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Section 8 cutbacks


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2009 Jul 31, 2:13pm   6,232 views  27 comments

by elliemae   ➕follow (3)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12954022

With all the fiscal cuts, it was inevitable, I guess: 

"Despite receiving millions of dollars in federal stimulus money, many public housing authorities across the nation are being forced to reduce their help to the country's poor. In Utah County, that means 125 families will see the government subsidy of their rent disappear starting September 1.

In housing lingo, they've been "terminated."

Mary Dyer, a single mom who was just fired from her call center job, was floored when she learned the news.

Utah County is far from alone. Federal officials have been having what they're calling "triage" conversations with housing authorities nationwide. Several hundred are reportedly facing the same choice of eliminating clients, paying less per household or using reserve dollars.

Though other Salt Lake Valley agencies aren't in the exact situation that Utah County faces, they are feeling similar pressure.

In West Valley City, about 10 new applications for Section 8 arrive each day. The waiting list is now so long that it can take as much as four years to get a voucher.

With the economic downturn, the Salt Lake City Housing Authority is more frequently paying 100 percent of rent after people lose their jobs.

In Madison, Wis., the housing agency has begun contributing less to most clients' rent, meaning renters are paying more. The city council may step in with some additional funding, but it will take a few months to take effect.

"We're hoping people can hang on until some kind of rescue can be put together," said Tom Conrad, manager of the Section 8 program at the Community Development Authority for Madison.

Utah County is also hoping to find a solution, whether it's with homeless prevention dollars or through the help of another housing authority. "

#housing

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1   futuresmc   2009 Aug 1, 1:55pm  

Section 8 is for poor people, its very difficult to get, and once gotten, very difficult to use in finding places to live that will accept it. It bases itself on 'fair market rent' which is rarely anything near what the market is actually priced at, so that restricts things even further. If you are overrun by Section 8 neighbors in your area, you live in a poor area to begin with. With poverty comes gangs, drugs, and trash everywhere. If you don't want to live near section 8 housing, move to a low poverty area. If you don't have the money to do so, take a flying leap, cause the neocons you embrace so heartily don't want your povery striken butt near them. You'll bring down their quality of life.

2   futuresmc   2009 Aug 2, 11:56pm  

Firstly, you have a seriously warped view of who the poor are. Most are hard working people. Education, beyond high school, is expensive, and drugs are no more common among the poor than the middle class or the rich (the poor are just the easier target for arrest and prosecution because they can't afford decent legal representation and the government has to look like they are cracking down in their war on drugs). As for marriage and chastity, what does a person's sex life or marital status have to do with a person's need for housing?
You have this stereotype in your head of what a 'poor' person is, but I doubt you actually know any. Poor does not equal welfare recipient. Poverty strikes many groups. There are the working poor, the elderly poor, the disabled poor, etc.
As for your interpretation of Section 8, you are really off. Rental markets are no different than home sales markets, it's all about location, location, location. In many places, 'market' rents are way beyond what a person in a low income job (or 2, or 3) can afford and still meet their other basic needs like food and healthcare. Landlords know that housing is one thing that a person will go overbudget on when the only alternative is homelessness, so X% of their income becomes X+20% regardless of what the government says a person 'should' be paying for housing. Section 8 exists to make up the difference, to keep the amount at X% so that food, healthcare, and other necesities don't slide through the cracks. The fact that there are so few vouchers leaves many poor people paying X+20%, as they wait years to get in one, and yes, the landlords make a killing off desperate poor people, but aren't you neocons the ones who are always whining about capitalism needing to run without government interference? Don't the slumlords have a right to charge X+20% to a desperate person working 12 hours a day for minimum wage, in your free market world view?
Sadly, Section 8 isn't like some other government programs where having the right to participate will actually get you into the program. Most people wait for years on waiting lists, and many waiting lists are closed to new applicants until they clear their multi-year backlogs. In short, there aren't enough Section 8 vouchers to throw off the price of rental units, and the price paid to landlords on Section 8 is often slightly below what they could get without it. The value of Section 8 to landlords is the guarantee of payment. Nobody is late on the rent, and there is never a need to spend money on an eviction due to lack of payment. Landlords don't get gobs of money from Section 8 as you seem to think, but the money they do get is reliable.
As for your idea of public supported housing, great idea. The problem is there isn't nearly enough of it, and the few vouchers Section 8 provides doesn't even begin to make up for what is truthfully needed. Public housing, not affiliated with Section 8, wait lists far too many people, mostly in large and mid-sized cities, where the need is greatest. Building public housing units is very low on the agenda of most major cities.
New York City is really gonna have a problem in about 2-3 years when the 30 year contracts on the buildings the city leased for public housing use in the late 70's and early 80's come due, and even in today's real estate market, no private owner in their right mind would resign for another 30 years. They originally did so thinking New York was going the way of Detroit and Buffalo. They lost out big time on that gamble, but now they can get way more by going condo or selling to someone who can. There are going to be a heck of alot more of New York's working poor going homeless pretty soon, and the city will use the recession as an excuse not to build more low income units to house them. The city needs the low income workers to keep the city going, but due to the need to compete internationally, can't offer them a wage that will permit them to live in the city or any of its satelite cities, towns, or villages.

3   futuresmc   2009 Aug 3, 1:02pm  

The ignorance on this board astounds me. It shouldn't, but it does. The HUD website is free to look at, and is far more comprehensive than most government agency sites. Look and see what Section 8 is and what it's not. Your stereotypes of who uses Section 8 and how it's being used by these stereotypical groups is sliding into cartoonish. Don't just listen to Fox News or Mr. Limbaugh; investigate for yourself. You just might learn that what you've been told isn't what truly exists.
Bap33, it didn't occur to me that you'd find references to neocons offensive. However, much of what you're saying does fall in line with the neoconservative philosophy, so to paraphrase Jeff Foxworthy, 'you just might be a neocon'. Words like punkass and bitch, just make you look uneducated and common.
As for your insites on Merced County, CA, please post the link to that information. There are a dozen charts for different programs within HUD. As for a family of 3 being low income at $40,000 it depends on where they live and their individual circumstances. If one or more members of said family has a preexisting condition, they might be ending up 'low income' due to their health insurance payments and California's freaky tax system. As for HH's statistics, again, I ask for links (not to mention to know what the acronym HH stands for in California, being as I'm from NY and it's likely named something different here). At least you're motivated to do some research, not merely base your opinions on planted rumors from biased sources as many neocons do.
Let me reassurt, Section 8 does not drive up rents. There aren't enough vouchers to do so. Rents in large cities get driven up by those with the means to pay, paying top dollar. Cities like NY or Washington DC have limited space, and mass inmigration due to opportunities not found in other places. Disproportionately educated people with high incomes need housing and congragate in these cities. Immigrants pour in, many of them legally, to take jobs on H1B visas, and need housing while they work here. Wealthy foreigners pay rent for their little Emporer or Empress to go to college in the US, because our colleges and universities are still considered top notch. Then you have middle class people who pay 40, 50, 60% of their income just to get an apartment, and landlords knowing they hold the keys to the kingdom, do the rational thing, holding out for the highest rents and shutting out the bus boys who serve the above groups their Sunday brunch while sharing a one-bedroom apartment with four other people, an hour or two away from these metropolis', where the rents are still steep, due to their willingness to cram in together for the 'promised' opportunities of the city.
Finally, I don't need to be educated on all this. I live a few blocks away from a housing project. I ride the bus with three friends from the housing project every other Wednesdays to go grocery shopping, trading assistance getting to the supermarket in exchange for coupons I get online to help them stretch their budgets. I'm disabled, but am able to work from home part time. I've considered Section 8 so I don't have to burden my relatives as much, but have found it impossible to get onto the waiting list which has been closed for years. The same is true for disabled public housing.
Growing up, my mother worked as a nurse at a homeless shelter, one of those 'sleeping and showering centers' you would support 100%, while my father helped people on medicaid navigate the health care system at a hospital in NYC. Both my parents worked, but even then their work brought me into contact with what poverty in America is truly like. In a way it was a blessing. As much as I used to selfishly howl for my parents to join the free market and get jobs that offer two or three times their salaries helping the poor, going to their jobs on half days at school when my after school program failed to pick me up, taught me skills I use to this day to keep from ending up desititute. It also taught me to be greatful for what I have, and work to shatter politically convenient myths that hurt those worse off, who don't know how to get what they need.
AppleAnnie, most poor women who have babies do not live on government freebies, but work their butts off to feed those children. Inflation and the cost of living has far outstripped low income wages in this country for many years now. And it's not about feeling sorry, but seeing that the least of us has what they need to survive. You may want to punish that stereotypical woman for having a baby she couldn't afford, but you can't do that without harming the child first. I don't know your religious leanings, but I was taught that a true Christian is more concerned with showing compassion and giving a helping hand than punishing a sinner (or your definition of a sinner).

4   elliemae   2009 Aug 3, 1:28pm  

Section 8 didn't ruin the complexes, landlords don't have to accept it. Section 8 was designed to mainstream people so that they didn't suffer the stigma of public housing - stigma evidenced by some of the comments on this thread. Much of the time no one knows who is a Section 8 recipient, they suspect that someone is but that doesn't make it so.

The article says that the single mother was fired from her call center job - before anyone judges too harshly it's important to understand that those jobs often suck. They have unrealistic quotas - I know of a woman who was fired from Qwest for being $8.00 under her required sales for the month. The woman in the article may not fit into everyone's social circle, but she could be anyone of us at any time.

Futuresmc, not everyone on this board lacks a soul and compassion. We just got tired of being attacked because we have them.

5   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 4, 3:34am  

There will always be those that take advantage of the kindness of the American taxpayers (and all others for that matter). This is true whether it be a poor person abusing a government program for an extra hundred dollars or the CEO of Bank of New York Mellon Corp abusing a government program to pay out millions of dollars in bonuses. A couple of things we should note about these abuses. Abuse in the welfare program for the poor is illegal and occurs in a very small percentage. Example: In 2007, Alaska had 1059 fraud refferals, of which 664 were investigated, of which the Fraud Control Unit determined 409 to be fraudulent, of which 8 resulted in convictions with 1 plea, and 13 indictments pending. Abuse in the Bailout programs resulting in millions of dollars in bonuses for failure in the free market is legal and occurs in just about every non-failed bank that took taxpayer money.

Not only is abuse more rampant in bank corporations than among the poor, the dollar value of the abuse is higher among banks, than it is for the poor. While it is unclear about the motive for the abuse among the poor (i.e. greed or need), it is clear that the motive behind the bonuses is greed. Period.

Finally, for those that believe your tax dollars should not go to programs, like Section 8, to help the poor, I refer you to Jesus:
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, IN ASMUCH AS YOU DID NOT DO IT TO THE LEAST OF THESE, YOU DID NOT DO IT TO ME.’

Anyone care to guess how God will judge you when you tell him: "I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs." Anyone?

6   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 4, 8:17am  

@ Bap33

You still did not answer the question. Care to guess how God will judge you when you tell him: “I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs.”

BTW, Thessalonians does not support your apparent conclusion that Section 8 (or any other welfare program) should be eliminated because there are a few who abuse it. In fact if you read your quote in context, you are to directed to the opposite conclusion. First, you are to caution those who are not working in the name of Christ and have them work once they are seen. "Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread." Second, YOU are to still do good despite what these others are doing. "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing." Third, you are to shame the person and admonish him as a brother. "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

Again, because there are a very few that abuse the welfare program, that is no excuse to end support for the majority of those who are working and need the program. However, if abuse is found, then those found should be admonished.

Oh...my deepest apologies. I did not mean to imply that it is I who judges your soul. I am only attempting to help save it by showing you the path of Christ. Your soul's judgement will come from one who is far more important than I.

7   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 4, 11:09am  

@interpretame

So your conclusion is that Christ is not real. Presumably, that is the excuse you use to not answer the question. All people, including you, are entitled to their religious beliefs. So, how about I rephrase the question to avoid the atheistic approach to answering.

Care to guess how God would judge any Christian of the faith when they tell him: “I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs.”

8   Fireballsocal   2009 Aug 4, 1:30pm  

Ryan says

You still did not answer the question. Care to guess how God will judge you when you tell him: “I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs.”

You are assuming that only a few abuse the programs and that the majority of welfare recipients truly qualify. I am assuming that the thought of an easy paycheck is much to tempting to those content to live in squaller and that it is the minority of welfare users that qualify.

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with interpretame on his responses to you.

9   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 5, 12:28am  

@socialfireball

That a small amount of abuse goes on in welfare programs is not an assumption. Please read my prior postings where I pointed out the amount of welfare fraud in 2007 in one state.

@interpretame

So this is how you think the conversation would go.

God: We are here for your judgment. Tell me why have you not supported welfare programs to help the poor get food and shelter?

Interpretame: I could not support programs giving aid to the poor because there were those who would abuse those programs.

God: Did I not tell you, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Interpretame: Yes, you did. I even wrote it in a post as to what you would say to me.

God: So, if you knew that wanting to keep more and more money (tax money or otherwise) for yourself was not what I wanted and that I wanted you to help the poor get food and shelter, then I ask again why did you not support programs to give poor food and shelter with your tax money?

Interpretame: ??????
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He is a forgiving God. I beseech thee, ask his forgiveness. Tell him, before all of us, now how you would support welfare programs that aid the poor in obtaining food and shelter.

10   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 5, 3:00am  

@Bap33

If you consider being a follower of Christ's teachings a mental illness, I gladly suffer your barbs and curses. Since Christ suffered crucifixion to save my soul, the least I can do is suffer your taunts and still try to save your soul.

The full passage of Mark 11 that you quote from is: "And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

You complain about the "forced transfer of wealth." If indeed the government were forcing the transfer of wealth, you should render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and have more concern for what you are rendering unto God.

However, in a demcracy (even a republic), we are all a small part of the Ceasar and give some direction as to what Ceasar does with what belongs to Ceasar. In a government "of the people, by the people, for the people," we are all family, friends, or neighbors. Unlike the time of Christ where Ceasar was one man heading the government, we all now have a say in the government by voting and making our views known to our representatives.

Followers of Christ know that they are to follow Jesus' teachings in every aspect of thier lives. Thus, followers of Christ help the poor with food and shelter at the Church AND, by way of their vote and communication with their representatives, help the poor with food and shelter through their government.

Your business is to follow the teachings of Christ as best you can (assuming you are Christian). Here is Mark 12: Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

You are not to love your neighbor only when they come to seek help, but you are to love them as you love yourself. You should not fail Christ simply because there are others who have. Saying others have failed in their personal responsibility to Christ is no excuse for you to fail in yours.

Hence, supporting welfare programs for the poor to obtain food and shelter despite the fact there are a few who abuse the programs is fulfilling your obligation to Christ, despite the fact that the "abusers" are failing in their obligations to Christ.

P.S. I posted the Alaskan numbers for welfare fraud complaints, investigations, and convictions previously.

11   maxweber1   2009 Aug 5, 4:32am  

Section 8'er lazy butts are just starting to get the foot in the butt they deserve. If I'd have been 1/10th as lazy as these people my dad would have beaten my butt blue and put a shovel in my hand. Before any of you try to defend these lazy butts, please tell me how many years you spent trying to get them to work. I spent 4 years and nearly $80,000. Basically, anyone on government handouts is there because they are too lazy to work. Any one who tries to get them to work will lose their life savings like I did. Plain and simple.

The truth is like someone said above, terminate Section 8 tomorrow and by the end of the year factories and all sorts of enterprises will open in the USA. Over 40M people not including old SS and gov workers live wholly or at least partly on these lazy people programs. Imagine mobilizing 40M workers to work in our factories at a fair wage!!!

12   maxweber1   2009 Aug 5, 4:34am  

BTW, government gives away free houses to these lazy butts too. The message to our teens is clear: don't work. You can live better on handouts. (until it rots your soul and work ethic of course).

13   HeadSet   2009 Aug 5, 6:03am  

Bap33,

I retired from the AF in 1995, and during the rest of that decade I acquired 4 rentals houses to add to the one I had from a previous assignment (my former residence). None were slums, I would be proud to live in any of them. (They were comparable to the homes in Atwater that Castle officers lived in). I sold all but one as the tenants moved out during the years 2003-2005, since I was sure that home prices were about to crash, and the easy credit made good tenants hard to find. Everyone wanted to buy.

I have two points to make:

First of all, landlording ain't an easy way to riches. Even in the 90s, rents did not cover costs. The idea was that after 30 years of landlording, I could retire on the proceeds from paid off homes. One must work elsewhere in the meantime to pay the upkeep. It ain't an "investment" either, more like a part time job.

Secondly, I and others I knew, refused to accept Section 8. When I first got inquiries about Sec 8, I replied that my homes may be too upscale to qualify, but was quickly corrected. I did some checking, and found out indeed that Section 8 will provide enough "rent" to put a welfare mom with 4 kids into a newer 2,000+ sq foot 4 bed 2.5 bath 2 car home in a nice area. I still did not want to rent to Section 8, as the neighbors around my houses were working folk who took proud care of thier homes, and I did not want to drop among them a welfare mom who would be happy to leave the yard unkempt with a broken tricycle or two stewn about.

The "problem" at that time was not too few Section 8 "vouchers," the problem was not enough landlords wanted to rent Sec 8. There were plenty of people who could get Sec 8 if they could find a willing landlord.

I did know one retired Colonel who "specialized" in Sec 8. He bought up many very old 1,000 sqft ranchers and similar, did the minimum to them , and rented them Sec 8 out for about 30% above what well kept homes of that size/location would go for. Although his business was cash flow profitable, I want no part of it. He was a bastard with the correct temperment to deal with the "customer." I know some of his tenants were constantly asking landlords of nicer home to take Sec 8, since they were looking to trade up. The ones who came to me were all single moms who did not work.

Now, I have noticed a few Gospel folk expousing how Jesus would like those who support Section 8. That is amusing, as you are borrowing from the "Humanist" philosophy that one not need give charity himself if he votes "compassionately." I think your diety would be more impressed with what you did with your own money, not with your opinion of transfer schemes. A "Christian" would fill the food bank, rent out a home or two well below market to help a family in temporary need, or hire someone who needs a job even though the employer is fully staffed. Any old athiest can support Sec 8 to relieve his guilt about his own lack of charity.

14   HeadSet   2009 Aug 5, 6:34am  

interpretame says

TenPoundASS, you goddamn MORON ..tell it to RYAN who believes in all this crap …NOT ME. Geesh to hear you tell it, even reading The Cat in the Hat would be WAAAAAaaay over your head.

Really, interpretame? You read my post that used phrases like "[you] Gospel folk," and "your diety" and put the word Christian in quotes and somehow interpreted that I was a Christian. I would say your reading skills are lacking.

From your response, I must say that my comment on voting vs giving must have been spot on concerning you.

15   KashKitty   2009 Aug 5, 6:46am  

interpretame,

That list of conflicting scriptures is most impressive. I am currently reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman and your list is a case in point of why I am reading the book.

Did you research this yourself? I am interested because I would like to present it to someone who believes every word in the (king james) bible as "the word of God".

16   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 5, 8:24am  

@Headset

You are absolutely correct. A true follower follows in all aspects of their lives. Personally giving of their own time and money. Not only making donations to St. Jude's, but tutoring children at church, volunteering for Sacred Heart Community Service just to name a few. But, that does not alleviate the responsibility to vote "compassionately." By the same token, directing your tax money to compassionate causes does not alleviate the need to give of your own time and money directly.

If the subject of the discussion was what charitable contributions we make or should make, I'd gladly have that discussion. But, the discussion was on Section 8 and welfare programs and whether we should be supporting them.

@Bap33
As I said, I provided you with the 2007 Alaska data on welfare fraud. "In 2007, Alaska had 1059 fraud refferals, of which 664 were investigated, of which the Fraud Control Unit determined 409 to be fraudulent, of which 8 resulted in convictions with 1 plea, and 13 indictments pending. " And, as I said...few abusers.

17   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 5, 12:07pm  

@interpretame

You can convince religious people to change their views on how best to love thy neighbor with the use of SOUND research, logical discourse, critical thinking, facts and reason. You will not convince them to deny their religion, but rather how to go about putting their religion into practice in their daily lives.

But notice my emphasis on soundness. You will not convince any good Christian that taking a program providing food and shelter for the poor is good no matter how much you try to rationalize it by saying there are a few people who abuse it. Jesus proved himself to be a critical thinker and capable of logical discourse. That is why I put passages rather than selective quotes out of context. When you hear the quote "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's," by reading the passage and understanding how certain people were looking to entrap Jesus into the "either or" trap. You also see that he is able to avoid logic traps with his answers.

We'll continue to pray for your soul.

18   elliemae   2009 Aug 5, 12:34pm  

Tenpoundbass says

interpretame you goddamn Simpleton, the bible is a book ghost written by many Authors, Each with his own spin and take on the subject. Geesh to hear you tell it, God wrote it on a Rum binge.

Each time someone "transcribed" the bible, it was changed. There were no photocopiers, etc. Hell, it could have been a piece of fiction to start.

I believe in being a good person. But I don't believe that a bunch of people sitting around proving that they are holier than someone else is a worthwhile endeavor. If there's a hell, it'll certainly be more interesting than the heaven many people are peddling.

19   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 6, 12:47am  

@Bap33

I see. You recognize your error without stating so. You recognize that, at least in Alaska 2007 and assuming I have not posted a lie, there are few abusing welfare. So, your new tactic is to try to imply that Alaska must be an anomaly among the 50 States. I am guessing you would say so outright, but you are concerned about falling into a trap because I started with the alphabetically first State in the Union. Now, you want access to my research to try to discredit it. Interesting tactics. But, let's start here:

Assuming my 2007 information on Alaska's welfare fraud is correct, will you now come out and say:
I have proven very few welfare abusers for Alaska.

20   Ryan1781   2009 Aug 6, 2:09pm  

@Bap33

I have faith in Jesus and his teachings, but I am far from a blind zealot. I understand those who do not wish to commit themselves to a faith or a position. However, I also understand that I do not have to indulge them. Facts are facts whether they are assumed or not. Thus far, you have not called me a deceiver. And, hopefully you recognize I have no need to deceive. Hence, I ask you to assume the facts, I know to be as true as any facts can be, to be true and give your conclusion.

When you give your conclusion, you will have taken a verifiable position to all in this posting. One that you can recant only by disproving the facts given to you. Once I provide you (and all others) the source, others may be able to weasel their way around the facts provided, but you will not unless you can disprove the source. I am confident you will not be able to do so. So confident that I need not hide the door to my Father's house, but invite you in.

What say you? Assuming my 2007 information on Alaska’s welfare fraud is correct, will you now come out and say:
I have proven very few welfare abusers for Alaska.

(P.S. I note you do not demand the same level of "facts" from Tenpoundbass that you do from me when you tell him..."a very very good point." And, he is using nothing but probability in his own estimate.)

21   elliemae   2009 Aug 6, 11:56pm  

Yea, life is NOT like a box of chocolates, where all the flavors are provided to you.

(I've been waiting for the opportunity to use that one...)

22   mikey   2009 Aug 7, 2:06am  

Ellie's got gumption when people can't see the forest. Hanks for your input.

23   frodo   2009 Aug 7, 2:39am  

Yes, Bap.

You are one huge contradiction.

You tell others that they are lazy for not Googling:

"You are wrong, and you are lazy — or you could have found all of the info I shared without any trouble with a very simple Google using “Section 8 HUD income limits”.

Yet now, when you exhibit gross slothfulness, you chalk it up to a need to not assume anything.

One of the greatest lessons that Jesus tried to teach was that hypocrisy is disgusting, and he exhibited his greatest anger toward this. Imho.

24   zzyzzx   2009 Sep 2, 5:21am  

I would love to see Section 8 housing discontinued. All it does is increas my taxes to support bloated real estate prices.

25   StillLooking   2009 Sep 3, 8:21am  

How do you find out how many section 8 rentals there are in a particular area?

26   LowlySmartRenter   2009 Sep 3, 8:28am  

StillLooking: Most counties have an online database to search for Section 8 rentals. Look for "Housing Authority" on the County's home page.

27   StillLooking   2009 Sep 3, 8:35am  

LowlySmartRenter says

StillLooking: Most counties have an online database to search for Section 8 rentals. Look for “Housing Authority” on the County’s home page.

I could only find what is available. I want to know how much section 8 there is. I would really like to know if particular properties are section 8.

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