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How incredibly insensitive and racist of you. The next thing I expect out of you is that you'll claim illegal immigration is a crime.
No one is talking about immigrant rights--they are talking about a US citizens' right to walk the streets without getting stopped and forced to prove his citizenship...
Also, people don't come here illegally because they want a free ride... Rather because we won't let them in legally...
No one is talking about immigrant rights–they are talking about a US citizens’ right to walk the streets without getting stopped and forced to prove his citizenship…
Read the bill. The police still have to have "probable cause" in order to stop people.
Also, people don’t come here illegally because they want a free ride… Rather because we won’t let them in legally…
It's illegal for them to walk through your front door too. Do you want to stop them from doing that because you won't allow them to move into your home "legally?"
Read the bill. The police still have to have “probable cause†in order to stop people.
Oh ok-- so if I have a busted tail light, it's OK to ask me for my papers?
It’s illegal for them to walk through your front door too. Do you want to stop them from doing that because you won’t allow them to move into your home “legally?â€
Huh? what are you talking about?
What is probable cause in this instance?
A lowrider?
A sombrero?
A bottle of Corona?
A chili pepper drying on a porch?
A George Hamilton tan?
A Ricky Martin bumper sticker?
A Cinco De Mayo pinata?
Or just being Caucasianally disenfranchised?
The powers that be do not want the borders closed. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush junior and Obama are all status quo politicians on this issue.
Them lib politicos sure wanted to see papers before they let any Americans enter one of those town hall meetings. Just pointing that out.
I know the law says something about legal status, but so far it's only been mexicans and mexico mentioning anything about mexicans. Are the mexicans suggesting that America's illegal invasion issue is mexican in nature? Is the mexican government upset that they may have to take back their under-class? How racist/elitist of that mexican government to not want their own mexican's back.
@Mikey,
I will be happy to keep the working family man that respects America. Have his employer be his ward/sponsor and fill out the paper work needed. Give him 3 years to pass a civics exam and know enough english to survive. If he needs anything special - medical treatment, has a child, loses work, - then his employer/sponsor is charged with taking care of the employee or selding them home properly. I like my mexican working family man neighbors. I do not like my white trash crankster neighbors neighbors. I do not like my single mother raising gangsters neighbors. I do not like the anchor baby lie being sold to lazy Americans that refuse to read the ammendments.
I do not like seeing a mexican flag flown here -- the only acceptable way is under the American flag, and that I do support.
I do not like the gov spending money to cater to non-english speakers. English is the lingo here.
I do not like lots of things, but seeing schools/jails/hospitals full of non-Americans that are not interested in becoming Americans but who are living off of the American fatted calf is one of the things I dislike the most.
How incredibly insensitive and racist of you. The next thing I expect out of you is that you’ll claim illegal immigration is a crime.
Irony Alert!
Oh ok– so if I have a busted tail light, it’s OK to ask me for my papers?
A busted tail light, as you say, is a traffic violation and provides "probable cause" for the police to stop you. If you are here legally, what's the problem with proving that you are here legally?
I agree with bap33 on a number of points. Legal immigration is the first step in proving you maybe worthy becoming a citizen. That you respect and will abide by the laws of this land. The idea of employer sponsership was the way legal entry into the united states in years gone by-the employer was responsible for his charges medical needs. Why should the rest of us pay for benefits for immigrants who benefit an employer? For illegal immigrants who say they can't gain legal entry this is bullshit. You just want to gain entry when you want-which is right now! So they break the law. Not a good start in showing your fitness for citizenship. The you get false DLs and SS cards- again breaking the law. These are not minor infractions. If I as an American citizen I can be charged with a felony for getting caught using a false ID or using someone elses SS card. I am sure a good many illegals who just want to work. However a good many who start out breaking our laws continue to break many more laws because they believe laws don't apply to the as long as they don't get caught. As far as the Mexican government goes how pathetic is it they complain that we should make it easier for illegals to cross our border? Shouldn't they be trying to figure out a way to get the Mexican citizens to stay and work there? Oh wait, how silly of me. The money illegals send home is what, about 25% of their national income?
A busted tail light, as you say, is a traffic violation and provides “probable cause†for the police to stop you. If you are here legally, what’s the problem with proving that you are here legally?
Well, what do I need to prove I'm here legally? Does an out of state Drs. license work? Do I need to carry a passport everywhere if I go to AZ--should I treat it like another country? What if I don't have a passport? How exactly would I prove it?
A busted tail light, as you say, is a traffic violation and provides “probable cause†for the police to stop you. If you are here legally, what’s the problem with proving that you are here legally?
Well, what do I need to prove I’m here legally? Does an out of state Drs. license work? Do I need to carry a passport everywhere if I go to AZ–should I treat it like another country? What if I don’t have a passport? How exactly would I prove it?
The law seems to be a bit scarey, in that the law requires citizenship to be verified any time a person is stopped. The "stopped" part is what scares me - but I guess we're at the point where we can be pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt. The law can always find a reason to stop someone, if not they'll make it up.
But I digress - it seems to be a law that will cost Arizona quite a bit of money at a time when it can least afford it. They're gonna have to hold the people while the feds figure out what to do - because I don't believe that Arizona can deport someone, the feds have to. (but I haven't read the law, either). We'll have to see how it plays out.
Something that's overlooked about illegals who use someone else's social security number is that it boosts the retirement income of the person whose number they're using. That's the "up" side. The "down" side is the patient in a nursing home whose social security number is being used - Medicaid can use the reported income as the patient's income. Seriously - I encountered the situation recently and the medicaid worker said the patient's family needed to stop the income and prove it wasn't theirs - but when the family called Social Security they said it wasn't their problem. The local police said it wasn't their problem either. No decision has been made.
BTW, I don't know if it was an illegal that's doing it - it could be anyone. But I can see where this could happen...
Mexican low wage labor is virtually illiterate in many instances. How will they learn a new language and pass exams?
Wetbacks--no offense to my beaner peeps--want to make money and take it back home. They don't want to be citizens here but they make more money here than south of the border.
If Mexico had enough good jobs, workers would stay in their home country, which they love and where their family resides. Their culture means a lot to them.
The problem is drug runners and fugitives sneaking across. America would benefit by not purchasing illicit drugs.
Mexican low wage labor is virtually illiterate in many instances. How will they learn a new language and pass exams?
Even in the recession, I dare say most people wouldn't do the labor that these illegals do for even twice the wages.
Just legalize use and make available by perscription. Users pay of course. Then when somebody tries to import or manufacture just put them in the penitentary for twenty years or so. Illegal profits dry up drug gangs disappear. The hardcore criminals will find something else but there'll be alot more money to hunt them down. Oh, and just legalize pot outright. Same as alcohol except allow growing.
What is probable cause in this instance?
A lowrider?
A sombrero?
A bottle of Corona?
Probable cause - http://www.youtube.com/embed/lRhDEjH7XzA
Even in the recession, I dare say most people wouldn’t do the labor that these illegals do for even twice the wages.
Only true because she "feels" it's true, not because there is even a shred of factual evidence to support that assertion. Average per pupil cost to educate children of illegal aliens is $8,000 - $14,000 per year per student, depending on where in the US that they live.. Not including "free" healthcare and free lunches. For a family which earns maybe $20k/year total and pays little or no taxes. They're a net drag on the system in a huge way, and they're here ILLEGALLY in violation of our laws. Not to mention that they drag down wages for American workers. Here in Houston, average carpenter wage (after about 10 yrs experience, you finally work your way up to "average") is only $14/hour. I can't prove it, but that relatively low wage for carpenters is almost certainly another cost resulting from illegal immigration that doesn't ever come through in the official "costs"
ZippyDDoodah says
For a family which earns maybe $20k/year total and pays little or not taxes
If they're using someone else's ssn and working for a legitimate company, they're paying taxes. And not filing.
elliemae:Even in the recession, I dare say most people wouldn’t do the labor that these illegals do for even twice the wages.
Zippy: Only true because she “feels†it’s true, not because there is even a shred of factual evidence to support that assertion.
ZippyDDoodah says
I can’t prove it, but that relatively low wage for carpenters is almost certainly another cost resulting from illegal immigration that doesn’t ever come through in the official “costsâ€
Pot. Kettle. Black.
If they’re using someone else’s ssn and working for a legitimate company, they’re paying taxes. And not filing.
They're filing for tax credits so that they not only pay no taxes, they receive credits to offset the $1,000/year that they paid into SS. Illegals are a huge net drag on our system.. and that's even before you consider that 17% of those in federal prison are illegal aliens. God Bless Arizona.
If they’re using someone else’s ssn and working for a legitimate company, they’re paying taxes. And not filing.They’re filing for tax credits so that they not only pay no taxes, they receive credits to offset the $1,000/year that they paid into SS. Illegals are a huge net drag on our system.. and that’s even before you consider that 17% of those in federal prison are illegal aliens. God Bless Arizona.
They often don't file for taxes because they'll get caught. The IRS and the INS are two different things.
Zippy, why is it that you attack people for stating opinion, and attack when they back it up with facts - while you freely spout your anecdotes and expect that we'll accept them just because you say so?
Who was it that said, "the plural of anecdote is not data?"
They often don’t file for taxes because they’ll get caught.
Please define "not often" in percentages. Because the IRS encourages them to file, and they pay out massive amounts of $$$ in tax credits to illegals
Zippy, why is it that you attack people for stating opinion, and attack when they back it up with facts
ellie, you're as dishonest as they come. You make assertions, not simply opinions, and when challenged, you falsely accuse me of doing the same. Anyone reading these threads can see who you are.
Illegal immigrants cashing in on federal tax credits, study shows http://ur.lc/j0j
Large numbers of illegal immigrants file tax returns using phony Social Security numbers to cash in on the federal Earned Income Tax Credit, thanks to lax government management, according to the author of a new study
ellie, you’re as dishonest as they come.
I get it, Zippy. You dislike me. Since I don't know you and have little respect for you based on your posts thus far, your attacks on me and other who disagree with you really don't matter. But calling me dishonest simply because I stated my opinon is rather telling of your agenda. You're amongst friends here, as long as you realize that we enjoy intelligent discussions and welcome intelligent people who participate in them.
A discussion, by the way, is one where people are able to introduce information without being called dishonest merely because we disagree with your narrow view of the world.
Again, elliemae says
elliemae:Even in the recession, I dare say most people wouldn’t do the labor that these illegals do for even twice the wages.
Zippy: Only true because she “feels†it’s true, not because there is even a shred of factual evidence to support that assertion.
ZippyDDoodah saysI can’t prove it, but that relatively low wage for carpenters is almost certainly another cost resulting from illegal immigration that doesn’t ever come through in the official “costsâ€
FYI, when I say "I dare say" it's my opinion. Just like when you say "I can't prove it..."
Hence my comment, "Pot. Kettle. Black."
Go ahead and attack away, as you've proven you will. It detracts from whatever message you might have, if you have one...
I get it, Zippy. You dislike me
It's not a simple matter of "liking" or "disliking". You've demonstrated that you're dishonest as you can be. Once your "side" is shown to be less than attractive, your attacks become personal and you make unsubstantiated claims. When challenged, instead of providing citations or evidence you make it "personal" as anyone reading your posts can see. Note how I cite my claims with facts, and I can cite other claims I've made with facts if challenged because I'm telling the truth. But you're so dishonest that you're not interested in facts or truth
Illegal immigrants cashing in on federal tax credits, study shows http://ur.lc/j0j
Large numbers of illegal immigrants file tax returns using phony Social Security numbers to cash in on the federal Earned Income Tax Credit, thanks to lax government management, according to the author of a new study
I don't know enough about this guy to trust or distrust his study.
@Zipp
I say ellie is honest. And she is normally very respectful and kind. She is a fine person and supports her (for lack of a better term) liberal stance pretty darn well. You should be kind too, in my opinion. In this invader issue she admits to not being at "ground zero", so her experience is a little different than someone in the middle of the poop. The invasion is like realestate -- it's local.
@ Mikey,
you are correct.
I get it, Zippy. You dislike me
It’s not a simple matter of “liking†or “dislikingâ€. You’ve demonstrated that you’re dishonest as you can be. Once your “side†is shown to be less than attractive, your attacks become personal and you make unsubstantiated claims. When challenged, you make it “personal†as anyone reading your posts can see. Note how I cite my claims with facts, and I can cite other claims I’ve made with facts if challenged because I’m telling the truth. But you’re so dishonest that you’re not interested in facts or truth
Yep, calling some woman a liar on an interweb real estate forum must make you feel awesome. I do wonder - since you say your piece and believe that's all that needs to be said, why do you continue to post? One post oughta do it, 'cause you're right - damn it. You're obviously not interested in anything anyone else has to say.
Calling me a liar is a personal attack. Just because I disagree with you, as many have before me (and I suspect many after me will as well), I'm not a liar.
You’ve demonstrated that you’re dishonest as you can be
Actually, I can be very dishonest. Just ask my parents when, in high school, they asked if I'd been drinking.
I don’t know enough about this guy to trust or distrust his study.
Then maybe you shouldn't go around making unsupported statemements like this:
They often don’t file for taxes because they’ll get caught
Yep, calling some woman a liar on an interweb real estate forum must make you feel awesome.
You've made dishonest claims that you won't own up to, and you have deliberately mischaracterized statements that I've made. You're not an honest person by any reasonable measure.
Yep, calling some woman a liar on an interweb real estate forum must make you feel awesome.
You’ve made dishonest claims that you won’t own up to, and you have deliberately mischaracterized statements that I’ve made. You’re not an honest person by any reasonable measure.
as long as you continue to make personal attacks on me and others don't expect to be taken seriously. Do you notice that no one else is responding? It's not because you've made a point. It's because you're not worth responding to.
I'm not lying.
Hey Bap33, when ellie makes statements like this,
Zippy, why is it that you attack people for stating opinion, and attack when they back it up with facts
how do you claim she's "honest" when she claims that those opinions are "backed up with facts" when you can plainly see that they're not? Is that honest in your book?
Let's take this claim from ellie
They often don’t file for taxes because they’ll get caught.
Not a big deal, but when asked to quantify how "often" they don't file for taxes to substantiate her claim, she just moves to personal insults
Let’s take this claim from ellie
They often don’t file for taxes because they’ll get caught.
Not a big deal, but when asked to quantify how “often†they don’t file for taxes to substantiate her claim, she just moves to personal insults
Zippy - once again, you're late to the party. Perhaps you should study Patnet for the past three years, and you'll see that you're not the only person to claim that you're a victim of unsympathetic liberals. Whining about others being dishonest doesn't support your claim of... what was your claim?
By the way, I'll give you a pass this time - but next time look this shit up on your own time:
http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://news.jornal.us/article-4671.Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-Billion-in-Taxes--Immigration-Reform-could-be-the-reason---Video.html
And lastly - it would appear that perhaps some of the illegal immigrants in this country are treated better than some of the American Indians on reservations. And that’s pathetic.
agreed.
Utah has a lot of farms and day laborers. We also have few jobs for anyone - but we have few illegals compared to AZ and other places. We have 3 bigger Cities - Salt Lake, Provo, Ogden - and the rest of the state is fairly rural. So I don't know alot about how it is with tons of illegals. $20 an hour for a sub at Home Depot is great wages out here - a good job around here is one that pays over $10/hr. By the way, our 3 bigger cities total 2 million people (2008 census) - about 80% of the state's population and could fit in a corner of the Bay area alone.
I don't have a problem with following immigration policies, I just have a problem with the groupthink that will land a bunch of illegals in jail without a plan. I don't know how to fix the problems - but I'm frightened at the thought of someone being pulled over because they look like they might be an illegal alien. "They" say it won't happen, but it will.
I say ellie is honest. And she is normally very respectful and kind. She is a fine person and supports her (for lack of a better term) liberal stance pretty darn well.
I think we can all have an honest debate without resorting to sarcasm. Shame on you.
Ray--
You never answered me. What do I need to carry with me if I go to AZ to prove I'm legal?
taty ...
You can rest and sleep soundly; you won't be required to carry a "passport" as you claim if you travel to AZ. I take it that you are in fact a U.S. citizen. If you were driving through AZ in a car, you would be required to have a thing called a Driver's License, along with Certificate of Insurance, Vehicle Registration (if you own the car), etc. IF, and that is a BIG IF, you are stopped due to some probable cause such as a traffic violation, all of these documents would be required to be produced in all 50 states, not just AZ. It is already on their books. If you are here illegally, it is highly unlikely you will have ANY of the above documentation. In that case, the officer in AZ would have the right to ask for supporting documentation to determine if you are here legally or not. I don’t see any problem with that.
You can rest and sleep soundly; you won’t be required to carry a “passport†as you claim if you travel to AZ. I take it that you are in fact a U.S. citizen. If you were driving through AZ in a car, you would be required to have a thing called a Driver’s License, along with Certificate of Insurance, Vehicle Registration (if you own the car), etc. IF, and that is a BIG IF, you are stopped due to some probable cause such as a traffic violation, all of these documents would be required to be produced in all 50 states, not just AZ. It is already on their books. If you are here illegally, it is highly unlikely you will have ANY of the above documentation. In that case, the officer in AZ would have the right to ask for supporting documentation to determine if you are here legally or not. I don’t see any problem with that.
OK--you realize that illegals can and do have drivers licenses. Some states don't require proof of citizenship to obtain one...
Oh ok– so if I have a busted tail light, it’s OK to ask me for my papers?
A busted tail light, as you say, is a traffic violation and provides “probable cause†for the police to stop you. If you are here legally, what’s the problem with proving that you are here legally?
I'm with Ray on this. More should be done to identify and deport these Illegal aliens, if we have to sacrifice some freedoms to do it, I'm all for it. We can no longer afford illegal immigrates, not that we really could afford them before. While they pay some taxes, such as State sales taxes on products, they avoid many other taxes that other legal citizen must pay. While I wouldn't mind that, they take advantage of public service they don't pay for. From emergency medical care to the enrollment of there children in public schools, the tax burden is killing those of us that pay, if there were no (or less) illegal immigrates, then the demand for public services would be less, and these tax rates would be lower for those of us that pay taxes.
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http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_14998618?source=rss
All this talk about immigrant rights and people acting like there are no laws that allow for immigration here in the US. Sure there is. I have worked with many people who have come to the US by following the rules and regulations of the country.
I did the same thing a number of years ago when I worked in the UK for a year. It took some effort on my part but I had a legal work visa to work in England (London) and I paid the taxes of the land.
http://www.edinahigh70.org/woking/
I guess the illegals want a free ride.