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Chiropractors... For or against?

By joshuatrio following x   2019 Mar 27, 4:40pm 965 views   33 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


What are your thoughts on chiropractors?

I grew up in a household where it was preached that they were a bunch of quacks and did more harm than good and that physical therapy was always the best and safest option.

Fast forward 36 years later and I've been dealing with a terrible time sleeping due to neck/shoulder pain, as well as numbness on the right side of my body - right hand and foot. No prior medical history or sign of illness (stroke etc..) This all has been going on a couple of years.

In 2017-2018, I go the conventional medicine route and spent a few grand on 2-3 MD's, a neurologist, physical therapy, MRI's, MRA's, CT scan etc... This was over the course of 6 months. Absolutely no results. It was pretty damn discouraging when you feel like shit, but everyone tells you you're fine.

2019 comes and I decide to try a chiropractor - I figure it's the last resort. First visit, they took xrays and told me I had moderate scoliosis and something else. They said the numbness was likely a pinched nerve and sciatica.

I'd never been adjusted before, and let me just say that the sound of your neck and back cracking is something I don't think I can ever get used to. They adjusted me the second and third visit.

However, after JUST two adjustments, I'm sleeping like a rock, the shoulder/neck pain is almost gone, and the numbness in my right hand and foot is COMPLETELY gone. This was TWO WEEKS ago.

Un-freaking-real. Total cost? $25 for each visit ($75 so far). Compared to the thousands I spent on traditional medicine who declares chirpractic quackery.

I'm a fan.

My thoughts? Traditional medicine doesn't like chiropractic because it's CHEAP and it WORKS. Where traditional medicine likes to treat the symptom, chiropractic often treats the problem.

Hell, physical therapy was billing my insurance $460 per visit... Just so I could lift a few weights and do bullshit exercises that did nothing - and yes I did them at home too.

Granted without chiro maintenance adjustments, or retraining/strengthening your muscles you'll likely develop the same problems again and have to go back .. but damn, for $25???

Anyhow, it beats popping pills, getting more scans, and seeing more specialists. Literally 15 minutes on the chiro table has done wonders for my health. I'm not saying a chiropractor is always the answer, but I look at them as legit healthcare providers now.

Whadda you guys think?

1   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 4:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Been adjusted 3 times total in my life, and that was about 4-5 years ago. I received great information from him. Checked and found that one leg was ever so slightly shorter than the other, could be adjusted with an insole. Gave me ten different stretch exercises to do each morning when I wake up. I did them religiously for the first month and a half, then I was feeling great and I slacked off. Whenever the issue flares up again, I start doing the exercises and am able to get it to go away, or I need a new insole as the old one compressed too much. Speaking of which, I need to get off my ass and start doing them again...
2   clambo   ignore (4)   2019 Mar 27, 5:02pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They are quacks who are practicing nonsense.

Frequently they squeeze people's necks and cause strokes from pressure on the carotid artery. People have died.

A chiropractor told my friend's young daughter that she could treat her diabetes. How? By adjusting something?
3   rocketjoe79   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 5:14pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I consider myself pretty scientific, but I do go to my chiro. I’ve had two great ones and one terrible one.
4   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 Mar 27, 5:16pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

If you got a good masseuse you can get the same thing.
I've dealt with one that did me good when my lower back was out, he also did my wife's back when She was having problems.
I ran into one in a Home Depot entrance years ago that had a portable spine imagery.
He showed me a point in my neck that he said was misaligned. He then pressed on it, and it hurt like hell. I thanked him and moved a long but refused his services.
I had a chronic pain, stiff kink in my neck for about 3 straight years after that. I was fine before that dude fucked with it.

Basically if you know of a good Chiropractor and get good results go to them. Avoid those Booth Chiropractor salesmen at all cost. Never let them lay a hand on you.
If they were worth a fuck they would be back at the office taking care of their trusting patients.
5   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2019 Mar 27, 5:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
If you got a good masseuse you can get the same thing.


This is the correct answer. The key is finding a therapist that specializes in Medical Massage, not spa type massages. Many Chiros work together with these type of therapists.

I've had back/neck issues for decades. I go to a therapist once a week to keep me moving. She does a combo treatment (kinda like physical therapy, chiro and massage) all together. It took her a while to figure out what was going on, but once she figured out all the trigger areas for pain, I get amazing results. I've been seeing her for over 9 years. I take no pain medication.

If it wasn't for her working on me weekly, I'd either be gorked out on pain medication or in a wheelchair. Instead, I can mountain bike, play all types of sports, and even beat the wife.... oops..
6   Booger   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 27, 6:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

joshuatrio says
Un-freaking-real. Total cost? $25 for each visit ($75 so far). Compared to the thousands I spent on traditional medicine who declares chirpractic quackery.


Did that include the cost of the X-ray?
7   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 27, 6:19pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

clambo says
Frequently they squeeze people's necks and cause strokes from pressure on the carotid artery. People have died.


I don't know a single person that's ever actually happened to. But let's say it has. Have you compared the numbers to people who have died from taking prescription medication, exactly as the doctor advised them to? From what I've heard there's no comparison. So who's really the quack?
8   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 6:40pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

My experience was kind of like joshuatrio's.

back in the day, a roommate of mine had a friend whom I became well acquainted with, who was a student at Palmer. He had been a software engineer, saved his money, quit and enrolled at Palmer at about age 40. He said it was a more manageable and doable mid life career change for him, than some other path in the healthcare field.

The roommate aspired to go to Palmer, but was lacking in the prerequisites. (Her friend, who was becoming disgusted with his software engineering job, actually got the idea for chiropractic school, from her). *SHE*, not the actual Palmer student, was the one saying how chiropractic could cure all ailments like diabetes, bipolar syndrome, etc. Listening to her over a couple of years, I began to think that chiropractic could be quackery.

Till I slipped a disc way up on my spine, near the neck. "C-3" or "C-4" I think they said. Besides the extreme discomfort, over time I lost all feeling in my right arm. I still had mechanical control, but no tactile feedback at all. I stabbed myself with needles, didn't feel a thing. Didn't have the nerve to try to see if I'd feel it if I touched something burning hot.

Got the xray, you could see the soft tissue poking out between the vertebrae, pushing on a nerve. The docs said my choices were to live with it and pain meds and muscle relaxers (which they told me would be no problem for them to write prescriptions on), or, they could recommend surgery. (Way up high. If that got botched I could be a "quad").

It was only AFTER I asked my primary physician out of desperation, "What about a chiropractor?" Only then did he say, "Oh yeah, you could try that. Dr. --------- has his practice in this building downstairs from here. He's a personal friend of mine and I think he takes your insurance".

Instant relief. After a week or two, I got tactile sensation back on my arm.

I suppose if they say they can cure someone of diabetes or bipolar syndrome, I'd call it quackery. And maybe they're just doing physical therapy (During one of the treatments I told him I thought it seemed so, but he "corrected" me about that). Whatever. I cannot argue with the drug-free, surgery-free outcome.
9   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 27, 7:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Been going ever since someone flipped my car on the Freeway about 20 years ago. They do focus more on prevention, and are much cheaper, but just like any profession, you need to find a good one. And combining chiropractic with massage therapy is way more effective, since tight muscles will pull stuff back out of alignment.

I do believe in the body's system functioning as a whole, and good blood flow, which chiropractors aid in, will help you with other ailments as well.
10   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 27, 7:34pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The word is physical therapy with osteopathic adjustments.

If Chiropractors simply called themselves that, there would have been no issues.

For the most part, they work well with skeletal-muscular problems.
11   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2019 Mar 27, 7:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NuttBoxer says
And combining chiropractic with massage therapy is way more effective, since tight muscles will pull stuff back out of alignment.


Correct.

This is where the base of the problems come from. Muscles hold the bones in place. If nerves get inflamed, they trigger the muscles to contract in "protection" of the area, which results in puling the skeletal system out of alignment. A good massage therapist will get those muscles to relax and reduce the inflammation, which puts less tension on the skeletal system, relieving the pain.

It's a process that takes weeks and weeks, and can't be completed in only a few visits. There are multiple layers of muscles the therapist has to work down through, so you need to make a committment to go back for a bunch of treatments.

rocketjoe79 says
I’ve had two great ones and one terrible one.


and that's the toughest part, actually finding the good ones. That's the biggest challenge. I sifted through a bunch of therapists until I found the current one who was interested in finding the source of the issues, and wasn't just looking to make a quick buck slapping on some oil.
12   socal2   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 7:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I've been going to a chiropractor for the last 10 years nearly every week. It has been working for me allowing me to stay active surfing and running each week. Like others have said, you need to find a good one. My dude treats alot of sports injuries. I have friends who have similar lower back pain (herniated disks) that have had steroid injections, stem cell injections, surgery and fusion and they are all still in pain and sucking down Vicodins.
13   porkchopexpress   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 8:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I can't stop wondering what that girl's butt looks like naked.
14   ThreeBays   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 8:51pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I've had good experience with them. I was in .jp one time and was having some pain in my back from sleeping on futons which are very flat and un-compliant. My wife suggested going to a local chiro. I had a slouch from always working a computer desk job. They adjusted my back which TBH felt good, and the issue went away completely. I go to see them every time I'm in town... it's like $30 for 90 minutes of shiatsu and adjustment.

They also do acupuncture which I've had. Hard to say if that helps or not. They also do acupuncture to help with things like child behavioural issues, which sounds like quackery but some people sware by it.
15   marcus   ignore (10)   2019 Mar 27, 9:22pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

IT's been a long time, but I've had some good experiences, mostly a long time ago. You have to do research and or get recommendations. There are different modalities. There's something to it for sure - but it's sort of like some asian medicine, dealing with energy flows that are not as yet fully understood, but over the centuries some practices have been found that work. Consider meditation. For so many Millenia it's been practiced before science could support the idea that there is something there.

Do you really think there would be so many chiropractors, making a living at it, if it was 100% quackery ?

Like someone above - I believe in science, and I usually prefer things that are well understood and proven. But the truth is many things are not understood in that way. Sometimes there are therapies that just work. People have experiences with them. I've had some health issues (mostly again long ago but not completely gone), and found many alternative heath practices beneficial. Ultimately you have to take responsibility for taking care of your body.

THe modalities that I've had good experiences with, are "upper cervical" and "network." Neither of those are big on the cracking or crunching. Also, if you're interested, there is something called "bio geometric integration" that is a spin off of the previous version of "network chiropractic - or "Network spinal analysis." I prefer that one,.That is BGI.
16   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 10:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quacks.... Go get a good Thai massage. Also nobody here, 'slipped a disk'. When I was a pre-med one of my instructors joked: You'd be paralyzed. If you get one who makes you watch a video about how they can cure colds run for the hills.

Those who've, "been going for years", are doing so because eventually you do become addicted. By that I mean they stretched out your ligaments. Basically that snapping sound is both gas bubbles popping and ligaments snapping against your nerves. When the ligaments snap against your nerves they become numb and the pain goes away for a while. But you have to keep doing it and that's what I mean about that. With the right therapy you could have reached the same condition without the chiro addiction.

I've heard of chiros that don't, "snap" anything and they are probably good but are more doing PT/massage. Get a good medical grade massage or Thai if you can take it.

Backs are hard. Harder to deal with than the genetics stuff I do for a career. Not a lot of real options. I also get it I've had a wrecked back for almost 25 years. Schmorl's nodes, ruptured disks several times, have nerves growing in them where nerves aren't supposed to go, sciatic nerve pain.

Stay away from chiros they can eff you up.

I also have 2 good friends who became chiros. Not the smartest tools in the shed but they made a shit load of money at a very early age.
17   marcus   ignore (10)   2019 Mar 27, 10:26pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just_dregalicious says
I've heard of chiros that don't, "snap" anything and they are probably good but are more doing PT/massage.


Nope. I like massage too, although don't get it often enough. Completely different though.

As for Thai massage, it's good. Good stretches, but they sometimes try to do a sudden jerky stretch with legs to one side or the other that would crack my lower bck if I let them do it. I wonder if that had anything to do with your ruptured discs. I'm guessing you're not a good tipper ? Just guessing becasue of your handle.

You would have to try upper cervical or biogeometric integration to know what they are. But I get it. Being open minded isn't for everyone.
18   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Mar 27, 10:28pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

porkchopexpress says
I can't stop wondering what that girl's butt looks like naked.


This is why you need Rin Wah Law, where you're fucking so many hoes, that you've seen enough boobs and butt to last a lifetime.
19   mostly_reader   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 27, 11:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I had exact this chat with a neurosurgeon who turned massage therapist and naturopath because he moved to US being a bit too old to jump through all the reevaluation hoops. In his mid-60s, the guy is still strong as ox and does wonders with his hands. He really knows what he's doing.

By his account, anything that a chiropractor can do a good massage therapist can do as well. It would take a massage therapist longer (i.e. more sessions), but it would be safer. Massage therapy would direct your body to healing itself and stimulate all the right muscles to make it happen faster. It's safe.
Chiropractors take a shortcut. They adjust bones directly. Most times it works if it's someone who knows what they are doing, but sometimes it doesn't and consequences could be dire. The odds of that are non-trivial.

This is if the person (either trade, massage therapy or chiropractic) knows what they are doing.

If they suck, potential difference in outcomes is more drastic. Massage therapy: patient doesn't get better. Chiropractic: high risk of serious harm.

Sweet science of risk management should advice to opt for massage therapy, and expect longer timeline for recovery. Finding someone good helps in either case.
20   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 27, 11:38pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just_dregalicious says
Also nobody here, 'slipped a disk'.


B.A.C.A.H. says
Till I slipped a disc way up on my spine, near the neck. "C-3" or "C-4" I think they said.


just_dregalicious says
When the ligaments snap against your nerves they become numb and the pain goes away for a while. But you have to keep doing it and that's what I mean about that. With the right therapy you could have reached the same condition without the chiro addiction.


I go once every few months, but sometimes it's been as long as six months between visits. I go when I need it, not when some "addiction" wears off. If it was just about feeling good, I'd stick to smoking my home grown herb, which is amazing by the way.

just_dregalicious says
Not the smartest tools in the shed but they made a shit load of money at a very early age.


Good for them. My chiropractor inherited the business from his dad. In the past year or so he took over patients from a business down the street. The guy has to pay for six months of continued learning a year, has a full patient load every day, and still barely gets by. Doesn't help that he lives in California.
21   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 3:24am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

clambo says
Frequently they squeeze people's necks and cause strokes from pressure on the carotid artery. People have died.


I did research on this before hand, and the chances of stroke were something like .00000008% that it could happen. The odds were statistically higher that you would die from traditional medicine.
22   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 3:26am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MrMagic says


This is the correct answer. The key is finding a therapist that specializes in Medical Massage, not spa type massages. Many Chiros work together with these type of therapists.

I've had back/neck issues for decades. I go to a therapist once a week to keep me moving. She does a combo treatment (kinda like physical therapy, chiro and massage) all together. It took her a while to figure out what was going on, but once she figured out all the trigger areas for pain, I get amazing results. I've been seeing her for over 9 years. I take no pain medication.


I've considered switching practices to find a place that integrates both. Great advice.

It's good stuff. I haven't felt this good in like 3-5 years.
23   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 3:27am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Booger says


Did that include the cost of the X-ray?


Yeah, they take insurance. Co-pay has been $25 each time. Without insurance the visits are $40. And I think x-rays are $100.

The CT-Scan that I had last summer was $250 co-pay, and insurance was billed $6-7,000 (not a typo).
24   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 6:58am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just_dregalicious says
Also nobody here, 'slipped a disk'.


So many Smart-Asses on patrick's website.

The xray was ordered by the medical docs. They showed it to me to explain my situation and options (deal with it, with meds as needed, or surgery). One side of the disk was flattened a bit, sticking out from between the vertebrae, contacting the nerve. Their explanation was inflammation of muscle around that area to "guard" the nerve was also irritating the nerve, exacerbating the pain. In addition to the pain medication (vicodin), they offered a muscle relaxant prescription which was partially effective till it wore off. Other than surgery, I was offered access to those meds for maintenance.

My doctor forwarded the xray to his friend the chiropractor.

So many Smart-Asses. Welcome to what has become of the Cool and Hip Bay Area.
25   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 8:43am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

B.A.C.A.H. says
So many Smart-Asses. Welcome to what has become of the Cool and Hip Bay Area.


Yeah man I wasn't making fun of you. Just pointing out there is no such thing as a slipped disk. It's not medical terminology but people use it all the time. No big deal.

Sounds like you have a herniated disk. Good news about that is it's fairly easily fixed by surgery. I wish I had a herniated disk. It's sort of like the hang nail of back problems. Painful as hell but you can snip it off and it doesn't mess with the structural integrity of your back.
26   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 8:45am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NuttBoxer says
I go when I need it, not when some "addiction" wears off.


The first step to recovery is to admit you are powerless.
27   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2019 Mar 28, 11:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just_dregalicious says
The first step to recovery is to admit you are powerless.


Kidding again right? Or do you honestly believe someone who does something twice a year is an addict?

But seriously, when are you admitting your addiction to masochism? Or is it Vicodin? Oxycontin?
28   theoakman   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 11:26am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I suffered Chronic pain from age 22 to present. So much so that at some points, I couldn't stand up without pain setting in 15 seconds later. Been in and out of physical therapy at times. Most my recent physical therapists really worked on a complete body flexibility and strength combined with heavy massage using those scraping tools. It worked pretty well. That combined with yoga, and I am more flexible and durable than I was when I was 21 in many ways. I still get pain but I am able to work through it. It was never a muscular problem but always a nerve problem which has been solved by improving my flexibility. The 30 doctors I saw never picked up on that.
29   socal2   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 11:50am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

just_dregalicious says
I wish I had a herniated disk. It's sort of like the hang nail of back problems. Painful as hell but you can snip it off and it doesn't mess with the structural integrity of your back.


Me too - that way there would be an easy surgical fix.

Unfortunately, many people are like me with degenerated and/or bulging disks that put pressure and swelling on the nerve causing pain throughout the body. There is no easy surgical fix to this condition.

Instead of taking narcotic pain killers, I choose to go to a Chiropractor to keep my back in proper alignment and to improve flexibility.

I went from total agony, depression and immobility from my early 30's to virtually no pain and a super active lifestyle nearly 20 years later without surgery or narcotics.
30   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2019 Mar 28, 11:52am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

theoakman says
It was never a muscular problem but always a nerve problem which has been solved by improving my flexibility.


Do you think it was a posture issue growing up perhaps?
31   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 7:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

NuttBoxer says
Kidding again right?


Yeah dude I was just busting your chops.

It is definitely metaphorically like an addition just not drugs obviously. Case in point: I started cracking my knuckles when I was a kid. I write software now for a living. I have to crack my knuckles now or it just doesn't feel right and I can't type.

Difference is I don't have to pay anyone to do it for me and it's not going to break my neck or paralyze me.
32   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 8:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

socal2 says
I went from total agony, depression and immobility from my early 30's to virtually no pain and a super active lifestyle nearly 20 years later without surgery or narcotics.


That's great man! Movement is key. Interverebral disks don't have a blood supply to deliver oxygen and nutrients. Walking 2-3 miles per day compresses and decompresses them many time forcing oxygen and nutrients inside of them. That keeps them healthy. You can think of them like a jelly donut. Or a tire with jelly fill. In my case I ripped the steal belted annulus (tire) several times over many decades and nerves grew into them. Docs just call that 'inflammation' but it's really a lot more complicated than that.

The structure of the cartilaginous tissue that composes the annulus is pretty interesting. I'm going from memory on histology and cytology classes I had 23 years ago but at scale think of this:

A bunch of pipe cleaners snagged together. Now scale up one level and those pipe cleaners make a fiber - on a larger order of pipe cleaner that is snagged with other pipe cleaners. Scale up again and so on. Technically composed of Proteoglycans and Chondroitin Sulfate and some other crap I can't remember. If you rip that you have cells that migrate in and try to do repair. If they do it right your golden but if not you basically get mush. Mush that nerves and vasculature can grow into. At that point you're basically fucked.

That's why you can image a back and in one person it may look mangled but they feel fine. Another person might not look so bad but they are in severe pain. Here is a paper describing a technique that apparently didn't go anywhere:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2198898/

Basically they tried to kill those nerves with a neuro toxic dye called methlyene blue. It didn't work very well. A creepy thing about it is that before they do the injection they need to poke holes in discs above and below as a sort of 'pain test' to make sure they are getting the right disk! Beautiful way to fuck up the other discs. These days they are trying lasers and other stuff.

Like I said above. Backs are hard there isn't much available. I see all sorts of genetic treatments on the horizon for a plethora of conditions but back medicine is still in the stone age and looks to stay that way for quite a while.

Be careful! You healed right but you probably have week spots and if you rip or herniate again you might not be so lucky next time. Definitely keep up the activity. When you start to get old and slow down keep up a daily walking routine.
33   theoakman   ignore (0)   2019 Mar 28, 8:14pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
theoakman says
It was never a muscular problem but always a nerve problem which has been solved by improving my flexibility.


Do you think it was a posture issue growing up perhaps?


Most likely but it made every muscle hurt so I thought it was a domino injury effect

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