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Israeli military has gone too far this time...again.


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2010 May 31, 9:10am   10,371 views  65 comments

by CBOEtrader   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-clash-20100601,0,5498294,full.story

The Israeli military gets every piece of large machinery it has from the US. Combined with our unwavering support of Israel during any incident, including vetoing of any Israeli sanctions from the UN, is the reason why the "terrorists" hate us.

This time I am thinking that we may have to publicly side with the international community in condemning these Israeli war crimes. I am very curious to hear the Obama response.

#politics

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1   Done!   2010 May 31, 9:40am  

"I am very curious to hear the Obama response."

He's probably more concerned about his feeling over being snubbed... Netanyahu cancels meeting with Obama

2   Bap33   2010 May 31, 9:42am  

Isreal did nothing wrong. Only crazy Arabs and Jew haters would think otherwise.

3   tatupu70   2010 May 31, 9:50am  

Bap33 says

Isreal did nothing wrong. Only crazy Arabs and Jew haters would think otherwise.

Are you being serious? Is there anything that Israel could do that would be "wrong" in your mind?

Listen- I don't know enough about what happened to know for certain who is at fault. Probably both sides are. But to claim that only Jew haters would question Israel's action is just ridiculous.

4   Bap33   2010 May 31, 9:58am  

To call the statement that opened this topic a "question" is what would be ridiculous.

The leftist and pro-arabs that are pumping up Lord Obama will put the world in grave danger if they fail to see where Isreal is on the side of right and good and love ... the islamuslum monster will not stop wanting to taste Jew blood.

5   Bap33   2010 May 31, 10:01am  

in case you missed it: "in condemning these Israeli war crimes." Like I said, crazy arabs and other Jew haters. The media is on board with Lord Barry's islamuslam crusaders.

6   simchaland   2010 May 31, 11:57am  

Oh no you don't.

How about a little light on this subject from people who know better? People who were actually there and in the region and not part of the Anti-Israeli Ultra Left, Anti-semites, and the Anti-Israeli/Pro-Palestinian news agencies in the West.

See what actually happened for yourselves here:
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/05/more_footage_of_passenger_viol.html

And here is an article from an Israeli source, not that I expect many here would trust an Israeli source over alleged "Peace Activists."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

Quote from the article:
"The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances." ...

"Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back."

Also, these alleged "Peace Activists" were warned not to run the military blockade and were asked to disembark in Ashdod, Israel with an offer from the Israeli Government and IDF to allow the "aid" to be trucked into Gaza over land from Ashdod under the watchful eyes of these alleged "Peace Activists."

Why didn't they simply go to Ashdod if their true mission here was to bring true humanitarian aid? They were given many warnings and chances to change course. They chose to run a MILITARY BLOCKADE instead of focusing on getting the aid to Gaza safely. Does anyone else think that this "humanitarian mission" was perhaps more than it seemed?

Let's be clear on this. Israel isn't 100% correct in all of its actions against Palestinian resistance. And the Palestinian resistance and the alleged "Peace Activists" are not 100% correct or even "peaceful" in their resistance. Both sides have blood on their hands. Both sides have a right to reside on that land. There are no simple solutions and no one is free from having done wrong in this conflict.

So, let's try not to demonize either side and let's try to find out the facts, not the opinions and propaganda from both sides, so we can know what really happened.

7   Leigh   2010 May 31, 12:17pm  

Hell, I honestly don't know who to believe but if you think the UN is a good source they state only about a quarter of the needed aid is getting into the people of Gaza.

I listened to "World Have Your Say" today and here is a link http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/

8   simchaland   2010 May 31, 12:23pm  

Ah, yes, the "trusted BBC" news source. As if the BBC is completely unbiased. Somehow I don't believe that at all.

Take a look at what these "Peace Groups" are in relation to the Arab-Israeli Conflict:

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/index.php

Amnesty International is the worst. There isn't a story they haven't conflated, revised, or outright lied about demonizing Israelis in favor of the Palestinians.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/digest_info.php?id=2871

Could groups that we expect to be trustworthy like Amnesty International have a more political bias than we were lead to believe? Just read the links.

And the UN is simply an organization that is run by votes from countries around the world who may or may not like Jews. Often the UN gets involved in making statements that are outright lies and distortions of the reality on the ground in Israel, the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza.

9   Leigh   2010 May 31, 12:40pm  

What I like about 'world have your say' is that folks call or email from all over, literally, and quite often there are conflicting views.

But like I said, I don't know who to believe. Who do you believe?

10   simchaland   2010 May 31, 12:54pm  

Leigh, I weigh many differing opinions. Also I study sources. I study history and I gather opinions and information from all sides of an issue. Then I make my own judgment on whom I trust, and then sometimes those whom I trust end up being untrustworthy so I have to change whom I trust.

Currently, especially after going to Jordan and Egypt and speaking with the locals about many subjects, I have learned that we in the West have a very skewed view of happenings in the Middle East. We often forget that Israel is the only country there with a free press that allows for open and vocal dissent of any kind.

In Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Gaza, The West Bank, and Egypt the press is not allowed to print anything of which the governments of those respective countries would disapprove. This was confirmed unanimously by the Jordanians, Egyptians, and Lebanese I met.

In Israel, the press has the freedom to print or broadcast anything without governmental approval. There are dissidents who vehemently object to what the IDF is doing in the region in Israel who get space in newspapers, time on radio and television shows, and space on websites to get their voices heard.

This doesn't exist in the other countries in the Middle East. Western Journalists in the Middle East outside of Israel are only allowed to gather information from "approved" sources. Those sources are approved by the various Arab governments.

In Israel, Western Journalists are free to gather information from whomever they wish and to report whatever they wish back to the West.

Are you starting to see why I may trust Israeli sources of information a little bit more than non-Israeli sources of information in the region? News coming out of the Middle East is filtered through our news agencies who must sell their news. Often our Western News Agencies have their own political agendas. The press may be free here but it's not free of the bias of the owners of the News Agencies.

In Israeli news sources you can find many different points of view about a topic or story. In Arab news sources, you will only find one unified story, most of the time. I found it incredibly interesting how newspapers in Jordan and Egypt reported the same stories written almost exactly in the same manner (in the English versions). You only get one viewpoint. That viewpoint is the "approved" viewpoint of the Arab governments when you are watching or reading Arab news. Israeli news has all sorts of debate and different points of view.

That's why Israeli broadcasts are jammed in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt.

Personally, I like a society that can critique itself and isn't afraid to show its ugly side to the world. The only society that does this openly in the Middle East is Israel.

11   Bap33   2010 May 31, 1:02pm  

the crazy arabs have the best fear factor and propaganda going. They can lie and kill and the media runs away afraid ... almost as afraid as the yare of Lord Barry and his band of theives. Anyone draw any mo-homo-hamad pictures in the news lately? No? hmmm imagine that.

My Advice: Support Isreal and the entire Jewish Nation with all we have, or else we have nothing - soon.

12   Leigh   2010 May 31, 1:10pm  

Wow! So I would love to hear you take on the recent Chomsky incident.

BTW, I think I will continue my 'no idea' thoughts with this conflict. I don't have the time or motivation to do what you do.

13   Bap33   2010 May 31, 1:17pm  

@sim,
will the gov control over the media in America get to that point soon in your opinion?

14   simchaland   2010 May 31, 1:33pm  

Bap, so long as corporations run the government, the press will continue to be run by people with certain political agendas and aspirations via corporations. In my opinion we are headed towards a Fascist Corporate-run Government if we aren't there already.

15   simchaland   2010 May 31, 2:21pm  

Leigh,

Apparently the military got away with itself and the Interior Ministry of Israel disagreed with the denial of entry.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/noam-chomsky-denied-entry-into-israel-and-west-bank-1.290701

"Interior Ministry spokeswoman Sabine Haddad said officials were now trying to get clearance from the Israel Defense Forces, which controls access to the West Bank to allow Chomsky to enter that territory.

"We are trying to contact the military to clear things up and if they have no objection we see no reason why he should not be allowed in," said Hadad." -quote from the article linked above.

Apparently the military in Israel is more "right wing" than many Israelis are. That sounds familiar...

16   CBOEtrader   2010 May 31, 2:27pm  

I guess we have found the subject which unites Bap and Simcha.

It is obsurd to say that any media source in the US is anti-Israel. The BBC and international media are less biased and for that, they get accused of being anti-semitic (which is an incorrect use of the term given that the palestinians are also semitic) and anti-Israel. This is all complete nonsense.

Simcha, is it your opinion that the repelling-fully-armed commandos were on a diplomatic mission? You are obviously missing a rational thought process when it comes to Israel.

Israel has been using any excuse to blow its arab neighbors back into the stone age for the last 50 years. Go look at the UN voting history. The entire world, minus the US of course, agrees that Israel has committed war crimes and atrocities. Is it your premise that the entire world hates Jews? Besides, how can you justify the blockade in the first place?

I grew up going to synagogue as well. I think the failure of rational thought comes from Yisrael (the world's Jewry) being confused with the purely secular political state of Israel. It is a subtle form of brainwashing to associate loved family and friends with a government. Very powerful, while at the same time very misleading.

Bap33 says

Isreal did nothing wrong. Only crazy Arabs and Jew haters would think otherwise.

I have no idea where you are coming from, or how you can make such an insane statement. Is this what they teach you in church these days?

17   Leigh   2010 May 31, 2:28pm  

Yes, it's fascinating to compare two articles about the same subject. This is the article I read a couple of weeks back...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/world/middleeast/18chomsky.html

Before kids I used to read a periodical that did just that. It took a significant event and presented two articles, one from each 'side'. It was amazing to see the two different perspectives, the choice of words, facts that seemed to be glossed over or left out. Wish I could recall that periodical as I need to start reading again.

18   simchaland   2010 May 31, 4:24pm  

Leigh,

Thanks for illustrating my point and what I enjoy doing. I like to compare and contrast differing viewpoints in order to see which one I believe has more merit. Unlike what CBOEtrader claims I'm not brainwashed into believing that Israel has never done anything wrong. And unlike CBOEtrader I haven't forgotten that the Palestinian side has done the same war crimes and atrocities that the Israelis have done and that both sides have blood on their hands.

And I haven't blinded myself to what is good about each side either. I try not to become irrationally for one side over the other, as most do here in the Bay Area and in the world.

CBOEtrader,

Did you watch the videos? I just watched the Bay Area Evening News and even our news here that is normally quite anti-Israeli/Pro-Palestinian reported that the videos showed how these alleged "Peace Activists" attacked the soldiers immediately upon their arrival on the ship with iron clubs, deck chairs, knives, and stun grenades and guns taken from the beaten soldiers. The soldiers only asked to use lethal force when these alleged "Peace Activists" began using lethal force against the soldiers. The IDF soldiers were ordered to use their paint bullets only if things got out of hand. They had to get special permission to use lethal force. The IDF mistakenly thought that these "Peace Activists" were well, Peace Activists. They turned out to be something quite different.

If these "Peace Activists" were so concerned with getting this "humanitarian aid" to the Gaza Strip, they would have taken up the IDF's offer to allow them to disembark at Ashdod and to allow the "Peace Activists" to truck the "humanitarian aid" into the Gaza Strip.

So, what kind of "Peace Mission" uses lethal force against anyone especially when no one has attacked them? The soldiers were simply boarding the ship until they were attacked violently.

No, these "Peace Activists" had more than a few radical Bay Area Pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israeli activists aboard ship with a political point to make. They refused to refrain from running the MILITARY BLOCKADE, that complies with International Law by the way, so that they could have this conflict with the IDF. If they were more concerned with getting aid to the people of Gaza, they would have landed at Ashdod and trucked the "aid" in.

No, instead the "Peace Activists" acted like thugs with something to hide. It makes one wonder what kind of "aid" these "Peace Activists" were bringing the people of Gaza. I'm juss sayin'.

19   kentm   2010 May 31, 7:23pm  

Yes, we will grieve for those noble fallen Israeli soldiers... oh, wait...

20   CBOEtrader   2010 May 31, 10:33pm  

simchaland says

the videos showed how these alleged “Peace Activists” attacked the soldiers immediately upon their arrival on the ship with iron clubs, deck chairs, knives, and stun grenades and guns taken from the beaten soldiers.

No one disputes this. Though, I am confused as to your insinuation. You don't prepare to attack an army with iron clubs, deck chairs, and knives. That is what a desperate group does as a last resort, which is being boarded by fully-armed commandos.

simchaland says

The IDF soldiers were ordered to use their paint bullets only if things got out of hand.

This is just silly. If I walk up to a police officer with an AK-47, he will forcibly ask me to drop it, or he will shoot me. It doesn't matter if it was armed with paint-bullets or not. Fully-armed commandos repelling onto the ship is not a diplomatic mission. The fact that the "activists" defended themselves with deck chairs and whatever else they could find on their ships does not, in any way, make them the aggressors.

simchaland says

So, what kind of “Peace Mission” uses lethal force against anyone especially when no one has attacked them? The soldiers were simply boarding the ship until they were attacked violently.

what????????? Like, I said before, your rational thought process stops when it comes to Israel.

simchaland says

No, these “Peace Activists” had...a political point to make.

Making a political point doesn't justify a lethal force. Storming a boat in the middle of the night, while armed with machine guns does. The fact that the "activists" attacked with deck chairs is proof that they had no real weapons with them, and were only defending themselves anyway they could.

21   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 2:41am  

CBOEtrader says

Making a political point doesn’t justify a lethal force.

Thanks for proving my point.

If these were real Peace Activists they would have chosen to land at Ashdod, Israel in order to truck the aid to Gaza in peace. Instead they ran a MILITARY BLOCKADE after being warned many times not to do it, which is an act of war, not peace.

The USA had a similar blockade of Libya's coast and didn't allow anyone through who wasn't authorized. There were no international incidents then, I wonder why?

22   CBOEtrader   2010 Jun 1, 3:09am  

simchaland says

CBOEtrader says
Making a political point doesn’t justify a lethal force.
Thanks for proving my point.

??? Rational thought is dead with this one.

simchaland says

The USA had a similar blockade of Libya’s coast and didn’t allow anyone through who wasn’t authorized. There were no international incidents then, I wonder why?

I am not pretending to be an expert on the US blockade of Libya. However, I would suppose that there was no incident because the US didn't attack international ships 72 nautical miles off the coast of Libya.

Israel could have waited until the ships were obviously within the blockade zone. They then could have blocked the 4, or so, flotillas' further movement. Instead they decided to raid a ship 72 nautical miles off the coast of Israel, or 60 miles into international waters. If the flotillas' had obviously violated the blockade, the UN and the entire world wouldn't be able to condemn Israel as being no better than Somali pirates.

The IDF will do anything they like, then call the world anti-semitic when the UN calls foul. Only the US government supports the actions of the IDF. The UN was ready to release an immediate response condemning Israeli actions, but the US held up the process by 11 hours so that they could water down the statement so as to sound less harsh towards Israel. Typical pro-Israeli US bullshit.

23   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 3:20am  

"Full of sound and fury signifying nothing." -Shakespeare

Look we all know why these alleged "Peace Activists" were headed to run a MILITARY BLOCKADE which is an act of war. They got the expected response that they wanted in order to make Israel look bad, as usual.

The truth is that these "Peace Activists" didn't really want this "humanitarian aid" to get to Gaza or they would have complied with Israel's request to land safely at Ashdod. They wanted to score political points.

The IDF fell into the trap, as usual. That happens when you develop paranoia after 50 or more years of the world wanting to wipe you off of the face of the globe.

Look, Israel isn't 100% correct in this. And the "Peace Activists" most certainly aren't in the right in this either. Both sides are vying for international sympathies. At the moment the "Peace Activists" have the upper hand in world opinion. Their job is made easier by the world's anti-Semitic bias.

Israel has become paranoid for a reason. They should have acted more rationally allowing the boats to reach the 12 mile line. However, Israel has learned that when they allow things to develop for too long, they get burned. It doesn't excuse their lack of judgment in not waiting until the ships were actually at the line.

Again, both sides have done wrong, as is usual in this conflict.

I just get tired of the one-sided response of the UN and international community who is all too eager to get rid of Israel based on biases that defy reason.

Here's CNN for an example:
http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1857#cnn

24   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 3:31am  

And loe and behold! Weapons were found on the ships that were bringing "humanitarian aid" to Gaza.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=52&x_article=1859

I'm sure that the "Peace Activists" will respond with some version of this:

"What do you mean we have weapons, Officer? You must have planted those weapons on us."

Or

"What weapons? Those were tools and they were completely useless against the real weapons brought on board by the IDF."

25   pkennedy   2010 Jun 1, 4:18am  

@CBOEtrader

They are allowed to attack in international waters, if a blockade is known to be run. The group made a huge statement before leaving, that they were going to run it. The whole point was to create a confrontation and nothing else. Before they left, Israel said they wouldn't be let through and not to do it. They only had chairs and steel bars to fight with? that is how desperate they were? When an ak-47 costs a few dollars over there, but a boat is a fortune? Have you seen how much fuel a boat uses? It's astronomical. They did it intentionally to create a public outcry.

None of those countries around there are friends, they could help the Palestinians, but they don't. They only "help" when it's in their interest, or when they are trying to get something else. Saudi Arabia could easily give them all the food they need, but they don't. They token help so they can say they're helping, without doing anything. Same with the other countries. What do they give them? Weapons. Very little to make a new start, but tons of weapons.

The other issue is Hamas gets ahold of goods that come in and then redistributes them as it sees fit. many agencies don't even try and help now because they're donated goods are simply taken and distributed by Hamas as they see fit. Hamas keeps people intentionally poor to gain support and then gives out food as needed to win more support. They're great at politics and winning people over. They know what they are doing.

Israel could walk through those countries and obliterate them all. They aren't interested in doing that. Everyone claims they have nuclear weapons, but they haven't confirmed it, but if they do have them, they have had them for 20-30 years? They've never said they had them, never used them as deterrent, and obviously never used them. They could do whatever they wanted, but they don't. They're hoping for a political party that will form over there, that they can deal with. Hamas isn't that party, they have no intention of creating peace because they'll lose their political power then. They need someone over there who will actually fight their own people to keep the peace. If *anyone* tries to disturb the peace, they need to hunt them down and toss them in jail. How can you draw up a peace treaty saying 98% of the voted population won't fire missles at you. The 2% who do, well we're not going to stop them and we don't want you coming over here to stop them as part of the "peace" process. That isn't going to work.

While I'm not for Israel, I can see that the other side has very little intention of creating peace or trying to hold onto it. The surrounding countries don't care. Everyone in power is doing well, including Hamas leaders. Israel has some religious fanatics who want war, others who want peace. It's a mess in the end. Israel might be using a lot of heavy handed tactics, but they essentially have to, as they're just constantly being tested to see what the other side can get away with.

Funny news story I saw, that no one else around me noticed: Gaza fuel blockade. They were running out of fuel, they interviewed this guy filling his car up at the gas station and he said he was buying 300L of gas to ensure he had enough, that it was hard on his family, all the regular political stuff. #1) he has a car #2) he's able to buy 300L of gas #3) they zoomed out as the clip was ending, and it was a newer bmw.

I liked this book, it was one of his first ones, and really shows the mentality of the people. His other books, I haven't been fans of realy, but this one had some decent insight into the area. http://www.amazon.com/Beirut-Jerusalem-Thomas-L-Friedman/dp/0385413726

"Death In Gaza" was an interesting documentary. The original movie was going to be going into Gaza, filming, then into Israel and filming, but the guy producing the thing ended up getting killed in Gaza. They tried to make it look like it wasn't their fault and blamed it on Israel. However, they stayed in an active operations area, where Israel was doing an operation, even though they were all warned before hand to get out (in general announcements). When they got scared, they said ok lets get out of here! In the dark, they came out waving stuff at the military, yelling at them, in the dark, claiming they were news reporters, pointing big cameras at them and walking right at them. It's a war, not a game. It was really unfortunate, but it was people who didn't understand it was a war zone who treated it like it was a game they were filming and could quit whenever they wanted. The show was pretty good though, and I'd recommend it. It's available on netflix.

26   kentm   2010 Jun 1, 4:20am  

> No, these “Peace Activists” had…a political point to make.

Yes, and the point was that Isreal's blockade of Humanitarian Aid ships like this one is killing people in Gaza. That these people were willing to run a blockade at obvious great risk to themselves to make that point is some indication to some of us who think a bit more clearly of how dire the situation in Gaza is. But all that suffering doesn't seem to factor into your thinking.

> which is an act of war, not peace.

Another illegal act is also collective punishment of a civilian population.

> And loe and behold! Weapons were found on the ships

Dude. A couple of guns. Really. Your dignity is in tatters.

27   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 4:24am  

pkennedy says

The other issue is Hamas gets ahold of goods that come in and then redistributes them as it sees fit. many agencies don’t even try and help now because they’re donated goods are simply taken and distributed by Hamas as they see fit. Hamas keeps people intentionally poor to gain support and then gives out food as needed to win more support. They’re great at politics and winning people over. They know what they are doing.

What? You mean that Hamas is keeping the Gazans hostage in order to win international sympathy? Really? Peace loving Hamas would never do anything like that. It's not like they're a terrorist organization or anything.

28   LowlySmartRenter   2010 Jun 1, 5:30am  

Spend some time in Israel and you learn right quick just how under attack they are by neighbors on all sides. Every building in Israel, business and home, must be built with a bomb shelter. If you escort children in public, you must carry a fire arm on your person (think field trip). What we see occassionally at our airports, where some idiot crosses the security barrier and all flights are frozen, multiply it by 100 and it happens a few times a week in every major city across Israel. Soldiers with assault rifles are everywhere. Shopping malls, libraries, restaurants, office buildings...*everywhere*. I don't think most Americans can grasp what it is like to live under constant threat of attack. We think we know, but until you're in it, you don't realize just how lucky we are to be so far away from the action.

It's like an angry hornets nest over there, and these bozos want to play with the hive? It's a war zone. Any threat is taken seriously. There are no mistakes allowed. So, if these "Peace Activists" were indeed looking for peace, they certainly went about it all the wrong way. And I strongly suspect they knew that. They must have known how such an action would be viewed by the Israelis. If they didn't, they are too stupid to be carrying out any operations in the waters off Israel.

29   tatupu70   2010 Jun 1, 5:39am  

LowlySmartRenter says

If they didn’t, they are too stupid to be carrying out any operations in the waters off Israel.

I think they got exactly what they wanted. Have you seen the World reaction? I'd say it was the Israeli's that were stupid...

I'm not pro or anti-Israel, but I think some of their actions ensure that their country remains a war zone...

30   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 5:45am  

LowlySmartRenter,

On the tour I was on in Jordan and Egypt we were accompanied by security forces with concealed fire arms for our own safety. Driving through Jordan you are confronted with military checkpoints every few miles where there is a little shelter on the side of the road where there are guards armed with machine guns. Driving through Egypt both on the Sinai and along the Nile, and even in the desert, you have even more controlled military checkpoints where you are required to stop every few miles and answer questions that are asked by men with machine guns.

On the Sinai in Egypt we had a military escort. There was a jeep with men with machine guns that didn't leave our side.

The entire Middle East is a war zone. Security can't be guaranteed anywhere in or outside of Israel. You go at your own risk.

The Arabs and the Israelis live under constant threat of war and violence. Neither side has it really "good." It's a sad situation that unfortunately has no simple solution. That is because irrationality rules over there. There is deep-seated mistrust of anyone who is "foreign." People in the region remember their history where foreign goverments treated them as colonies and partitioned the land creating the current political nightmare that exists on the ground.

Unfortunately the meddling hasn't stopped. These "Peace Activists" meddle in their own way to try to gain sympathy for the Arab population under Israeli occupation. We Americans meddle on Israel's behalf to gain sympathy for the Israelis who are every bit as manipulative of world opinion as the Arab countries are. The rest of the world meddles in the affairs of the Middle East constantly choosing one side or the other depending on the goals of their own manipulation.

Perhaps if left alone the people who actually live in the Middle East could work things out amongst themselves. International intervention has only made things worse, and the people who live there remember this because they live with the results even today, both Israelis and Arabs.

31   LowlySmartRenter   2010 Jun 1, 5:52am  

Unless they pick up and move Israel to another part of the globe, there is nothing else they can do to get out of the war zone. Even that might not work. When there are whole nations hell bent on the destruction of Israel, would it matter if they moved to one of the poles?

Maybe in your opinion Israel looks stupid. But they don't care what you think. Or the world's opinion of them. Really, they just don't care. They are about the toughest people I've ever met. It's like a nation of Navy Seals or Green Berets.

It's about life and death to them, not how they "look". It's about survival, and they simply don't put up with any shenanigans.

32   pkennedy   2010 Jun 1, 6:07am  

@simchaland
I think you've pretty much nailed it on the head. There are also cultural differences which we simply can't understand over here as well, which the media plays into, because what we don't understand looks sureal and barbaric or looks unjust. Not just with Israel, but with almost anything that comes out of the middle east.

@LowlySmartRenter
Israel chewed into the Palestine land during the many years of war, however Egypt and all other countries jumped on the band wagon and took a piece of their land. They're just picking the fight with the group they hate the most right now. If Israel made peace with them (somehow) they would jump onto the next band wagon to get another piece of land back. The land they have now is just a small pittance of what England had assigned them before leaving that area...

33   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 6:16am  

LowlySmartRenter, yes that's right. Even if they moved Israel to barren islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that no other nation claims there would be problems. Israelis would make those islands into a paradise that would produce food, create industry, and it would be a center of Jewish learning as well as secular learning. The world would get jealous and some tribe somewhere in the Pacific would claim those islands as their homeland and we would see the international community going after the "Zionist Colonizers." Only in this case the world may actually have had a point because they would be colonizing islands where Jews never existed. Today Israel is situated on land where there is at least some legitimate claim to the land even while the Arab claims are also valid. How do you continue to have a Jewish State on disputed land where people used to co-exist under foreign occupiers in relative peace? Perhaps that's Israel's first mistake, trying to create a "Jews only" country when they could have granted citizenship to everyone who lived within their borders. Oh wait, they tried that and they were invaded by 5 Arab armies, but who's counting?

Make no mistake. Jews all over the world are bent on survival. Modern Israel is a construction to ensure the continued existance of Jews in the land from which we came originally. It may not be the best solution, but it is a solution that made sense over 50 years ago in the aftermath of the murder of 6 million Jews in Europe.

Some of us Jews argue that our survival has depended on the diaspora (the spreading out of world Jewry among all nations) and that the gathering of at least 50% of world Jewry in a war zone isn't the best way to ensure that we will survive as a people and religion. However, those of us born well after the establishment of Israel and the end of the Holocaust can easily rethink decisions made over 50 years ago from the comfort of countries where we are relatively left alone like the USA. It's easy for us to criticize and condemn from afar when we are living in relative safety and comfort and we only get bits and pieces of the news from over there without living the experience of what it must be like to live as an Israeli Jew, or Israeli Arab for that matter (they do, in fact, exist).

The IDF took the bait and made some faulty decisions based on faulty intelligence. However, there is a certain logic to how they handled the incident if you can place yourself in an Israeli's shoes for a moment. There is a long history of a de facto state of war declared against Israel by all of the countries in the region and the people who live in them who aren't Israeli. If you were Israeli you would be painfully aware that the true intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to see the destruction of your country, the deportation of the Israeli Jews from their homeland, and the killing of Israeli Jews who would resist. You are reminded of that on a daily basis by experiencing heightened security in response to terrorist bombings on your own soil, rockets that fly overhead to explode randomly all over your country, and an international indifference or even active international action against your country.

It's very easy to side with the "poor Arabs" who were displaced during the War of Independence when 5 Arab armies invaded upon the declaration of the State of Israel and who lost that war and every war since then. And you'd have to have blinders on to avoid seeing that their Arab brothers and sisters in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have purposefully excluded Palestinian Arabs from becoming citizens of their countries in order to keep them in refugee camps without adequate sewage, food, water, or opportunities to better themselves in order to gain international sympathy for the "poor Palestinian Arabs."

Each side is being cleverly manipulated by powers that come from outside as well as elements who don't want peace on the inside. Most Israelis and Arabs in Israel and Palestine simply want to live their lives to the fullest. They have no interest in demonizing each other. However, when outside forces, like Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt oppress their own Arab brothers and sisters in order to get sympathy for them by keeping them in squalor, I can understand why a Palestinian Arab living in occupied territories and refugee camps would resent Israel. What I don't understand is why the international community allows Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to mistreat Palestinian Arabs without comment and comes down exclusively on Israel for what it does (which is wrong) in the occupied territories.

34   CBOEtrader   2010 Jun 1, 6:52am  

LowlySmartRenter says

When there are whole nations hell bent on the destruction of Israel, would it matter if they moved to one of the poles?

Yes. It would make an enormous difference. The arabs that state they want to wipe Israel off the map are angry that the palestinians were marched out of their homes at gunpoint. They want to return the rule of the land to some muslim authority and wipe the political entity of Israel off the map. They are not saying they want all Jews dead (well, at least not publicly). I am not saying these people aren't crazy religious zealots, or that they aren't dangerous.

The zionists could have chosen land in the middle of Utah to build their nation. They decided to choose the most coveted religious site on earth, which was already populated by people who had lived there for centuries. To gain control of the land they had to force a suspect muslim population from their homes at gunpoint--often using extreme terrorist tactics. This was an operation envisioned and operated by power hungry rich jerks, pretending to represent the world's Jewry. It had everything to do with secular greed, power, money, etc and nothing to do with the Jewish religion or even the Jewish people in general.

It is not unique now or historically for Jewish religious leaders (as opposed to secular leaders) to state that Zionism is antithetical to the purpose of Judiasm.

For instance read this statement TO THE U.N. SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE by Chief Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky
July 16, 1947

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/dushinskyjuly1947.cfm

He is not the only jewish religious leader who was against the formation of a Jewish state.

"It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King....I don't say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place." --The famous Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman.

35   LowlySmartRenter   2010 Jun 1, 6:54am  

Thanks Simchaland. You've given us some food for thought, instead of the usual "us and them" argument. That's another tired story. As if either side is completely innocent of any wrong doing, and as if this country never waged an illegal war for no damn good reason (well, two wars technically, maybe three if you throw in Vietnam). Imagine the U.S. giving back Utah, Colorado, and Nevada to the tribes that originally inhabited them. What kind of economy would the new nation have? And how would that work to anyone's favor?

I see Palestanians as peaceful people who just want to make a living, and they are harrassed and killed and kept from family, all because of border struggles that have nothing to do with them. The ones born in Jerusalem are now Israeli citizens, technically. But so what? To them, their citizenship papers do not bring home the bread, nor do they ensure them against terror. They are just pawns, and they know it. They don't care who "wins" really. Just agree on a border and leave it be. Must we rehash old wars and resettle old scores for eternity? At some point, we just have to live together and forget what was and deal with what is.

If the U.S. was somehow forced to give up terrority every few years to the original natives (including Mexico), how comfortable would we feel about an ever changing border? And then imagine Canada has a sworn oath to obliterate the U.S. Maybe then we could understand a smidge of the tension Israelis feel about giving up more to keep the peace. It's not so easy and clear cut as many of us would like it to be.

36   Ptipking222   2010 Jun 1, 7:50am  

I can understand why Europe/Arabs/UN condemn Israel. If an Israeli soldier sneezes on an Arab, they consider it a war crime.

I'm a bit surprised Obama lashed out at Israel (albeit in a small way)...it does put fuel in the fire of those that claim Obama is anti-Israel.

But, from what I can tell, these are the sequence of events:

1. An activist group attempts to run a military blockade. They know full well what they are doing is illegal and may meet resistance from the Israeli military.

2. The Israeli military confronts the activists. Attempts to be peaceful. Is attacked more forcefully than expected. Lashes out in response.

3. People blame the Israeli military for starting the fight. WTF?

I think the one blemish on Israel is this may have occurred in international waters...but you know, it's not like this wouldn't have gone down the exact same way except a mile closer to Israel otherwise if they had waited.

37   pkennedy   2010 Jun 1, 9:10am  

@Ptipking222

People are blaming Israel for starting the fight, and whenever it's pointed out #1 and #2 above, they turn to the age old -- they're persecuting the Palestinians. It's all a mess, and really it just "helps" the Palestinians in the end.

#3 is likely to cause controversy but there is some maritime law that says you can do it in international waters to block someone from doing a blockade run. Since this group had the news going well before they even left, it's pretty obvious what their intentions where. They made them public, they stated what they were going to do, etc.

38   pkennedy   2010 Jun 1, 9:12am  

@CBOEtrader

Your quote was from a religious leader quoting something from the Torah -- which isn't really a "legitimate" reason. It's someone pointing out that god said they couldn't go back there. Not that they shouldn't for a good reason.

In the end it's just a mess.

39   simchaland   2010 Jun 1, 9:19am  

CBOEtrader, you're reasoning would be correct if there weren't any Jews living in Israel/Palestine for millenia. Jews haven't entirely abandoned Israel/Palestine ever. There have always been Jews living there. The people who call themselves "Arabs" now come from people who have been living there for millenia too. Both peoples have legitimate claims to the land. Both peoples are being manipulated for someone else's benefit.

The local Arabs weren't thrilled about being under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks before the British Mandate. The Christian crusaders and various other governments that ruled the land before that still didn't allow local rule.

Also, that fantasy that Arabs were marched out of their homes at gunpoint falls in the face of the facts of history. Local Arabs were told by the 5 armies of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and Syria that they should evacuate their land so that the 5 armies could drive the Jews into the sea and the land would be stained with their blood. Many of them fled the conflict to become refugees of their neighbors where their descendants haven't been allowed citizenship in their host countries. Few were actually forcibly removed from their lands, contrary to popular anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian propaganda.

When Israel won, they didn't allow these people to return to their land. Why? Well, would you like to have neighbors who want you dead living next door to you? Think about that.

Israel/Palestine hasn't had local independent rule since before the time of the Romans and then before the Greeks. That's over 2000 years ago. They (Jew and non-Jew) have been ruled by foreign powers for over 2000 years until the British Mandate ended.

So, Jews aren't simply colonizers and the Arabs living in Israel and Palestine aren't simply colonized. They have both lived on that land continuously for thousands of years together under foreign governments.

40   Ptipking222   2010 Jun 1, 3:13pm  

LowlySmartRenter says

I see Palestanians as peaceful people who just want to make a living, and they are harrassed and killed and kept from family, all because of border struggles that have nothing to do with them.

That's a bit naive. They elected the Hamas as their leaders after all. If the Palestinians were predominately moderate in their views and accepted Israel as a legitimate country, they would have had peace/their own country years ago.
I used to feel sorry for the Palestinians, until I took a critical look at Arab life. There are no strong Arab democracies in the area...most of the countries are dictatorships or monarchies. In the 21st century, many developing countries have democracies, so it's more than just these countries being 'poor' (though one should question why these countries are so poor given the oil wealth).
They're a patriarchal, backwards culture that's bitter and believes they should be world power. They care more about backwards traditions than economic growth and peace.
Until this attitude goes away, there will never be a stable peace in the area, and the Arab countries (including the Palestinians) will never thrive.
Most sympathy for the Palestinians is a combination of naturally feeling sorry for the Underdog and latent anti-semitism. Few people actually care about improving the lives of the Palestinians, including themselves.

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