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Young guy, happy Civic owner, has no interest in upgrading or getting into an EV

By Rin following x   2019 Apr 1, 12:45pm 1,038 views   28 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


This is an addendum to the Nissan Leaf a/o EV thread ...

http://patrick.net/post/1322772/2019-03-01-rin-spoke-with-prius-owners-on-the-nissan-leaf

Ok, this fella bought a used 2005 Honda Civic several years ago when he was only earning $40K/yr for ~$5K. Since then, he's put in only $1K repairs and has had no issues with the car.

Today, he's earning $65K/yr from his 40 hour job (which is really a 36 hour week) and he's a Cisco subcontractor, billing out 8-16 hours/wk, for an additional $20K-$40K.

Long story short, despite now clearing $85K-$100K, he's got no interest in upgrading nor buying into the EV thing. He puts all of his unspent earnings into savings and investments. He expects to drive that Civic for some 12-15 years before swapping it for a newer one and even that, he's getting it used.
1   HEYYOU   ignore (30)   2019 Apr 1, 1:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"He puts all of his unspent earnings into savings and investments."
I sorta like having a few extra dollars.

2000 Toyota Tacoma here. Thing about old pick-ups is one doesn't have to worry about scratches & dings & loading to the maximum or impressing anyone. 3-4 year old trucks, the driver never really used as a truck,from snowflakes,old & young are my favorite.


This is for Rin: Fuck new vehicles! ;-)
2   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 1, 2:08pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

A $5k 2005 Honda Civic is a "transportation appliance," as are the lower-end electric cars. To this extent you look at cost of ownership and effort of ownership. The gasoline-powered car will have yearly oil changes (higher effort of ownership) but not need to be "refueled" every day (lower effort of ownership). The gasoline-powered car won't need a substitute if you're doing a 500 mile road trip, so that's lower effort too. Low-effort winner: gas car that you already own.

On the cost of ownership, the Civic is running well and gets good gas mileage, so, therefore, will be cheaper than upgrading to a new EV. Winner: Civic. But that's mostly just the general statement that a cheap used car running well is cheaper than any new car of any sort.
3   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 1, 2:35pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
But that's mostly just the general statement that a cheap used car running well is cheaper than any new car of any sort.


Not true, a used electric/hybrid car will probably need a full new train of batteries, some $3K-$5K , the same cost as a used Civic.
4   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 1, 3:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
Not true, a used electric/hybrid car will probably need a full new train of batteries, some $3K-$5K , the same cost as a used Civic.

Good point, although for someone who only needs a car with 25 mile range, a 6 year old Leaf with old battery might work out to be pretty cheap.
Question: does an electric car with old battery lose battery efficiency as well as range? (i.e.: I still pay $5 in house electricity to fill up, but now I only go 25 miles on the $5 instead of 70 miles.)
5   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 1, 3:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
Rin says
Not true, a used electric/hybrid car will probably need a full new train of batteries, some $3K-$5K , the same cost as a used Civic.

Good point, although for someone who only needs a car with 25 mile range, a 6 year old Leaf with old battery might work out to be pretty cheap.
Question: does an electric car with old battery lose battery efficiency as well as range? (i.e.: I still pay $5 in house electricity to fill up, but now I only go 25 miles on the $5 instead of 70 miles.)


But isn't that the problem? ... no one wants to be metered.

If this guy, who is based in Boston, does a normal daily commute of 35 miles roundtrip but then, gets a Cisco contract in Providence for a day or two, that's adding 90 miles (x2) for those two days.

Wouldn't this person be more concerned about arriving at his client site, on time, for two days back-to-back, than in contemplating his charge capacity?
6   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Apr 1, 3:51pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Think of a car/truck as a utility just like electricity, gas, water etc. - reliable and there when you need it, able to get from point A to point B in reasonable safety and comfort sans the need to make a statement about if you have "arrived" by what you are driving otherwise Sam Walton would not have run around in an old Ford pickup.

Old Sam had more $$ than most will ever conceive of having.

Buy what makes the most sense, new or used and what gives you the absolute best value for what you want to spend - not what the advertisers tell you need to drive to make your "statement" or your life fulfilled and complete.
7   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 1, 3:53pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kakistocracy says
Buy what makes the most sense, new or used and what gives you the absolute best value for what you want to spend - not what the advertisers tell you need to drive to make your "statement" or your life fulfilled and complete.


Ok, but as you know, this is about the whole EV craze and how that's suppose to change the world when EVs are expensive, need constant charging, and that charging stations aren't ubiquitous across the nation.
8   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (41)   2019 Apr 1, 3:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

That's a fuck load of cash.

Bet he regrets not bagging a death mobile at the police auction.
9   anonymous   ignore (null)   2019 Apr 1, 4:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
this is about the whole EV craze and how that's suppose to change the world when EVs are expensive, need constant charging, and that charging stations aren't ubiquitous across the nation.


Never got hooked on the "crazes" including the SUV craze. Not seeing a lot of charging station in these parts, the occasional EV and a Tesla now and then but not enough charging stations to make it the same as gas or diesel powered.

The problem is even worse for the proponents of Hydrogen fueled vehicles at the present state of development.

My big problem with the EV craze is the production of electricity to supply the usual needs, plus all the vehicles - again maybe some new technology will put all this to rest but for now fossil fuels (coal, natural gas) are the mainstays for electrical generation plus as you noted the eventual cost to replace the vehicle's battery.
10   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2019 Apr 1, 5:35pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Financially expensive cars are terrible to buy, pure waste, just like an overpriced house.
11   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (41)   2019 Apr 1, 7:13pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

With a little work, a 1972 Buick will run on coal and have plenty of room for the chicks to stretch out on the front seats, suck your dick and light your smokes.
12   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 1, 9:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
EVs are expensive, need constant charging, and that charging stations aren't ubiquitous across the nation.
.
I think it's better (at this time) to think of EVs as great vehicles for 10% of the population. These are people that own a home so that they have an easy way to charge, have a second vehicle (maybe the spouse's vehicle), and have a reliably-modest daily driving regime. While restrictive, those requirements are met by a lot of people! Let's hook those people up with a second vehicle that is electric first before trying to worry about forcing the other 90% to adopt electric when it doesn't yet fit their lifestyle.

If electrics become cheaper and can go 200 miles on a charge, then maybe EVs would fit 50% of the country. We can worry about huge adoption when those EV capabilities are available.
13   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (41)   2019 Apr 1, 10:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

EVs need 10 minute charging, 0-130 MPH in 3 second acceleration and gun mounts that can take the battering of M134 at full auto for hours at a time.

Otherwise, what advantage do they have over a police auction death mobile that costs roughly 1.3 cents a mile to maintain?

Especially if there is no room for chicks to slobber on your schlong while you careen through the streets blowing diseased invaders the fuck away?
14   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 1, 10:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
If electrics become cheaper and can go 200 miles on a charge, then maybe EVs would fit 50% of the country. We can worry about huge adoption when those EV capabilities are available.


Ok, but that's a long ways away from today. The way EV fans are talking, it's like any day, the EVs will replace the ICE.
15   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 1, 10:36pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
SunnyvaleCA says
If electrics become cheaper and can go 200 miles on a charge, then maybe EVs would fit 50% of the country. We can worry about huge adoption when those EV capabilities are available.


Ok, but that's a long ways away from today. The way EV fans are talking, it's like any day, the EVs will replace the ICE.

It's a long ways away, but we're also a long ways away from even the basic 10% adoption. Let the EVs roll on slowly. I'll gladly sit back and let the early adopters work out the kinks. As it is now (at least here in silicon valley where EVs are all over the place), the EVs aren't putting a crimp in my daily life.
16   joshuatrio   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 2, 5:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Lol, story sounds like me. I bought my used 2009 civic in 2010 and have no intention of replacing it for another 5 years (when i pass it down to my son who will be 16).

I use all my extra cash to fund new businesses and vacations.
17   everything   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 3, 12:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The grand illusion you say?

If the grid can take it, and once people figure out the savings on gas taxes, etc. by charging up overnight and running the EV's for that 60-100 mile commute, not to mention how far an EV will go vs. an ICE, they won't be able to buy them fast enough. The mainstream will really come once you can swap your own battery out and you charge your other battery up during the day via sun, while also discharging it the rest of the night into your home grid. It all came from the sun originally anyway. The trick is to completely cycle battery banks, and then recharge them completely. Eventually it will come down to batteries feeding batteries, feeding batteries, like we do with these little portable phone chargers, just isn't to scale yet.

Energy is just not expensive apparently, so free the carbons they say, (and the heavy metals and pollutants that come with them), besides, the world reserve currency is denominated in oil buckets and carbon makes the world go around (as we know it).

I also choose to drive old but not economy, just like most of the other commoners, and the older cars are pretty fun, one of them that I drive, you can just pound the shit out of it, and it won't break.
18   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 3, 4:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

everything says
by charging up overnight and running the EV's for that 60-100 mile commute


Those ad hoc assignments in Providence, means adding 2 days x 120 miles roundtrip, outside of a daily 40 mile average.

So let's not talk about the future and deal with the matters of today. Ppl need freedom on the road, not limitations.
19   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 3, 4:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
everything says
by charging up overnight and running the EV's for that 60-100 mile commute


Those ad hoc assignments in Providence, means adding 2 days x 120 miles roundtrip, outside of a daily 40 mile average.

So let's not talk about the future and deal with the matters of today. Ppl need freedom on the road, not limitations.

It really depends on the person. From a practical standpoint—for me—doing a 100+ mile unexpected trip starting from work would never happen because traffic is so bad in silicon valley during normal work hours that I would instead drive the short distance home home, wait until 8:00 PM, and then start driving using a conventional ICE car. I've once or twice picked a friend up from SFO airport during work hours, but I know that is coming in advance and would thus know to use the ICE car that day (plus schedule 2+ hours of time off during the day).
20   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 4, 11:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
using a conventional ICE car. I've once or twice picked a friend up from SFO airport during work hours, but I know that is coming in advance and would thus know to use the ICE car that day (plus schedule 2+ hours of time off during the day).


Ok, but isn't that basically having 2 cars or using a rental?

I mean the whole idea here is that that used Civic is 100% owned and thus, can make that trip to Providence w/o spending $35+ per day to Enterprise or Avis.
21   socal2   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 4, 12:27pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
If electrics become cheaper and can go 200 miles on a charge, then maybe EVs would fit 50% of the country. We can worry about huge adoption when those EV capabilities are available.


I already have that with my Chevy Bolt. I can drive nearly 250 miles on a single charge and I am saving over $200/month in gas/electricity savings from my previous lease of a mid-sized sedan.

It is the cheapest and most fun car I've owned or leased in the last 20 years. I am gaining loads of performance/fun and saving money at the same time. Oh, and it is apparently better for the environment which was my least concern when I was doing my research.

That said, my wife has an ICE minivan and I have a garage where I charge it every 2nd or 3rd night as needed.
22   kt1652   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 4, 5:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'm surprised sharp financial whiz like Rin would make sweeping generalized statements like that. A used Civic is the most basic transportation tool. SUVs wouldnt be such a rage if basic transportation was the only decision factor. I'd be called a cheapskate and worse , if I suggest my wife to drive one for her commute. Today, gasoline is $4 gal around Calif when I looked.
Why Rin hires a driver, if piloting his Accord is most economically astute? If one has a long commute, comfort and fuel cost become much more important factors than Rin's urban Civic owner example. EV excel in both, plus saving much time of refuelling and maintenance.
The more miles one drives annually, the more an EV makes sense, generally, if compare like-class vehicles. Generalized rule of thumb fail, miss the mark completely.
Will EV's save the world?
That's not a sincere question and you know it.
But we do know our exponential consumption of fossil fuel is killing people and the environment. Just because you don't see a smokey plume coming out of modern ICE cars doesnt mean nasty pollution is not spewing out. There is a huge but not obvious health, medical cost of widespread ICE use that is essentially a societal subsidy to the fossil fuel industry.
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/25/coal-more-expensive-wind-solar-us-energy-study
23   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 4, 6:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

kt1652 says
I'm surprised sharp financial whiz like Rin would make sweeping generalized statements like that. A used Civic is the most basic transportation tool.


Yep, used Civic wins cost-only comparison against pretty much anything (save for used Corolla and AF's police auction special bluesemobile).
24   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 4, 7:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

kt1652 says
Why Rin hires a driver, if piloting his Accord is most economically astute?


Didn't I already say this? My firm allows me to expense all livery service and thus, it's a part of my normal expense account. The Accord is sitting in my garage, in case I need to go out on my own alone.

kt1652 says
But we do know our exponential consumption of fossil fuel is killing people and the environment. Just because you don't see a smokey plume coming out of modern ICE cars doesnt mean nasty pollution is not spewing out. There is a huge but not obvious health, medical cost of widespread ICE use that is essentially a societal subsidy to the fossil fuel industry.


https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

As of now, solar/wind/hydropower is barely 16% of the electricity produced. The rest are mainly fossil fuels and nuclear with coal, the dirtiest of them all, at some 27+%.
25   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 4, 9:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
the dirtiest of them all, at some 27+%


ARLP is trending down and might be at a nice place to pick it up for dividends again soon.
26   BayArea   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 4, 10:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kudos.

When it comes to cars, I also avoid holding the depreciation hot potato.
27   kt1652   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 5, 12:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
kt1652 says
Why Rin hires a driver, if piloting his Accord is most economically astute?


"Didn't I already say this? My firm allows me to expense all livery service and thus, it's a part of my normal expense account. The Accord is sitting in my garage, in case I need to go out on my own alone."
-----

I see, "Let them eat cake, the unwashed should be content to drive beater Civics while we, the privileged class can be chauffeured to our clandestine rendezuous in luxury on expense account.
Autonomous vehicles is the equalizer and I cannot wait.
28   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 5, 9:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

kt1652 says
I see, "Let them eat cake, the unwashed should be content to drive beater Civics while we, the privileged class can be chauffeured to our clandestine rendezuous in luxury on expense account.


That's the point of having money, to enjoy experiences like being driven around, eating fine foods, boinking Canadian hoes, etc.

As for that kid, he's now earning $85K-$100K and doesn't care for the EVs. When he finishes his 7-3 day job, he's able to pick up contracting assignments and isn't thinking about charging stations. Instead, he simply drives to that location, whether it's near Boston, Providence, or Hartford. So yes, I'd say he's doing well because he's probably saving 50% of his income.

As for beater, has anyone heard of getting one's car detailed & re-painted, once in a while? If anything, I've seen '73 Chargers look practically brand new because someone put the effort into the upkeep.

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