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When Will the Arson Begin?

By APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch follow APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   2010 Sep 8, 8:50am 6,014 views   29 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


In some US cities in the 1970s arson swept through neighborhoods with declining real estate values, as desperate speculators turned to arson for profit to wrest some value from their investments.

Now, with American properties value in cataclysmic freefall and most all homes underwater is there any financial reason for most Americans not to torch their worthless, overpriced cookiecutter shacks?

#housing

1   tatupu70   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 8, 8:59am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Other than it being against the law?

2   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2010 Sep 8, 9:06am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

The law? They learned all about that from the originators who introduced them to liars' loans. Hahahahahahahaha!

3   DHiman   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 8, 10:19am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Ever see someone burn alive? Could you imagine it being your Dad, Mom, Wife, Children, Yourself? It's not a very fast death, and if you live, its, not fun. You can say you don't care, but we all know the truth, when your ass is on fire, you would be praying to god to die

4   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2010 Sep 8, 11:02am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Oh, hey, no chance of me ever torching a house. Historically, downturns in real estate prices provoke both vandal arson as foreclosed properties stand empty and get taken over by crazy people, hookers and drug addicts and by financial opportunists in a position (or think they are in one) to profit from the destruction of an insured property. Desperate, despairing people - like most of America now - will do insane things. We must be prepared for the wholesale burning of large swaths of underwater properties.

5   Nomograph   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 8, 2:08pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

APOCALYPSE . . . FUCK . . .arson . . . desperate speculators . . . cataclysmic freefall . . . worthless . . . APOCALYPSE . . . FUCK

6   Kevin   ignore (2)   2010 Sep 8, 3:00pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Its pretty hard to burn down new construction. Fiberglass insulation isn't flammable, nor is gypsum, granite, or ceramic tile.

Not to mention the mandatory sprinkler systems on larger houses.

7   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2010 Sep 9, 12:20am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kevin,

The style I am most familiar with is 4-8 gallons of kerosene poured down the main stairway. Usually takes the roof off. This was the approach by the guys trying to help people out of the early 1970s downturn in one eastern city with which I am familiar. There's lots of reports of despairing foreclosure victims torching their buildings starting in around 2008. Maybe in the end that will be the largest motivator - rank despair. Tens of millions who've not worked a real job for most of decade, never had health insurance, turned to dealing in real estate to get rich fast and retire to Uruguay in the style of a robber baron, now freezing to death in the last house they couldn't flip, the foreclosure notices plastered all over the front and back doors and the phone, gas and electric cut, abandoned houses all around, food something that is stolen from a neighbor's garbage. . .

8   Nomograph   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 9, 12:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

The style I am most familiar with is 4-8 gallons of kerosene poured down the main stairway. Usually takes the roof off.

Sweet. Luckily this website is monitered by the FBI, so they already have your IP address.

9   a4adam   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 9, 2:54am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

The style I am most familiar with is 4-8 gallons of kerosene poured down the main stairway. Usually takes the roof off.

Are you a firefighter by any chance? They always know the best way to burn down a house.

10   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2010 Sep 9, 3:41am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

No but that knowledge comes from inspecting the aftermath and practical theory about things like burn rates of different kinds of wood.

Actually, in the arson cases I've followed state fire marshals have been involved and, in one string of arsons, a city wiring inspector who wrote up the bogus reports of wiring faults for the insurance claims and fire reports.

Firemen at least have real incomes with real benefits and real (defined benefit) pensions, probably the last people in the states who can, as a group, claim all three at once. The damned and despairing and disenfranchised will probably do the most damage in this generation.

>>>Are you a firefighter by any chance? They always know the best way to burn down a house.

11   DHiman   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 1:37am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Interesting that there is a MASSIVE FIRE in San Bruno Right Now as i type. A entire neighborhood. People I love and know live right in that area.......................... I makes more sense to rent out the foreclosed homes for cash cheap, until the bank catches on. I hope your not located near San Bruno , CA

APOCALYPSEFUCK

I am turning this forum to the FBI......

12   simchaland   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 2:23am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I sense that someone might be banned soon.

13   marcus   ignore (10)   2010 Sep 10, 3:35am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Forgetting for a minute the unethical criminal aspect of it, I don't think it's even logical. The insurance proceeds would go to the bank. There is no benefit over walking away, because the "owner" would still owe the mortgagor the amount underwater. And their credit would still be destroyed if they didn't pay it.

So unless you think banks are going to start resorting to this, I don't see it happening.

14   marcus   ignore (10)   2010 Sep 10, 3:39am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The mortgagor doesn't panic sell. If it get's down to the net present value of the rental income stream then worst case for them, they rent it out.

15   justme   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 8:43am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

simchaland says

I sense that someone might be banned soon.

Yes, agree. When can we get a "flag as impolite" at the THREAD level.

16   justme   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 8:45am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'm certainly no expert on 1970s arson, or any arson for that sake, but was that particular wave of big-city arson by commercial landlords that could sell the land for more than they could rent out the slum buildings? I don't think the situation is the same at all.

17   someone else   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 9:15am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Nomograph says

Luckily this website is monitered by the FBI, so they already have your IP address.

I never got any request for user data from the FBI, or any other agency. But I suppose the web hosting company could monitor the patrick.net web server without my knowledge, making my wishes irrelevant.

18   marcus   ignore (10)   2010 Sep 10, 9:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

We must be prepared for the wholesale burning of large swaths of underwater properties.

I think this guy is from a parallel universe where McCain won the 2008 election. Definitely not a happy camper.

19   elliemae   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 10:37am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

No but that knowledge comes from inspecting the aftermath and practical theory about things like burn rates of different kinds of wood.

So, did you get some major wood when the fire in San Bruno started?

20   TechGromit   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 1:04pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Kevin,
The style I am most familiar with is 4-8 gallons of kerosene poured down the main stairway. Usually takes the roof off. This was the approach by the guys trying to help people out of the early 1970s downturn in one eastern city with which I am familiar...

yes any moron can burn a house to the ground, but it takes someone to know what they are doing to pull it off without an arson investigator picking up on it. The old kerosene poured down the main stairway" trick is the quickest way to get some nice prison time and a denied claim from the insurance company. Now all your left with is a smoking hole in the ground and a couple years in prison.

marcus says

... The insurance proceeds would go to the bank. There is no benefit over walking away, because the “owner” would still owe the mortgagor the amount underwater. And their credit would still be destroyed if they didn’t pay it.
So unless you think banks are going to start resorting to this, I don’t see it happening.

Actually most houses that are properly insured are insured for the replacement cost of the house. So if it's cost more to rebuild the house than it's currently worth on the market, then it's reasonable to expect the insurance company is going to pay more that the current market value of the house. Also part of the insurance premium is for the replacement cost of items inside. For my own house the contents are covered for over 50% of the house coverage. Furniture, clothing, Mom's china, etc are expensive to replace. And if the fire does it job well enough, one pile of burnt furniture or plastic is pretty much like any other pile. So if the high end furniture, designer clothing, and flat screen TV is removed and in it's place you put trash picked furniture, broken TV, good will clothing, etc, after a good fire it's not going to identifiable as such.

So lets look at the figures, House cost 600k (and mortgage note is 600k), contents are insured for 250k, house is now worth 300k on the open market, cost to build another house same size 400k, house burns down, insurance pays off 400k, and 250k for contents, homeowner uses 600k to pay off mortgage note, makes 50K, has his good credit intact, has an empty lot he can sell and has apartment with all his valuables he removed from the house before it burned to the ground. Sounds pretty good to me.

It's important to note that not to strip the house then burn it down, missing furniture, electronics and clothing are not going to leave the same burned debris as stuff that's actually there to get burned.

22   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2010 Sep 10, 2:28pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TG has the plan. Another angle is the collusion of the broker. In the 1970s cases I am familiar with the broker came in and worked with the arsonist to over-insure the buildings and work with building inspectors to get the kind of determination they needed to get the owner paid off.

23   rob918   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 10, 3:36pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

I never got any request for user data from the FBI, or any other agency. But I suppose the web hosting company could monitor the patrick.net web server without my knowledge, making my wishes irrelevant.

You're right about that, Patrick. The Affiant (officer) writes a search warrant and affidavit, it gets approved by the court and is then served. Most of the time it is for the server and company that has control and custody of the server. Same with phone records.... the warrant is written to include the records from Verizon, ATT or whatever carrier handles the account.

Unless they were looking for something on your personal computer no one would show up knocking on your door. The warrant and affidavit usually lists such things, as IP addresses, billing addresses, payments recieved, service address, all stored electronic communications, email, images, buddy lists, blah, blah, blah as well as old standby and catch-all "and any other files" and "any other information on file."

24   Nomograph   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 11, 12:03am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

I never got any request for user data from the FBI, or any other agency.

You will never receive any such request. Haven't you heard of 'warrantless wiretapping'? They get the user data upstream without your permission or knowledge.

If that doesn't work, they just use the mind ray.

25   elliemae   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 11, 2:32am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Nomograph says



I never got any request for user data from the FBI, or any other agency.

You will never receive any such request. Haven’t you heard of ‘warrantless wiretapping’? They get the user data upstream without your permission or knowledge.
If that doesn’t work, they just use the mind ray.

Always the one to point out the simple explanation. Mindrays work under the same theory as do microwaves, digital cameras, and the interwebs... The theory of PFM.

Anyone?

26   TechGromit   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 13, 6:21am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says

Wrong.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_6896443_replacement-cost-fire-insurance-policy.html

http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/doi/Consumer/homeowners_guide.pdf

See Replacement Cost Coverage (on Dwelling)

Basically it says you can insure you house for a Set cash value, market value or Replacement value of your house. While the replacement value may not equal the full 600k you paid for the house, it should cover what it would cost to replace the house if you had to rebuild it from scratch. I would also like to point out that a Bank will require you to maintain an insurance policy that will cover at least the amount of mortgage note they have on the house. So a 600k house that burns to the ground should have sufficient cash value insurance to at least cover the banks mortgage note. It's the insured contents of the property is where most arsonists will make there profits on.

27   thomas.wong1986   ignore (3)   2010 Sep 13, 6:52am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

In some US cities in the 1970s arson swept through neighborhoods with declining real estate values, as desperate speculators turned to arson for profit to wrest some value from their investments.

That would have been NYC back then. But who knows if the mob was involved with that.

28   elliemae   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 13, 11:19pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Awww, no one would play with me! wahhhhh!

PFM - Pure fucking magic. It's how things work.

29   dittomichel   ignore (0)   2010 Sep 14, 1:35am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

When I read AF posts, it has crossed my mind that perhaps he is just mocking this forum. It is, after all, a crash blog. The crash of housing and the general state of the economy are the headlines. A lot of gloom and doom is discussed in a more civilized dialogue. His "plant potatoes" / end of the world dialogue I take as a joke.

Either that or he is a total lunatic who has read The Road one too many times.


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