patrick.net

But Abe, please consider all the wonderful things those government workers are accomplishing. For point of reference, read tatupu, troy, the Duckie Dude, Nomo, etc.

...not because there are more government u ion workers, bjut because private industry unions have been destroyed by the free trade agenda of the anti government crowd.

But that would be inconvenient to mention, right?

Kevin, please stop adding actual content and pertinent information. It fucks with his agenda.

Nomograph says

Our nations founders believed that “the noblest motive is public service.”

I challenge you to take a walk inside any Federal Government office building and then report back to us if this is what the founders had in mind. I've seen it for myself. What I was able to observe practically made me ill; a lot of people wondering around like they had all the time in the world to do nothing.

Nomograph says

I forgot that you were a government worker. That explains everything.

If I were a government "worker," you'd admire me. Remember? You and the "founders" thought working for the government was mankind's highest calling. LOL

RayAmerica says

If I were a government “worker,” you’d admire me. Remember? You and the “founders” thought working for the government was mankind’s highest calling. LOL

Any chance you were fired?

RayAmerica says

a lot of people wondering around like they had all the time in the world to do nothing.

Sounds like a description of one of your arguments.

here's a graph of private industry wages from 1930 to present:

and here's a few thoughts on unions:
"Before there were unions, there was no middle class. Working people didn't get to send their kids to college, few were able to own their own fucking home, nobody could take a fucking day off for a funeral or a sick day or they might lose their fucking job.

Then working people organized themselves into unions. The bosses and the companies fucking hated that. In fact, they were often overheard to say, "Fuck the UAW!!!" That's because the UAW had beaten one of the world's biggest industrial corporations when they won their battle on February 11, 1937, 44 days after they'd taken over the GM factories in Flint. Inspired by their victory, workers struck almost every other fucking industry, and union after union was born. Had World War II not begun and had FDR not died, there would have been an economic revolution that would have given everyone — everyone — a fucking decent life."

kentm sounds like another in a long line of well adjusted, happy, contented liberals that are just a joy to be around. Your problem seems to be that you're still fuming over the fact that you "lost" in your bid to buy that house. Too bad that evil "flipper" out bid you by $60,000.

Yep, the stupidity will continue until the whole house of cards collapse.

Funny, I thought the whole house of cards already collapsed, almost exactly 2 years ago.

This is the first year in American history which there are now more union workers in government jobs than in private industry jobs

Gosh, I wonder whether that's due to an increase in government union workers or a decrease in private sector union workers. Wasn't it one of your heros that helped kill private sector union workers ?

RayAmerica says

kentm sounds like another in a long line of well adjusted, happy, contented liberals that are just a joy to be around. Your problem seems to be that you’re still fuming over the fact that you “lost” in your bid to buy that house. Too bad that evil “flipper” out bid you by $60,000.

Well giggles, at least my cheap shots are on topic.

Here's another fact for you related to gov jobs: the number of people working in gov positions is basically the same as it was in 1963. 1963. What growth there has been in gov ranks has been in the form of private companies operating under contract. Do you ever actually THINK about or research what you write?

I understand you're pissed off. These are shitty times for a lot of people and it looks to be only getting worse. A lot of the ideas we were raised on are falling away, notions of stability and order, revealed to be little more than convenient stories and we're looking around for people to blame, in order, I hope, to make things right. Fair enough. But dude, when you pull out a gun make sure you're aiming it at the right target. Your shots are just so regularly off mark and inconsistent with its purported purpose its amazing.

kentm says

Do you ever actually THINK about or research what you write?

kentm says

But dude, when you pull out a gun make sure you’re aiming it at the right target. Your shots are just so regularly off mark and inconsistent with its purported purpose its amazing.

I admit "Dude" that I don't think like you (like thankfully, "Dude). Like, "Dude," I don't subscribe to your like nutty idea to "tax flippers like 100%." Sorry I don't make sense to you "Dude," because I like really try hard, "Dude."

Just fyi Ray. In 1980, saying "dude" might have meant you were likely either an airhead or that you had grown up a surfer in southern California. But at this point, or even 15 years ago, it's very mainstream, usually denoting friendliness.

Sort of a cross between "buddy" and "man." You might not hear it much in the corporate boardroom, but you can be sure that when those same middle aged highly educated corporate dudes are at lunch, they might use it, especially with friends.

So, once again you appear the fool. Just so you know.

I know, I know you don't care how you appear to me. As long as Abe is still impressed.

marcus says

So, once again you appear the fool. Just so you know.
I know, I know you don’t care how you appear to me. As long as Abe is still impressed.

I appreciate your insight and am glad we can have a mature discourse without name calling. But the funny thing is in my experience (maybe it's me) is that I NEVER hear anyone that is mature, educated and successful use the term "Dude." It's kind of the same thing with attending a social event where people dress up and there's a woman with a nice dress on and she has tattoos. But hey, don't let me stop you from using "Dude" like every other word. It probably is better than "you know" if you know what I mean.

RayAmerica says

But hey, don’t let me stop you from using “Dude” like every other word

I don't use it necessarily even every day, but dude, it's nice to keep up with the times.

I suppose you think if someone says to you, "thanks man," that they must be either a pot smoking musician, or a hippy, or an African American who has issues about being called "boy" too many times.

RayAmerica says

glad we can have a mature discourse without name calling.

What's the difference between me saying you appeared a fool (not calling you a fool) and you mocking his language, implying what ? What do you think it was that even prompted my comment ?

marcus says

I suppose you think if someone says to you, “thanks man,” that they must be either a pot smoking musician, or a hippy, or an African American who has issues about being called “boy” too many times.

I really like the way you never exagerate or jump to conclusions. How "African Americans" entered the subject is interesting. Let me guess: is making fun of using the term "Dude" a latent racism just waiting to burst to the surface? LOL

Fascinating.

No, just thinking about modern usage of the term "man," in a context such as "thanks man."

Its a good example, because it's not too far from "dude" and because it's usage went from specific circles in 1940 or 1965 to being I think totally mainstream today. OF course today hard rock is old school. Time flies.

"Cool" is another one. Wasn't all that mainstream as recently as 1975. Kids only back then.

thunderlips11 says

Anybody want to guess which Industry Employed this guy?

Something energy related ?

I'll guess natural gas, because oil is too obvious.

This from Nomo: "Modern conservatives and AM talk radio entertainers have abandoned almost all of the principals which this nation was built". Hahaha. What a crock. As usual, your "understanding" of reality is completely backwards. But you're too brain-damaged to realize it.

I know your kind, you don't like what freedom and liberty represent, the very things which AM radio support and defend...so you want to shoot the messenger(s). OMG, how pathetic.

BTW, I'll find no pleasure at all in telling you psychopathological lib's, Democrats, socialists, progressives and the like: "I TOLD YOU SO".

Honest Abe says

BTW, I’ll find no pleasure at all in telling you psychopathological lib’s, Democrats, socialists, progressives and the like: “I TOLD YOU SO”

What, when the authorities you look up to and are so obedient to feel that they have to institute marshal law? And when they put us on trains to some gulag? For your own good?

Marcus - you also have it backwards - why am I not surprised. Its the authorities YOU look up to, and are so much in agreement with. You are the non-thinkers that support big, massive, parasitic, interventionist government. Government has become your maternal replacement. When social or business issues arise you expect, no - you demand that "Government do something about it". Mommy - make it go away.

I know you haven't noticed, but whenever government gets involved to fix a problem, the "solution" just delays the real cure or makes the problem even worse.

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. Watch, next they'll be after YOUR retirement account. But don't worry, you can trust them - after all, they know what's better for you, than you do. Right?

Unfettered "free market" capitalism leads to the corruption we see today, of politicians owned by Corporations.

Socialism taken to the extreme has it's problems, especially the potential for inefficient use of capital, and bureaucratic corruption that can occur.

Corporatism (fascism) leads to wars that are waged for corporate profit, loss of freedom, and a rapid enslavement of the working class.

None of these are nearly optimal forms of government. What we end up with is a mix, just like every other nation state. Maybe we can agree to just fight the worst attributes of the three without buying in to the dogma that any one of the 3 is the all out best or that any one of the 3 is totally evil.

I believe we want a mix of capitalism and socialism, but not one that is identical to china's. We should focus on preserving freedom, preventing corruption and fraud, finding balance between market forces deciding where capital is employed and central planners doing it.

But above all, we have to prevent corporations from running our government. That is the biggest trend that has led us to where we are today. And Abe, the corporate interests with their divide and conquer message are the ones programming you on AM radio.

If you think my idea of accepting some socialism is crazy, let's not forget about social security and Medicare. We already have some socialism (not including recent hopefully temporary corporate socialism). Both of these are here to stay, and hopefully will be improved with time.

RayAmerica says

“Dude”

Well... you can call me 'el duderino' if you're not into the whole brevity thing. So I take it you prefer "Giggles" Okay, noted. Anyway what was this thread about again?... like I say, your posts are like a lot of people wandering around like they had all the time in the world to do nothing...

Honest Abe says

I know you haven’t noticed, but whenever government gets involved to fix a problem, the “solution” just delays the real cure or makes the problem even worse.

blah blah blah... Sure, thats the standard talk radio republican line. So give us specific examples, instead of just saying what happens to sound good at the moment... reference please the recent stimulus monies taken by repub governors and the recent BP oil spill efforts. Thanks.

And back to the point of the thread near as I can figure it, hey Abe, who said this: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."?

Oh come on folks. I already posted this: the public defender is leading the charge against the transit union... in San Francisco. Welcome to underfunded nation. And then this just happened: half of Muni transit cuts (from May) were restored. Management, essentially, told the union employees to work harder. We're at a tipping point...

RayAmerica says

kentm sounds like another in a long line of well adjusted, happy, contented liberals that are just a joy to be around. Your problem seems to be that you’re still fuming over the fact that you “lost” in your bid to buy that house. Too bad that evil “flipper” out bid you by $60,000.

Kent, welcome to the club, dude. We'll teach you the secret handshake later... There will be dues, but as rayray pointed out you can afford them because you lost a bid on a house one time (in band camp).

RayAmerica says

It’s kind of the same thing with attending a social event where people dress up and there’s a woman with a nice dress on and she has tattoos.

Do you look under every woman's dress, rayray? You might be disappointed to find out that "normal" people have tattoos. And your idol Hitler gave out many of them, too.

Anyone who invokes and presumes to know what the founding fathers wanted is an asshole.

A bunch of old rich white men who owned slaves, committed all kinds of crime, and never had to work real jobs in their lives for the most part.

Those motherfuckers couldn't even be bothered to accept that black people were human.

What matters is not "what the founders wanted". Last I checked, we live in a democracy, not a theocracy. Just because some of those guys ideas were great for their time doesn't mean that they were infallible seers who knew exactly how a country should be run 250 years later.

A certain little somebody has returned to spew out her hate and lies. The trend is that more and more people are paying less and less attention to her, so her venom has increased. Very typical behavior for someone vying for much needed attention. I’ve always said, if you’re going to be mean and nasty on a meaningless forum like this, you must be very miserable in real life. Pretty sad when you think about it.

RayAmerica says

I’ve always said, if you’re going to be mean and nasty on a meaningless forum like this, you must be very miserable in real life. Pretty sad when you think about it.

Looking in the mirror again, rayray?

I'd be happy if you could just stay on topic Giggles.

Back to this:
kentm says

hey Abe, who said this: “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”?

It was Abraham Lincoln. You know, "Honest Abe"...

Nomograph says

Roads, highways, police, fire, water, sewer, airports, bridges, national defense, the Internet, satellites, nuclear power, pure food and drug laws, and such are all examples of massive government fail.

:-)

No, examples of massive government failure's are all of the failed "Stimulus programs", AmTrac, Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, Dept of Education, Cash for Clunkers, etc, etc.

Our "wise" ruling class ALWAYS know's what's better for us than we do, right Nomo? Pretty soon Big Brother will tell us what brand of tolite paper to use...or whether we can use tolite paper at all. Maybe the tree-huggers will prevail and will collapse the tolite paper industry. You know, kinda like B.O. wants to destroy the coal industry.

If enough businesses and industries can be destroyed, then government will have complete control, which is what they really want. Maybe then we can all have the socialistic utopia they envision. Welcome to 1984. Oh no, are we having Cabbage soup for dinner? AGAIN?

Nomograph says

Does that seem like normal behavior to you?

It's obviously his "normal." Normal is subjective - for example, I believe that it's normal to view a glass as half-full. Other people prefer the view that their own glass was once full, but the libs purposefully drained it and have their eyes on taking the rest. Their anger festers to the point that they must post their dismay on real estate discussion forums, waging fake battles with people they've never met (and hopefully never will, lest they have to put on their running shoes). That's their own, very dismal "normal."

Do any of you think our countries misery, which our government has created, is normal? A collapsing workforce, rising unemployment, the housing market being crushed, our currency being devalued, peoples retirement accounts being drained so families can stay afloat just a little longer, people losing their homes by the millions, government take-over of failed enterprises which are then supported by tax-payer dollars, etc. Aren't you even aware of whats happening? Do you think thats normal?

FYI, all the failed policies that created our countries problems have been engineered, "centrally planned" authorized and approved by Congress. Now that's depressingly dismal "normal" - but you libs seem perfectly OK with it, because you obviously spend a lot of time and effort defending it.

If they were "engineered" then they were engineered by conservatives policies:
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts
and you'll notice the sharpest drop in those charts is generally from 2000 onward.

Obama hasn't been great but I hate to think where the country would be currently if the policies from 2000-2009 were still in place. The excesses of the past 2 years seems to have been the only way out of the mess that'd been set up, though remember that the TARP program was set in place during the Bush years.

So where exactly would you take us? Quit bitching aimlessly and give a couple thoughts. If you want the 'gov so weak you could drown it in a bathtub' then what would you have in its place?

and you didn't mention the quote from Abe Lincoln in support of labor/unions. C'mon, I thought it was pretty witty to post that quote directly from the guy who's name you've stolen...

Nomograph says

The current standard of living enjoyed in the U.S. is FAR GREATER than any previous society has ever seen or even imagined.

The only problem is that for the most part, this "current standard of living enjoyed in the U.S." has been financed by historical levels of short and long term debt. The vast majority of Americans are in negative territory when it comes to net worth. Literally, millions are now finding out that being heavily in debt in order to finance their standard of living is a virtual nightmare in a long economic downturn.

If a private company did what our politicians do the owners or directors would be behind bars. Our politicians, virtually all of them, should lose their jobs for gross incompetence. In fact they should be prosecuted for failure to disclose, negligent misrepresentation and fraud.

Silly me, that would be in the REAL WORLD. Oops I forgot, in the world of politics, the ruling class is ABOVE the law. They get to royally screw things up, and then blame someone else.

P.S. Even a 5th grader knows you can't spend more money than you have without consequences. Well, DAH.

Governments and companies and people all operate differently. Comparing the economics of the three makes no sense whatsoever, and only someone who knows nothing of economics would do so.

Corporations can't print money or confiscate property.

Individuals can't take on billions in debt.

The rules that govern these entities are different by necessity.

Your problem is that you fail to recognize that the government is you.

You're right. Companies and people cooperate, they engage in voluntary transactions (well, other than lawyers and labor unions). Government, on the other hand, operates by force.

Your problem is that you have failed to learn, yet, that government is not your friend. It's an ever growing parasitic albatros around your neck, your childrens neck, your grandchildrens neck and even those yet to be born. It's tentacles are begining to reach into every aspect of peoples business and personal life. Our privacy is being eroded. We're losing our freedom. The grip of the IRS is tightening. Our rights are being sacrificed so we can be "safe". Our money continues to be debased. Our "empire" is so huge and our debt so massive that it's unsustainable. There is no ethics or honesty in politics. Those jerks are supposed to work for us...but the servent has become the master D.C. might as well be called the District of Corruption.

Yes, someday you'll learn that limited government is the best government. "When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear". Read, or re-read 1984 for a glimpse of what our future is starting to look like - one law, one rule, one regulation, one civil code at a time.

In my view, you're not entirely wrong in your descriptions of the potential evils of our government. Where you part company with me is your targeting liberal policy as the cause or the problem. But it's not an argument I can win because you're too much about dogma, propaganda, and a fantasy definition of liberal policies.

In my view the ideologies only differ in the emphasis of government's function. On one side (your side - even if you don't know it) is the idea that government is here to support big business and corporations and overseas adventures that are supposedly about protecting our interests and safety. On the other side, the liberal agenda is all about countering the natural alliance between big business and government with policies that protect the little guy, the worker, and the environment.

We have seen things swing too far one way or the other over time and therefore what's right at one time, isn't necessarily best 20 or 40 years later. But the fact that you see government dangerously far to the left now is truly amazing to me Abe. I see us as far to the right, and as dangerously close to a toxic corporatism as we have ever been in my life which goes back a good ways.

A final thought; if it's true as you say that government investment can never bring a good return on investment, then how will we ever repair and replace infrastructure ? Much of our infrastructure is in the public domain, that is it provides a public not for profit function. If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that you are only okay with it when it is initiated by a republican.