patrick.net

Quigley says

Rin says

In his synopsis, the only fully licensed and experienced MA plumbers earning that, are ones who basically want only a 35-40 hour work week with full benefits. The rest, meaning the ones who pick up an overnight O/T or double-time weekend shift, here & there, easily clear six figures and even he earned $140K/yr for some 4-5 years while he was finishing up his mortgage.

Yep, that checks out. Electricians make great money as well. But if I were to change trades from cranes to something else, I’d go with elevators. Those guys make bank, and although the work has its ups and downs (heh) they always are busy.

It's because you can't outsource labor like that. If you are a good plumber, and can do trenchless, oh hell you can clear 200k+ easily too. I know one guy who makes about 5k a day revenue (he has equipment loans, so it's not all profit). But he's paying it all off nicely.

FortWayneIndiana says

It's because you can't outsource labor like that. If you are a good plumber, and can do trenchless, oh hell you can clear 200k+ easily too. I know one guy who makes about 5k a day revenue (he has equipment loans, so it's not all profit). But he's paying it all off nicely.

Ok, you answered the "how" part but my question was why do ppl study engineering, knowing that flashing high exam scores in control theory and statistical thermodynamics, doesn't lead to job security and lifelong employment?

We've got to get the illegals out of our Trades, they are killing the American middle class.
Our education system is chewing our misplaced tradesmen up and spitting them out.
There has always been to kinds of people. White and Blue collar workers. In recent times, our Middle class are all being squeezed through a White Collar funnel and the ones not cut out for it. Are coming out the other side unemployed or underemployed. While Illegal Aliens are doing our 6 figure trades, and earning the money to give those Immigration lawyers their scale pay. They then turn around and play like they it's all a Pro bono operation. But it's not, it's a well orchestrated Fuck job, with guaranteed Immigration cases with clients flush with cash. Or soon to be placed in high paying trade, that they will afford the Lawyer fees.

Just remember when you see those people at the ICE detention centers and the Commie Lawyers are crying for their release. They'll all be driving 2020 Ford king cab Trucks and building America's skyline by this time next year. If those lawyers get heir way.

Tenpoundbass says

In recent times, our Middle class are all being squeezed through a White Collar funnel and the ones not cut out for it.

Actually, a lot of ppl are cut out for it, however, that whole category of jobs are run by incompetent MBA-ologists, ppl can't do squat but take credit for other persons' work and throw them under the outsourcing umbrella.

Remember, most workers don't use 10% of their college education.

Rin says

Actually, a lot of ppl are cut out for it

No, I wasn't and still ain't. I'm a tradesman, that was forced into a White Collar career. I had the knack to comprehend computer logic programming.
And managed to get work based on that. But I took a pay cut for years until I started making what I was making before the Flooring before it was taken over. Basically going from being your own boss, self employed, filing 1099s tp a W2 employee answering to HR, that was huge adjustment.

After this gig, I'm done with programming for the Enterprise. It really is pointless. All of the late nights and the rush rush to make the latest and greatest thing. It's all just a staging point for the next CIO or Business paradigm to move it into something else.

Look at how many White Collar people got into flipping houses. Sure they did it for the profits. But many of them liked doing the sweat equity. There's a certain satisfaction you get from building something. You can't get in an office. I can go see a few Tile jobs I did 30 years ago, there isn't any code still around I wrote even 10 years ago.

Tenpoundbass says

answering to HR

There's your answer right there.

It isn't the idea that a person can't be either blue or white collar but once one puts on that white collar, then they're a bitch to some HR fantasy of how an organization is suppose to look and behave.

Realize, there's nothing wrong with being in an organization, provided that it's not dysfunctional and run by a bunch of MBA-ologists.

Rin says

Realize, there's nothing wrong with being in an organization,

I never said there was anything wrong with being a White Collar mindset. If I were, I would have better business adroitness, and would capitalize on all of my talents.
But then I wouldn't have those talents. Instead of obsessing about doing things right. I would be obsessing about having them done cheap and efficient.

Tenpoundbass says

Instead of obsessing about doing things right.

During my dad's days, that was important.

Tenpoundbass says

I would be obsessing about having them done cheap and efficient.

Actually, having that work sent abroad is today's thinking.

@Tenpoundbass

It seems odd to me that a person with your coding skills hasn't found an industry to strike it rich in. Well, maybe you have stuck it rich?

WineHorror1 says

It seems odd to me that a person with your coding skills hasn't found an industry to strike it rich in. Well, maybe you have stuck it rich?

I've got several goldmines. The problem is I don't have the proper management staff to procure funding for the digging tools and do all the business stuff, while I'm digging the gold out. So I keep having to get a job JOB to pay the bills. I'm trying to wind down from my current employment of the past 5 years, that served as a test case for a powerful multi tiered Enterprise platform, that can be used in countless ways. From integration to redundancy to quick data collection forms. Thankfully the new CIO is converting the whole company over to Netsuite. So every bit of integration I did in their current ERPs and CRMs will be deprecated, and I can remove my platform and take it with me. I brought it in with an understanding that it was just a temp solution, and it plugged right in. It saved months of development and integration, so I could focus on other software for their business in other areas. I know it works in high volume, and is fast and reliable. My hope for the future will be to bring it to market. Not everyone has a budget for Netsuite, SAP or Sales Farce.

I work with two electrical engineers, making my same pay scale. They both came over to blue collar for money, job security, benefits, and pension. Most of that isn’t easy to get as an engineer unless you either go military or oil.

Rin says

Ok, you answered the "how" part but my question was why do ppl study engineering, knowing that flashing high exam scores in control theory and statistical thermodynamics, doesn't lead to job security and lifelong employment?

I don't know why, maybe because it's what others are doing is my best guess. There is always a popular thing to do, and the right thing to do. Rarely those 2 are the same thing. Young people seem lazy these days, I don't see many who are willing to work hard. To make it as a plumber you have to make it on your own. Engineer is generally a 9-5 job, which has it's limits and salary caps.

I'm an engineer, and in my opinion...

Its all a lie

Being an engineer means everyone brings you the hardest problems

You bust your brain AND your ass and you don't make shit

You are taken advantage of at every angle, yet you are basically the sole producer

Your skills are not respected and you are not understood

Because you want organization, methods, and processes that are well defined, you are disliked

Holdover idea from 1950's when engineers had a stable, very well paid job while plumbers were less affluent. My grandfather was an engineer in 1930's and he was upper middle class while relatives who were craftsmen were coming to him for help

6rdB says

Holdover idea from 1950's when engineers had a stable, very well paid job while plumbers were less affluent.

Yes, I believe that this is a part of the problem.

I concur with ThatGuy but to answer the question a bit differently: It's not about the salary.

You have to rely on the stock options / success of the company.

I was a molecular biologist bench scientist and I did what my fellow mechanical/electrical engineers and physicists/chemists pretty much all do if they want to get ahead: I learned to create software for my niche which in this case was bioinformatics which was super new at the time.

I've made a few million in options at a few of the companies I've worked for. I've worked for 12 so far and I'm not a job jumper for the most part. Yeah, layoffs happen and it sucks but if you can boot strap you can do it so long as you stay on the bleeding edge of what is hot. So you have to pay attention and have good judgement and skill to predict the future.

So now ~20 years in I've got a fun career, invested the whole way through, have other revenue streams and am making ~150K excluding bennies. I've contracted 1099 for the equivalent of 240K/yr but I think I could have got more.

All that said I've been trying to sell my nephew on the plumber or electrician idea. Mostly because I think he's too lazy for that sort of tech but if he had some interest and drive I'd urge otherwise. Nothing wrong with blue collar it's our base. The world starts to fall apart when the garbage collector doesn't show up.

just_dregalicious says

You have to rely on the stock options / success of the company.

Here's the thing, many scientists and engineers work for established companies like Honeywell, DuPont, Raytheon, etc.

The idea that everyone can be on the ground floor of a next century's Genentech or Amgen is a lot like the Silicon Valley hype of Google and Apple being the norm for tech work.

In reality, the normal tech career is little more than an ordinary office job but with more computational tools instead of Excel and Powerpoint as it is for auditors, financial analysts, etc.

just_dregalicious says

ve made a few million in options at a few of the companies I've worked for.

This is why I'd left STEM for a hedge fund, to make real money.

just_dregalicious says

Mostly because I think he's too lazy for that sort of tech but if he had some interest and drive I'd urge otherwise.

You would be surprised. I'm one of the laziest bastards I know. It kills me to lift a finger around the house and do a damn thing, I procrastinate until the last moment when it comes to doing a physical task.

When I tackle a chore, I attack it in bursts of sprints. I always do an impeccable job and do it right, no half ass for me. But I take 4 times longer than I should.
Because I'll work on it, take a break, assess my next angle of attack, then take another break then continue, until my next break.

When I did flooring I was a dynamo, I could walk onto a job and not take a break until the whole 100 yards of carpet with 3 fully furnished bedrooms was done.
Some six hours later. It takes me a whole 3 day weekend to empty a room and put it back now. Way back then it was something I would empty out within 15 minutes of arriving at the job. Now it seems like this impossible daunting task.

The pay is a great motivator.
Also another motivator, the customer that had to take a day off from their crappy 9 to 5 job, reminds you just how good you have it.
My friend that is still doing flooring, still says I was the fastest Installer, that did a good job, he's ever seen.
Which is laughable for my daughters, because they don't think of me as work horse like that.

Many of the blue-collar positions require union dues and other leeching setups. That said, for someone with barely enough brainpower to make it into an engineering field, this would probably be a better career.

Another benefit is that these jobs are available all over the country. You won't be stuck paying off a $2MM shack in silicon valley.

Rin says

6rdB says

Holdover idea from 1950's when engineers had a stable, very well paid job while plumbers were less affluent.

Yes, I believe that this is a part of the problem.

The problem is that engineers are mostly meritocracy-adherents. They believe that the best ideas and the best people will be the most valued.
This is not the case.
The people who are paid the best are the ones who have the greatest leverage, whether that’s technological (nobody else can do it), personal (I have friends who ensure I make the best money), or cooperative (I join a union and negotiate jointly).
Engineers who are in unions do very well. They are a minority though. But collective bargaining would get them much better compensation packages should they decide to do that. The problem is that they don’t, while tradesmen do. Thus the tradesmen get better deals than the engineers, and some engineers give up the struggle and become tradesmen.

Quigley says

The people who are paid the best are the ones who have the greatest leverage, whether that’s technological (nobody else can do it)

That's what a few of my students do. Know production process well and do not tell anyone how to fix if something goes wrong. One jumped a job (from $ middle 100's to middle 200's) and now first company is begging him to come back at 300K so he can fix process they can not figure out. This works though only with engineers who are both extremely intelligent (most of them) and are savvy with people (relatively few).

Quigley says

The problem is that engineers are mostly meritocracy-adherents. They believe that the best ideas and the best people will be the most valued.
This is not the case.

In other words, unlike doctors, who know that they need a trade union (or guild) to protect themselves from PAs, nurses, physical therapists, and even biochemistry PhD postdocs from stealing their work, they believe that by flashing exam scores ... "yeah, look at my 97% on my advance control theory final" ... that somehow, that protects their line of work from automation or outsourcing.

Pathetic! Because that's no different from a high schooler's mentality than that of an adult. Seriously, how many grade school spelling bee champs became senators? I mean Al Gore Jr & John Kerry were 'C' students at Harvard and Yale.

Tenpoundbass says

You would be surprised. I'm one of the laziest bastards I know. It kills me to lift a finger around the house and do a damn thing, I procrastinate until the last moment when it comes to doing a physical task.

Yeah me too, partly due to a back injury. He just doesn't want to do shit but play video games. And he was thinking about being a band teacher because he sort of liked playing the trombone recently.

His grandpa gave up trying to teach him to mow lawns because he couldn't even sweep up the damn clippings from the sidewalk. Granted, my dad sucks to learn from because the military is stuck in his head and he acts like a drill sergeant but still.

Smart guy. Won a bunch of math competitions in high school. Just doesn't . want . to . do . anything . but . eat . and . play . video games.

Actually, he did change his major to computer engineering recently after he fixed something in his game console. I didn't have the heart to tell him that US is software and Asia is hardware.

just_dregalicious says

You would be surprised. I'm one of the laziest bastards I know. It kills me to lift a finger around the house and do a damn thing, I procrastinate until the last moment when it comes to doing a physical task.

Rin says

Ok, you answered the "how" part but my question was why do ppl study engineering, knowing that flashing high exam scores in control theory and statistical thermodynamics, doesn't lead to job security and lifelong employment?

Because they are being fed lies. I finished grad school in 2008 for Physical Chemistry. Not a single interview. Every chemical company in New Jersey shut up shop and moved to PA or Texas. I took a high school teaching gig in Chem and switched over to AP Physics 2 years later. Found out quickly, there is literally a massive shortage of physics teachers. 20 openings every year, 5 warm bodies to fill them. I gained a massive amount of leverage and was able to negotiate myself to the top by switching jobs. Unions make sure you can't renegotiate salary in district.

Plenty of times, I was put in meetings telling me there is a massive shortage of Engineers and Scientists. They have fairytale stories of NASA not being able to fill jobs. They were doing this to try to start some STEM academy within school. I asked them to show me any type of data that confirms there is a shortage of engineers. I also baited them into admitting that if there was a shortage, wouldn't they be paid more. But it was a lost cause. They are pushing some of the smartest kids in this direction under false pretenses.

As a teacher, sad to say, I make more money than all of my friends with PhDs in Engineering/Physics/Chemistry. 6 figure salary and can charge $100-$120 per hour for tutoring. The reality is, if I didn't have kids, I could tutor 5 per day taking home and extra $500-600 after hours. I usually only do that twice a day. Meanwhile, I have a lot of PhD colleagues from grad school hopping from job to job hoping to earn above $80k one day. I have consistently told the kids that if I could do it over again, I would just be a plumber for the exact reasons on this board. There are 2 good plumbers in my area and they are booked 3 months out. Both are making at least $1200 a day.

I think my son would make a great engineer. He is brilliant and building things. I am contemplating sending him to trade schools on top of his college as an insurance policy.

theoakman says

Because they are being fed lies.

Maybe people dont want to work w shit, and instead see technology as a potential path to cutting edge opportunities?

How many silicon valley plumbers are driving up home values?

Blue collar work simply isnt as intellectually rewarding either. Add in the skill and grit and even business acumen required to run a small business, and yeah plumbers making $100k/yr sounds reasonable to me.

Ya'll should talk to truckers, who can run a small biz w 4 trucks and make $500k/yr. Who do you think owns those 8000 sqft homes in the middle of nowhere?

CBOEtrader says

theoakman says

Because they are being fed lies.

Maybe people dont want to work w shit, and instead see technology as a potential path to cutting edge opportunities?

How many silicon valley plumbers are driving up home values?

Blue collar work simply isnt as intellectually rewarding either. Add in the skill and grit and even business acumen required to run a small business, and yeah plumbers making $100k/yr sounds reasonable to me.

Ya'll should talk to truckers, who can run a small biz w 4 trucks and make $500k/yr. Who do you think owns those 8000 sqft homes in the middle of nowhere?

For every person in silicon valley living high off of venture capital dollars, there's a person on the east coast earning 50k a year with a Chemistry or Engineering degree wondering why their glorious education didn't get them the opportunities they hoped for. The plumbers near me are clearing $150k to $200k easily. They make their own hours. If they want to take a vacation, they do it whenever the hell they want. It's definitely a good career path.

I watched people in NJ cure fucking diseases to only take home 80k a year while some jack off in the marketing department clears 500k.

theoakman says

I watched people in NJ cure fucking diseases to only take home 80k a year while some jack off in the marketing department clears 500k.

Team which developed a multi-billion-per year selling drug at One Large Drug Company in Rahway, NJ was fired in its entirety some years after the discovery. They were making too much, so HR/bean counters saved a lot of money by getting rid of them. WIN-WIN! Same company also axed the whole research center in Montreal, which was responsible for development of an oversized % of marketable drugs.

6rdB says

Rahway, NJ

That's one disgusting town.

theoakman says

For every person in silicon valley living high off of venture capital dollars

The pertinent point is that Silicon Valley doesn't paint a picture of tech, as a career path. Silicon Valley is basically the Hollywood version of tech careers, not the mainstream.

And as for my case, starting a hedge fund doesn't automatically mean having millions in the bank, a few years down the road. Sure, I had the right starting dozen and really, that's what made it happen, but for many startups in the area, they fail rather quickly.

So if my HF career failed during its 1st 3 years, chances are, I'd be trying to get a $150K-$200K/yr quant job at places like Renaissance Tech, etc, instead of working for myself. Still, that's a better option than being a loser engineer for the Fortune 1000.

And if even that failed, I'd look at the trades over engineering.

theoakman says

there's a person on the east coast earning 50k a year with a Chemistry or Engineering degree wondering why their glorious education didn't get them the opportunities they hoped for.

I think this is the industry version of the lifelong postdoc in academia.

theoakman says

The plumbers near me are clearing $150k to $200k easily. They make their own hours. If they want to take a vacation, they do it whenever the hell they want. It's definitely a good career path.

Absolutely!

Do note that plumbing/electrical work can be pretty hard on the body physically. Need to know how to take care of yourself. If you are white collar and have a physical disability, you can generally work through it just fine without impacting your earning power. Not so much if you can't get into crawlspaces and move around.

many reasons......many people don't like work hard and sweat, work outside and get cold or wet, get dirty, lift anything heavy, work at heights, crawl into tight spaces, crawl under a house where there are bugs and spiders, do anything they think might be dangerous, be called a blue collar worker, the list goes on...

Tenpoundbass says

You would be surprised. I'm one of the laziest bastards I know. It kills me to lift a finger around the house and do a damn thing, I procrastinate until the last moment when it comes to doing a physical task.

That's interesting...I have 2 brothers like that and have always wondered why they are like that...any insights would be appreciated.

komputodo says

That's interesting...I have 2 brothers like that and have always wondered why they are like that...any insights would be appreciated.

But I wasn't lazy at work when I did a physical trade, that's what's puzzling to me. Think of the most packed Dentist or Lawyers office you can think of, or the most furnished 10th floor Condo. I could move all of that shit, do the flooring and then put it all back, before the end of the day. And with the case of many of the Condos, they were Jewish buildings, and I had to be out of there by 4PM. I look at a room full of shit now and wonder how in the hell I did that, with just one helper.

As for insight, I often wonder if my issue is because, daunting chores was a go to standard for punishment from my Dad. If you were done with that, then he would tell you do something else. From tilling the 5 acres in the back, to splitting a cord of wood, to cleaning up my already cleanish room.

I recently had to create more space in the house, for our growing family. So I had to move my Man Cave/Office out to the yard. I bought a steel framed Shed, and had to dig a trench, run electric, ran xlr and speaker wires in the metal studs, drywall, finished, pained, and then had to do the flooring. I put Hardy backer, and then Ceramic over that.
Now I have to update the room I moved my crap out of and convert it into a bedroom. Plus update another bedroom. I've been busy every single week end, since April of this year. Started with knocking down the old shed that was there. Then had to cut down 3 Ficus trees, that made a pile of debris, about 5 feet high, by 8 feet wide, by 30 feet long.
I've been nonstop the whole time. Now that I'm done with the Shed upgrade project. I've got another few months of work to do around the house.