patrick.net

If I owned my own home, the natural gas version would be on the top of my list as a local commuter. Put a Phill Station in your garage for CHEAP fills.

Phill by FuelMaker

Keep a map of local CNG stations and an access card just in case though of course. Which seems kinda silly/inconvenient at first glance, but then I review my own trip planning and realize my gas-up plans revolve around fitting in CostCo at the right points because that's where I almost always get gas. Like if I go to Monterey I know either coming or going I'll probably stop in Vacaville Costco it's close to the highway. Most cities have one or more CNG fill stations for all those buses and delivery vehicles, you just probably don't know that you can get an access card too.

yeah, the taxis in Tokyo have a natgas tank in the trunk.

gallon of gasoline has 114,000 BTU.

Henry Hub price of natgas is $4.40 per million BTU . . . we're looking at 40c per gallon equivalent here, LOL.

I remember seeing that gasoline price when I was a wee lad . . . back before Mr Nixon took us off the gold standard . . .

40 cents a gallon equivalent? Wow. I think it was T. Boone Pickens that suggested we convert the trucking industry to NG.

Footnote, had a friend who travelled in Africa and CNG conversions were common where he was. There's some downsides to CNG, it's bulkier so shorter distances and larger tank. But CNG doesn't "go bad" the way gasoline degrades if it sits too long. On the whole I'm attracted to the idea of never having to plan trips around fill stations for local travel. So PHEV is good too, although I'm leery of the exotic batteries to get a lot of those on the road, well China becomes a choke point for all the rare earths. Hope I didn't divert your thread there jvolstad. I am holding off until 2012 as well, if not later. I hate to throw out a perfectly good 1997 Camry before it's hit 300K miles.

It'd better be lithium polymer rather than lithium ion, and better not be chinese made. Not sure about fuel economy too since, how much is the cost of replacing the battery pack and how often is that? This is honda's first attempt for hybrid system, and buying 1st generation stuff is always risky. I think I will wait till 2015 or so. (I hope my 1999 mercury is doing ok till then) CNG is great idea though, I have to pass that option too since I never seen a single CNG station yet in the east.

Honda vs. Toyota, if you ask me, I am a honda guy. My 86 accord was just great car. But, what's up with the design, especially for civic? It's getting more and more generic to compare with others in the class.

seaside says

CNG is great idea though, I have to pass that option too since I never seen a single CNG station yet in the east.

Where do you live?

Out here in California, most cities have one at PG&E offices. The one here in Davis is publicly accessible.

Varies by state of course, in my old state of Georgia you're pretty much SOL outside of Atlanta.

Northern VA 15 miles south from DC.
It is funny place. Everything is being said and done, but nothing is quite done right. I'd be surprised if washington gas did things right. :-) You know, I don't drive much and my driving route is pretty much fixed.

Vicente says

If I owned my own home, the natural gas version would be on the top of my list as a local commuter. Put a Phill Station in your garage for CHEAP fills.

Honda's own comparison website shows a $7,000 cost advantage for a "comparably equipped" Civic LX plus what I'm sure is a substantial cost for the refuelling gadget. I suspect the main appeal for California buyers won't be cost, but single-driver access to the HOV lanes through 2015 :-) I looked at the GX but for pretty much anything other than local commuting, it just doesn't have the range or refuelling options, and renting a car every time I wanted to go out of town would add up on top of the extra cost of the GX itself :-(

@jvolstad

Just curious, what is your 2001 Honda Civic HX getting for gas mileage?

Jvolstad,

At 6'5 you may consider that even smallish German cars are designed for fairly tall people, as long as you do not need the backseat room, as you mentioned with reference to your Civic.

The 2012 Civic Hybrid looks good, but how about a clean diesel:

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta/2011/features-specs.html?style=&sub=diesel

This car is rated 30/42 mpg, but people report as much as 50mpg (tdiforum.com), if you drive it efficiently.

There is also a 2012 model-year VW Passat with clean diesel engine option coming out later this year. maybe around mid-year. Should be roomier than both Civic and Jetta. And it is reported to get 31/43 mpg EPA numbers, even better than the Jetta.

A while back I read about compressed air cars - I talked with a left wingnut about this who was really into all-electric and he poo-pooed it out of hand but never gave a real reason as to why. Anyone ever run into one of these? Not sure if they've made it past concept but as far as I can see the real reason we are stuck on gasoline is because of the high amount of energy stored in it. Whether it be batteries or compressed air or anything else that can be dreamed up as an alternative energy storage mechanism, I care very little as long as it is 1) safe and 2) doesn't make us dependent on just another worldwide kookdom and 3) does not raise transportation costs significantly. I see people driving around in "Smart Cars" but they scream "death trap" to me for some reason.

Eightball,

Batteries already have higher energy density (Joule/kg) than compressed air storage tanks, and then there are the heat losses inherent in compressing the air.

More details at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage#Energy_density_and_efficiency

Compressed air vehicles are therefore (predictably) not doing so well in terms of efficiency nor range

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_vehicles#Disadvantages

There are thoughts using compressed air storage to serve peak electricity demand, but the context there is to use large underground caves that are well insulated by nature. Still, there are plenty of losses along the way. I'm not so sure that compressed air storage is the wave of the future,

Troy says

Henry Hub price of natgas is $4.40 per million BTU . . . we’re looking at 40c per gallon equivalent here, LOL.

PG&E (Pacific gas and Electric, northern California utility company) sells CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) for vehicles sat a price that they say is equivalent to $2.48/gal for gasoline. That's a lot more than the $0.40/gal number bandied about above.

Reference: PGE February 2011 prices

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/GRF0211.pdf

JVolstad: I don't trust T. Boone Pickens to have anyone's best interest in mind but his own, and I don't trust him with respect to energy efficiency.

If you like to have 2 cars, I like the idea of:

Nissan Leaf for local use & efficiency.
Honda/Toyota gas car for ranged use & convenience.

For an all-in-one, the Chevy Volt looks good as far as hybrid technologies. Electric drives the wheels always. The gas motor when it cranks up, just acts as a generator. So it's designed to run at one efficient speed, not a range of less efficient speeds. OTOH, it's a Chevy and a first gen product.

American in Japan says

@jvolstad
Just curious, what is your 2001 Honda Civic HX getting for gas mileage?

I usually get at least 35 mpg. 40 mpg on the hghway. My transmission is a CVT.

justme says

Jvolstad,
At 6′5 you may consider that even smallish German cars are designed for fairly tall people, as long as you do not need the backseat room, as you mentioned with reference to your Civic.
The 2012 Civic Hybrid looks good, but how about a clean diesel:
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta/2011/features-specs.html?style=&sub=diesel
This car is rated 30/42 mpg, but people report as much as 50mpg (tdiforum.com), if you drive it efficiently.
There is also a 2012 model-year VW Passat with clean diesel engine option coming out later this year. maybe around mid-year. Should be roomier than both Civic and Jetta. And it is reported to get 31/43 mpg EPA numbers, even better than the Jetta.

I would not mind a diesel. When I was working in the UK, I saw some pretty cool diesel powered cars. Why can't we get some of those here in the States?

Hybrid cars as they have to become realized in this era, is huge a Joke. The Geo got almost twice the MPG and it was all combustion.

Hybrid cars personifies every thing is that is horribly wrong with our Society when it comes to Politicizing policy to make Stock holders even more filthy rich, while putting a heavy debt burden on the poor assholes buying these cars. My friend just paid his off, and had to come up with 6K at the end of the loan, or they were going to take the car.

Everyone wants a car that is energy efficient, these hybrids are that car. What it is, is a political boondoggle where the Government has to give people incentives to buy a car over valued by 75%, Chevy made the Volt, which has a Battery that cost more than what the average American family should be paying for a new car anyway. $10,000 for the battery alone, Toyota Prius, gets what 35mph? The Geo got like 50mph, I think even the K-Car beat the Prius in MPG as well.

Actually, the 2010 Prius gets 50mpg.

@seaside
I hope you're joking about lithium polymer batteries vs lithium ion. We aren't anywhere near ready to use those batteries. They pack a huge amount of energy into a small battery. I also have a huge fire insurance claim to having one of those. They're dangerous as hell when used properly. If you drop one, you are recommended to throw it out. That's just "drop".

@jvolstad
Diesel cars in europe run off a different standard of diesel, I believe within the last couple of years we have switched over here to the requirements those cars need and thus we're starting to see more diesel cars over here. It had to do with ultra low suffer requirements. Diesel has about 30% more energy than gas, hence why they go further. The new cars are awesome. Don't forget the gallon here vs europe is different, so mpg is off, but they are still good.

@justme
Those gas prices include highway gas taxes, which hooking up to your house does not. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to pull it from your house. Not positive on that one, but I remember cities getting annoyed with people filling up with "bio" diesel and then stating how cheap it was. It was cheap because it circumvented all the taxes we pay. In some places it's cheaper to go buy cooking oil than diesel for this very reason. I remember a lot more natural gas/cng cars years ago, but they seem to have lost interest.

@eightball
I think the air compressed cars are probably a little over hyped in their ranges, but they look interesting. The thing about them is you can charge anywhere, and quickly. It's super easy to pull up to an "air station" and do a fill up, just like gas. It could be pre-compressed and simply transferred to your car, unlike batteries which require recharging. I think they even inject some gas into them to increase efficiency as well? On the couple interesting articles I saw, they added the gas to heat the air, which caused it to expand even further/faster than it normally would by just uncompressing.

@jvolstad
I think there are three competing types of hybrids out there. Leaf is full on electric, which is good if you're a city driver and have a second car. If you used it to commute every day and had a 30-60 mile commute, it would be nice and pay for itself. The volt has an interesting mix, it's trying to be both a car with unlimited range and a fully electric. I think it's a mess, with a cost that is much too high for what it is. 40 miles is okay range if you can get to work and charge, but if you're commute isn't far enough, it'll be hard to rack up the daily miles to justify the costs. The electric engine to keep people "happy" about a limited range just adds complexity and costs that aren't necessary, cut the battery back or put a huge battery in and dump the gas engine. The new prius with 7? or 15? mile range and plugin looks the most interesting. Basically enough to get to work for many people, and a gas engine for the rest of the trips. The current generation is pretty neat, and I would like to get one of those even. Definitely some interesting cars out there, I think a slight longer range prius would be the ultimate way to go. Of course it's only a matter of time before plugins get the highway gas taxes included though.

jvolstad says

Why can’t we get some of those here in the States?

It is partially because of the strict emissions rules in California, NY, Vermont and Massachusetts plus several more states that have joined lately. The NOx requirements was a technical difficulty. Only Audi, BMW, Mercedes and VW have regular diesel cars for sale in the US. There may be more coming, but it is taking too long. Pretty much every car maker in the world sells diesel cars in Europe. Over 50% of all cars sold in Europe are diesel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

jvolstad says

I usually get at least 35 mpg. 40 mpg on the hghway. My transmission is a CVT.

This means you drive quite efficiently. I would not be surprised if you got averaged 45-50 mpg in a VW with a TDI engine.

pkennedy says

Diesel has about 30% more energy than gas, hence why they go further.

No, diesel has 10-11% higher energy density than gasoline, not 30%.

Diesel engines are however typically 30% more efficient than gasoline engines, and that is measuring and comparing EnergyOutput/EnergyInput where EnergyInput already accounts for the higher energy content of diesel fuel.

There are multiple reasons for higher efficiency of diesel, and the physics/thermodynamics are somewhat complicated, but one important factor is that diesel engines operate at higher compression levels, and this translates directly into higher thermodynamic efficiency.

Pkennedy, also, compressed air cars are NOT efficient. You need to read and understand the physics. Some of the stuff you say just isn't right, sorry.

Tenouncetrout says

Hybrid cars as they have to become realized in this era, is huge a Joke. The Geo got almost twice the MPG and it was all combustion.
Hybrid cars personifies every thing is that is horribly wrong with our Society when it comes to Politicizing policy to make Stock holders even more filthy rich, while putting a heavy debt burden on the poor assholes buying these cars. My friend just paid his off, and had to come up with 6K at the end of the loan, or they were going to take the car.
Everyone wants a car that is energy efficient, these hybrids are that car. What it is, is a political boondoggle where the Government has to give people incentives to buy a car over valued by 75%, Chevy made the Volt, which has a Battery that cost more than what the average American family should be paying for a new car anyway. $10,000 for the battery alone, Toyota Prius, gets what 35mph? The Geo got like 50mph, I think even the K-Car beat the Prius in MPG as well.

TOT, I agree that Chevy Volt is a lousy car. It gets 37mpg if driven with the gas engine. It is just a horrible idea all around. It is just a marketing ploy to convince the US public that GM actually could do something good, and marketed as such during the depth of GM desperation in 2007-2008. The general public and their elected politicos just are not sophisticated enough to see through the flaws of Chevy Volt. Only slowly has the real picture emerged in the press.

But, pretty much everything else you said is somewhere between just flawed and really, really wrong. I wish you were not so anti-science (cf. other recent thread on science).

If you have a science education and understand math, physics and chemistry, you will also be well on your way to understand energy efficiency (and lack thereof) in cars and other transportation vehicles.

pkennedy says

Those gas prices include highway gas taxes, which hooking up to your house does not. I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to pull it from your house

The equivalent price of $2.48/gal is from a PGE filling station, not a jerry-rigged CNG compressor hooked up to your house. One would think any highway tax is included.

What is the REAL car technology that we should be using, you may ask?

The answer, I firmly believe is a diesel-electric hybrid. A decent sized diesel-electric car can get 70mpg with today's technology.

They are coming, but the US as usual is far behind the rest of the world in introducing good car technology.
Some recent examples:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/05/08/citroen-hypnos-test-drive-diesel-hybrid-concept-cars-got-a-lot/

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/27/volvo-to-unveil-diesel-v60-plug-in-hybrid-at-geneva-motor-show

VW and Peugot also have prototypes.

There is an unfortunate trend that some of the manufacturers are perverting the concept and making muscle cars of this type with 200hp and 60mpg instead of 100hp and getting 80mpg, but one can hope they will do the right thing eventually.

In short: Get all cars to 60+ mpg using mild hybrid-diesel technology and we have bought ourselves enough time with respect to CO2 emissions and oil dependence that we can get working on the next quantum step in efficiency.

Tesla and Chevy Volt are not the answer. Prius is good, TDI clean diesel is good, Leaf is decent for its limited uses, but too costly for the average consumer. Hybrid-diesel is low cost and very efficient and is the REAL solution that can be introduced NOW, within the next 2 years, if we can only stop doing all the bad alternatives.

If you have not noticed already, transportation efficiency is a topic I think is of the utmost importance and that I care deeply about. Let's not screw this up any more than we already have.

justme says

But, pretty much everything else you said is somewhere between just flawed and really, really wrong. I wish you were not so anti-science (cf. other recent thread on science).

Woah When did I say I was "Anti Science"?

Tenouncetrout says

justme says

But, pretty much everything else you said is somewhere between just flawed and really, really wrong. I wish you were not so anti-science (cf. other recent thread on science).

Woah When did I say I was “Anti Science”?

You didn't say so yourself. However you made statements on the other thread that most scientists would call anti-science.

Tenouncetrout says

“american society has become increasingly hostile towards science and technology.”

No they haven’t, Politics has grabbed hold of the Scientific community and are using them as their Papal guidance. Science has become a Zealot church of the Liberals.

I'll be happy to welcome you in the pro-science camp. Some people who are scientists may have an agenda that you disagree with. Don't let that interfere with understanding and believing basic facts of science and established laws of nature.

I'd get a Volt if I needed a car and it were available in a 2 door model, and not in it's first generation.

justme says

Pkennedy, also, compressed air cars are NOT efficient. You need to read and understand the physics. Some of the stuff you say just isn’t right, sorry.

You seem to know quite a bit about this...thank you for sharing. When you say it is inefficient, are you talking about tank->road efficiency (energy transfer to make you "go") or somewhere up the food chain (i.e. during the "compressing" stage)?

Just looked up diesel and you're correct it's only about 12% more energy. 30% was general rule of thumb for more efficiency. I think the sulfur here might cause the problems, in general diesel burns far cleaner than regular gas but produces more soot.

As far as air cars being efficient, I didn't say they were efficient, I said that to increase efficiency they injected gas, but it should have been worded as more power really. The gas injection just caused the air to expand further, thus creating more power in the actual engine. It's not the efficiency that is a concern with those, it's the fact that we can compress air with a lot of technologies/energy sources and we can store it for long periods of time and we can transfer it quickly. Much like gas, you can go to a gas station and fill up, but with electricity you need some way to recharge batteries without destroying them and you also need a massive amount of energy "ready" to put into them, storage wouldn't really be practical, so it would require real time pulling from the grid, which means higher peak loads during the day, which is what plug in cars at home are trying to avoid. So air stations would be feasible, and could be done at home or outside, while always consuming off peak energy needs.

I dont believe we have enough diesel to run that many cars off it. It's a byproduct of gas and used in major transportation. I think switching many people to it might be an issue, but I could be wrong there.

The leaf has a lot of good uses, for 99% of our yearly driving needs it hits the mark. Only when we do weekend getaway/road trips does it become an issue. Volt only gets that mileage because of the heavy weight of batteries. It would probably do well without them. Tesla is right on track I think. 300 mile ranges are good for most road trips, assuming a few charge stations are put in place. 300 miles is like 5 hours of driving, you can recharge like 80% in a few hours, so you run for 300 miles, get out and eat for 45 minutes and you've got yourself another 100-150 miles probably. Now you're at 450 miles per day of traveling, not too shabby. Charge over night and you're done. I could do the SF-LA run basically, which is pretty good I think.

The problem arises when you need to do 600 miles a day in an all electric, but that is pretty hard driving and probably not done by many people. A simple solution that I'm sure 3rd party people will come up with is extra batteries in a trailer OR a mini engine in a trailer. I've read a few places that about 20hp should sustain highway speeds. So get a 10-20hp engine and charge up your batteries while you're driving. That should give you nearly double the distance, or unlimited distance. If you stop for dinner and charge you could get another say 100 electric miles, or about 400 electric per day, but nearly unlimited driving. This is more or less what the volt does, but it's not giving you a lot of electric distance for normal trips, which is where it loses out. The tesla is pretty much perfect, other than the 100K price tag :)

justme, A bit like waiting for Godot. The good news is that companies like Mercedes are hybridizing their high end diesels (not just concept cars) so that will (eventually!) trickle down. At this point, I'd settle for a Golf BlueMotion TDI. Basic start/stop technology coupled with regenerative braking gives a nice bang for the buck. Not available in the US, of course.

pkennedy says

I think the sulfur here might cause the problems, in general diesel burns far cleaner than regular gas but produces more soot.

Ultra Law Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) has been the law in California since 2006 and since 2010 _all_ highway-sold diesel must be ULSD in all 50 states.

http://www.clean-diesel.org/highway.html

I must say, I do like how the prius is always turning off it's engine when it's stopped. I think that would be a huge bonus for congested traffic if it spread to more cars.

EightBall says

justme says

Pkennedy, also, compressed air cars are NOT efficient. You need to read and understand the physics. Some of the stuff you say just isn’t right, sorry.

You seem to know quite a bit about this…thank you for sharing. When you say it is inefficient, are you talking about tank->road efficiency (energy transfer to make you “go”) or somewhere up the food chain (i.e. during the “compressing” stage)?

Both stages are inefficient. You lose too much energy compressing the air, storing it (heat escapes), and in the engine. Altogether it is worse than an electric car with current battery technology. Wikipedia link above is an ok starting point for understanding.

pkennedy says

I must say, I do like how the prius is always turning off it’s engine when it’s stopped. I think that would be a huge bonus for congested traffic if it spread to more cars.

Yup. It's coming. Several European higher-end models now have start-stop technology even in regular and diesel cars, and some of them use Ultracapacitors to reuse some kinetic energy for the restart.

Science is like Guns, Science doesn't kill people, people using Science Kills people.
The sun is going to set and shine. That's not my problem. You wanna make a car that can change the world and make other technologies and products that has a smaller footprint, then go right ahead. That's very Noble, I would defiantly join the cause.

Wanna create cap and trade, and mandate expensive less efficient cars, and half ass develop things.
Do all of the things that yes are possible, but don't lecture me on Science when discussing politics, while we got a Washington full of Democrats, ignoring the MATH. It's hard to pay attention to the "data" and charts, while there's a Fucking Circus going on out side the window. And your Clowns are square in the middle of the Ring.

Tenouncetrout says

but don’t lecture me on Science when discussing politics, while we got a Washington full of Democrats, ignoring the MATH.

We'll just have to disagree on that one. I think it is mostly Republicans that ignore math. Not that Democrats are very good at it, either, just not as bad. Many Democrats believe in Chevy Volt, for example. Chevy Volt is not a real solution to anything, just a waste of natural resources and tax rebates. I think you and I can agree on that one, at least. Same thing goes for Tesla.

Compressing air isn't supposed to be more efficient than electric, it's way cheaper than dealing with batteries, lighter in terms of weight, works with current technology, can be filled at home, or instantly at a filling station. So worse efficiency, but gains everywhere else. That is what makes it interesting.

Tenouncetrout says

but don’t lecture me on Science when discussing politics, while we got a Washington full of Democrats, ignoring the MATH.

LOL. Want to see some math, TOT?

Total Debt to GDP

@Troy

That graph is something... but I need to remember that the bottom of the y-axis is 1.0 not 0.0.

cheers