivated by anybody. In any case, there remain large portions of the economy privately owned, with still wealthy owners living in gated communities and not suffering.

Perhaps the most damaging of the socialist policies have been scattered efforts at command, not based on any central plan, especially using price control. In agriculture this has been a complete disaster, especially once hyperinflation hit. Food production has collapsed, and lack of food has driven 3 million out of the country, with many still behind having lost much weight. OTOH, the regime is supposedly being green by emphasizing traditonal local crops. But this is not even a joke. Bolivarianismo's main positive was its popular redistribution policy, which increased real incomes in poor areas, especially while Chavez was in power, borrowing from the social democracy model.

The problem here is that all of these things, even many oof them together, have been recently tried in neighboring nations, such as Bolivia, without simialrly disastrous results. Somehow Venezuela has just completely blown apart, with reportedly 86% of the population now opposed to Maduro and people in the poor neighborhoods of Caracas who were the Chavismo base now out demonstrating in large numbers (and being violently suppressed) after Maduro got reelected in a clearly fraudulent election, with most of his neighbors calling for his removal.

I think two things not related specifically to socialism have played crucial roles here: corruption and hyperinflation. The most important agent in the Venezuelan economy is the state-owned oil company, which was nationalized long before Chavez came to power. But he, with Maduro made this worse later, fiirng the competent technocratic managers of that company and replacing them with political cronies, with the outcome being a serious decline in oil production, this in the nation with the world's largest oil reserves. Which leads to the other problem, massive corruption, with the incompetent cronies at the top of the state-owned oil company the worst. The other killer item has been the hyperinflation, whose source I do not really know, although Venezuelan tax rates are lower than those in the US. Certainly part of it is massive budget deficits, and as the MMT people note, they were borrowing from abroad. I do not fully understand all involved in the hyperinflation, although that is not a standard phenomenon in a full-blown command socialist economy, but the hyperinflation has clearly been the final killer of the economy, collapsing support for Maduro. Apparently about a third of the population still supports "socialism," while many of those people reject Maduro, claiming he has blown what Chavez implemented, which Maduro certainly has.

So, for a summary. Command socialims a la the DPRK is an awful diasster, famine plus dictatorshiip. Market socialism/socialist market economy a la China has been good at rapid economic growth and much else, although suffering many ills on the environment and income distribution, not to mention alo being dictatorial. Social democracy a la Swden and Denmark has done as well as any economic system on the planet and is democractic and free, but has also suffered from various problems. The "democratic socialsim" of certain American politicians remains poorly defined and is in danger of being tied to the disastrous and vaguer form of "socialism" happening in Venezuela, with the danger for US politics being that conservatives may actually succeed in tying this pooerly defined democratic socialism with the barely socialist disaster in Venezuela.

Personally, I wish that Maduro would stop calling himself a socialist. Then he should also resign and get lost for the good of his people ASAP, although I do not support overdone US efforts by sanctions or possible invasion to bring this about. Let it be the Venezuelan people who remove him, however.

Barkley Rosser

https://econospeak.blogspot.com/2019/02/who-is-really-socialist.html

Also at: https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/02/who-is-really-a-socialist.html

#Socialist #Venezuela #China #Germany #UnitedStates

Comments 1 - 32 of 32        Search these comments

1   AD   2019 Feb 15, 7:51am  

The Chinese Military is the largest socialist program, not the US Military.
2   porkchopXpress   2019 Feb 15, 7:54am  

Too long, didn't read.

Stop trying so hard to make Socialism cool.
3   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 7:59am  

Gee, who knew the British were Socialist in the Napoleonic Wars, with their Navy and Army.

Napoleon, the Tzar, the Prussians of the 18-19th Century, all Socialist because they had an Army.

Or the Sailor's Penny for the RN Greenwich home for Sailors in the 18th/early 19th, rudimentary disability scheme, so Socialist.

Silly!

You know, they also had poor houses stretching back into the Renaissance - proof the British Empire was SOCIALIST!

Sometimes Nobles and the Kings sponsored artists and scientists with patronage - SOCIALIST! The Medicis - SOCIALIST!

Give it a rest.
4   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 8:00am  

To the respondents who have lovingly obliged to bump my thread even though they are on ignore.

Muuaaahh - love it, love it, looovvee it ! You guys are swell.

By the way that's one spiffy new handle to the respondent from Jersey. How many aliases are we up to now ? I'm losing count

5   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 8:00am  

MisterLearnToCode says
Give it a rest.


Not going to happen - by the way did you like the image ? Really sums things up nicely don't you think ?
6   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 8:03am  

Kakistocracy says
Not going to happen



Just saying, it's ridiculous to call Veteran's support programs, the Military, Roads, etc. "Socialist" since all these things prefigure Socialism by millenium.

Seen in Merchant Republics like Venice and Genoa, in Absolutist Monarchies like Russia, in Constitutional Monarchies like the 18th Century UK and everything in between. Calling them Socialist is not even a stretch, but either ignorance or mendacity.

Socialism is about most or all of the Economy being under Government Control. No whether there is a National Army or Government Support of Research or the Arts.
7   Bd6r   2019 Feb 15, 8:03am  

Perhaps the biggest issue is state control and ability of state to force its idiocy on population. AOC is a "statist" bigly, to the point that she is worse than Bush and Obama. Green deal is an example of how she would push her ideology on everyone, with potentially disastrous economical results.

I do not know how to avoid state legislating how we want to live - perhaps more local control would solve this. Have Fed Gov deal only with military, foreign policy, and immigration. Everything else should be controlled by local communities, and most taxes should be collected and used at local level. If AOC constituents in NY want a "Green Deal", they can prohibit themselves form having IC cars/trucks and tax themselves to death. If SF wants to legalize mass gay weddings, they should be able to do that also. If AL voters want to prohibit teaching anything other than Bible in schools, they should be able to do it...and should then face the consequences THEMSELVES.

Edit: "socialist" is a misnomer in a sense. Bush was a socialist worse than Clinton, even though he was to the right of Clinton. Medicare part Whatever is as socialist as it gets...and is an example of state forcing itself down the throats of people.
8   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 8:04am  

MisterLearnToCode says
Socialism is about most or all of the Economy being under Government Control


And what do we have now ?

My bad - Wall Street Control, Big Oil Control and dare I say it - entirely way too much input from Israel and the House of Saud

OMFG - I said something bad now about Israel - I'm an anarchist
9   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 8:06am  

Kakistocracy says
And what do we have now ?



Does the government set how many chocolate chip vs. Oatmeal cookies shall be produced?

How many size 11 Leather Boots, Black, Knee-High?

The size and type of Font used in Personal and B2B Emails?
10   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 8:07am  

MisterLearnToCode says
Does the government set how many chocolate chip vs. Oatmeal cookies shall be produced?

How many size 11 Leather Boots, Black, Knee-High?

The size and type of Font used in Personal and B2B Emails?


Getting closer each and every day - patience, it will be here soon enough
11   RWSGFY   2019 Feb 15, 8:38am  

Elgatouno says
Maybe this whole socialism angle is to keep us fighting amongst ourselves?


So these are the intentions of Bernie, OAC and their ilk. Good to know.
12   NDrLoR   2019 Feb 15, 8:43am  

d6rB says
Medicare part Whatever is as socialist as it gets...and is an example of state forcing itself down the throats of people.
So is the public school system, not one degree different from what would exist in the Soviet Union, and they always teach to the lowest common denominator. That's why private schools outperform them and teach to the highest common denominator. In 1966, four years before my mother retired after 46 years of teaching, in the first year of the Great Society, a program was announced that would serve free breakfasts in the schools. My mother had taught with her principal Mr. Griffin at various schools since the 1940's and had tremendous influence on him and she persuaded him not to offer the program at the high school where she had been librarian since 1954. There was a huge controversy about it but like she said, the parents are supposed to feed their children, not the state.
14   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 9:57am  

Elgatouno says
Is anyone saying they want to have the government control the factors of production?


Well...


Kakistocracy says
MisterLearnToCode says
Does the government set how many chocolate chip vs. Oatmeal cookies shall be produced?

How many size 11 Leather Boots, Black, Knee-High?

The size and type of Font used in Personal and B2B Emails?


Getting closer each and every day - patience, it will be here soon enough
15   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 10:24am  

MisterLearnToCode says
Well...


That's why it's called patience.

In case you missed it first time around - here it is again.

Something our adversaries have in surplus but which is in extremely short supply here in this country.



All in good time, all in good time - by the way it won't be socialism either....
16   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 1:28pm  

Heraclitusstudent says


"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.

“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

In fact, Denmark is near the tops for ease of doing business.
17   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 1:30pm  

There are some decent articles out right now covering Sweden's model as well.
18   RC2006   2019 Feb 15, 1:38pm  

Those models will all fail from immigration. The citizens that setup all those safety nets and programs did so for the good of its future generations, not somebody else's to come in and swoop up.
19   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 1:56pm  

RC2006 says
Those models will all fail from immigration. The citizens that setup all those safety nets and programs did so for the good of its future generations, not somebody else's to come in and swoop up.



Sweden's will, but Denmark's won't.

Danes are smarter. Did you know Denmark confiscates jewelry and cash from refugees excepting only wedding rings or heirloom items up to a certain dollar amount? ( @Curious2 )

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-jewellery-law-migrants-refugees-asylum-seekers-unhcr-united-nations-a7113056.html

No more Omars and Rashida Talibans wearing $10,000 in silver bangles and jewelry carrying $5,000 USD Cash, demanding asylum in Denmark.

After all, if you're a refugee fleeing for your life, you certainly don't care about thousands in jewelry for safety.
20   Ceffer   2019 Feb 15, 2:10pm  

All good things come from Socialism. That's why they call it The Great Socialist Paradise. All bad things come from every other fucked up, fascist, unkind, heartless, bestial, selfish ideology. It's all about the milk of human kindness, with the production pie split equitably and fairly: 95 percent for the socialist central planners, and 5 percent for the free shit fucks who voted for them.
21   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Feb 15, 2:35pm  

The Yellow Jackets, mostly real working class people, don't seem very happy in Socialist France.
22   RWSGFY   2019 Feb 15, 2:56pm  

MisterLearnToCode says
The Yellow Jackets, mostly real working class people, don't seem very happy in Socialist France.


Judging by their "demands" they want to pay less taxes AND get more free shit.
23   Ceffer   2019 Feb 15, 2:58pm  

According to the American Corporate News Media, the Yellow Jackets don't exist, so therefore, THEY ARE NOT!
24   NDrLoR   2019 Feb 15, 3:03pm  

Ceffer says
All good things come from Socialism
Really? What system gave us Thunderbirds, Chrysler 300's, Rivieras, Toronados, Eldorados, Imperials? Sarcasm of course.
25   Ceffer   2019 Feb 15, 3:04pm  

The Great Socialist Paradise gave me a slant 6 Plymouth. What more could I ask for?
26   curious2   2019 Feb 15, 4:56pm  

MisterLearnToCode says
RC2006 says
Those models will all fail from immigration. The citizens that setup all those safety nets and programs did so for the good of its future generations, not somebody else's to come in and swoop up.



Sweden's will, but Denmark's won't.

Danes are smarter. Did you know Denmark confiscates jewelry and cash from refugees excepting only wedding rings or heirloom items up to a certain dollar amount? ( @Curious2 )

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-jewellery-law-migrants-refugees-asylum-seekers-unhcr-united-nations-a7113056.html


This is a crucial point that most on the left refuse to acknowledge, which makes me wonder whom they are really working for. You can have many public benefits, even a generous welfare state, IF YOU HAVE BORDER CONTROL. If you do not have border control, or if you import a population of hostile invaders with a high birth rate, then your welfare state will be swamped and destroyed. Everything that all prior generations worked to build, from the founding visionaries who risked everything for liberty, to the labor organizers who risked their lives for better working conditions and a living wage, will be given away or lost to hostile invaders.

Almost all of the most miserable countries on earth have Muslims majorities. They are miserable because of Islamic dysfunction. Check any list of the happiest (and least happy) countries: the correlation is much too strong to attribute to anything else.

Even in Christian countries that are suffering, e.g. Mexico, a major reason is that high birth rates cause the labor supply to grow more quickly than the capital stock. As a result, they face a chronic shortage of resources relative to population, and a chronic surplus of labor driving down wages. They export labor, in the form of migrants, basically renting out their working age population in exchange for remittances. Due to the high birth rates, every year a whole new crop of aspiring workers enters the labor force, driving down wages relative to capital.

Religiosity correlates very strongly with high birth rates. In the Abrahamic religions, religiosity tends to drive directly the high birth rates, via the command to "be fruitful and multiply" and the Catholic prohibition on contraception.

Muslims tend to be much more religious than non-Muslims. Praying 5x/day from childhood has that effect. The more people invest in a doctrine, the more committed to it they become. And Islam is fundamentally hostile to western liberty.

I can see both sides of the American immigration debate. If you import Latin Americans, they do tend to drive down wages in the sectors where they compete, but that increases the standard of living for people in other sectors. For example, a public school teacher can hire a maid or gardener, or both, because the teacher does not face competition from illegal immigrants, but the maid and gardener do. The consequences are mainly economic because Latin Americans are not generally hostile to western liberty.

In contrast, the European migration debate raises existential challenges. Importing Muslims can drive down wages in some sectors (if the Muslims work instead of only collecting jizya in the form of benefits or crime/extortion money), AND it also threatens western liberty as a whole. Moreover, Europe has plenty of labor in eastern Europe, Spain, etc. There is no need to import Muslims. As Nassim Taleb wrote, by importing Muslims, the west is "committing suicide." The only explanation I can think of is Petrodollar hypnosis.
27   WillPowers   2019 Feb 15, 5:03pm  

What bothers me about socialism is not socialist bureaucracies if you want to call them that, but socialist group think, curtailing our right to free speech, first in the work place then in society, or socialist policies that want to curtail the right to bare arms and own a gun, transferring all the power to the government, which will act like a mafia protection racket if the people are powerless to defend themselves. These are the kind of things that work against a truly free society, not whether or not you have a post office or social security. So some socialist programs work to help the people and some end up making your country a fucking prison.

Will Powers
28   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 5:09pm  

WillPowers says
curtailing our right to free speech


Like Duterte arresting one of his biggest critics ?

MANILA, Philippines (AP) — The award-winning head of a Philippine online news site that has aggressively covered President Rodrigo Duterte’s administration was arrested Wednesday by government agents in a libel case.

https://apnews.com/a9e6c3b9165947ad8d4573deb5e4455d

Murdering Kashoggi ?

That's group think as well - not just socialist group think though
29   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 5:11pm  

Ceffer says
The Great Socialist Paradise gave me a slant 6 Plymouth


Didn't think anyone remembered the Slant 6 or Plymouth
30   Ceffer   2019 Feb 15, 5:21pm  

Kakistocracy says
Didn't think anyone remembered the Slant 6 or Plymouth


How about a Rambler? That's a real fossil-mobile.
31   anonymous   2019 Feb 15, 5:35pm  

Ceffer says
How about a Rambler?


Everyone I knew who drove one was eccentric in some fashion. Ride wasn't bad and they had a few versions including wagons.

They seemed like midget versions of Edsels when is came to ugliness but nothing can take the ugly crown away from the Pontiac Aztec which also has the distinction of being one of the worst cars overall just edging out the Yugo.

Before going out of business American Motors also produced the awesome and grossly underrated AMX.

The AMX was also the only American-built steel-bodied two-seater of its time

Fitted with the optional high-compression medium block 390 cu in (6.4 L) AMC V8 engine, the AMX offered top-notch performance at an affordable price.
32   HeadSet   2019 Feb 15, 6:06pm  

How about a Rambler? That's a real fossil-mobile.

I had a couple friends who owned old Corvairs. Rear engine air cooled Chevys. One guy's dad even had a Corvair Van/Pickup.

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