patrick.net

I am not saying that this is a battle between parties: Democrat versus Republican.

No, it's not about D vs. R. I posted in another thread an article I mostly agreed with by David Brooks. I also mostly agree with this piece by Nicholas Kristof, who is a pretty liberal columnist for the Times:

...Look, I’m not a fan of teachers’ unions. They used their clout to gain job security more than pay, thus making the field safe for low achievers. Teaching work rules are often inflexible, benefits are generous relative to salaries, and it is difficult or impossible to dismiss teachers who are ineffective....

...Indeed, it makes sense to cut corners elsewhere to boost teacher salaries. ..

...Teaching is unusual among the professions in that it pays poorly but has strong union protections and lockstep wage increases. It’s a factory model of compensation, and critics are right to fault it. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?hp

Frankly I am appalled by Ms. Schripsema statement that teachers should not be paid on performance. She's narrowly equating that with the standardized testing, and "teaching to the test", which are problems but are not the only ways to reward performance. For some basic skills, like reading comprehension and arithmetic, for which millions of our kids are not even acquiring, a standardized test is perfectly adequate for evaluating classroom effectiveness relative to their peers.

I choose the person that cuts my hair based on their skill. I don't need to see the results of some testing to know if I just got a bad haircut. Parents likewise know if their kid's teacher is a lemon. Teachers that are lemons should not be retained or protected by a union when kid's futures are on the line. In an ideal system, parents would even have more choice over who their kids teachers are, just like I do with the person that cuts my hair.

On most everything else though, I agree with her, except collective bargaining, which I'm ambivalent about since it's lead the problem discussed above.

MarkInSF says

Frankly I am appalled by Ms. Schripsema statement that teachers should not be paid on performance.

No, actually she's right. They would be judged on tests and therefore overemphasize tests. It's called teaching to the test. I don't have time to break this down now, but you might want to read Dianne Ravitch.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools

This isn't a simple topic. In high school, teachers would scramble to get honors classes, where showing a years growth comes most easy.

I usually like David Brooks, but his analysis in that piece was weak. He argues against unions for govt jobs, not understanding what we would have without them.

Dianne Ravitch on Walker and Wisconsin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-ravitch/eight-civics-lessons-from_b_835201.html

A better read on testing, interview with Ravitch.

http://educationfrontblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/05/diane-ravitch-on-testing-accou.html

This isn't simple. Is it possible that people with decades of experience in the field might have insights to share that could help inform you on nuance ?

By the way Ravitch was 180 degrees from where she is now when she worked in the Bush admin.

I'm not arguing for standardized testing. I'm saying there needs to be accountability. Most professionals are held accountable for their performance in some way, and the best tend to make more money.

It seems to be the position of the unions, Ravitch, and you that any accountability is bad. Merit pay would destroy collegiality. Any effort to find and fire bad teachers would be demoralizing. The only thing I see Ratitch say there is that principals need to watch their teachers. Well isn't that what happens now? The process for removing a teacher is so difficult that it rarely happens, thanks again to the union.

Basically it looks like Ravitch is saying nothing is wrong. Not a good answer.

That's not what she's saying at all.

Nor is she saying that there can't be better elimination of bad teachers.

(And FYI teacher evaluation is the big thing and will get more rigorous than the evaluations the way they are done now (in LA anyway)).

So called VAR "Value added" methods of grading teachers, based on tests from previous end of year versus this end of year is deeply flawed, but may well become part of our evaluation, so we will worry more about tests than what is really best for our kids. The schools in other countries that do so much better than we do don't work that way.

MarkInSF says

Any effort to find and fire bad teachers would be demoralizing

Her point is that teachers need to be supported. It's not that bad teachers don't need to be gotten rid of. But she is responding to Michelle Rhee and others who take the stance that "if you just fired the 10% worst teachers every year you would get great results." So teachers run around in a scared competitive mode, not collaborating and franticly doing test prep. Sure that will make for great schools.

I'm too tired and I don't have time to educate you on this, and no offense but I'm not sure you are open minded enough to get it, even if I did. Try teaching for a few years, then you would get it. Even that is telling if you think about it. Everyone thinks they know better than teachers whats going on with schools and why children in tough communities aren't doing better.

I guess if you tried teaching for five or ten years, then you would no longer be qualified to have an informed opinion about it. Too close to the issue I guess, huh?

It's complicated, and everyone thinks it's all about the teachers, and especially the politician think that there are simple solutions.

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do....raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do….raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

YES - but I do have one thing to add...we aren't raising CHILDREN...we are raising ADULTS.

Good to see you back around Clarence.

marcus says

It’s complicated, and everyone thinks it’s all about the teachers, and especially the politician think that there are simple solutions.

Of course it's complicated. But we don't have to be a teacher to post an opinion - if that were the case then nothing would ever change.

There are those cases of bad teachers - we've seen the articles - who are paid for years due to their union protection. But there are many good teachers who aren't ever recognized as such. I think that there should be accountability for teachers...

...but a good start would be to pay them what they're worth. They make less per child than a babysitter does, but we bitch & moan about the cost of the education system. I think that we need to poll every teacher anonymously and ask what they think could improve the education system. I dare say they'd have some great feedback as to how the system is broken and how it could be fixed.

I'm sure that there's so much waste that could be cut out, and programs that could be improved. Teachers shouldn't have to buy supplies out of their own pocket - and starting salaries should be higher. We need to attract the best & brightest to educate our children, and support them as best we can.

I have another suggestion: I live in an area where $650 of my $900 property taxes goes to the schools and have no children in the schools. My neighbors, who have 8 children, pay the same amount. I don't resent the amount that I'm paying, because we should all pay for the future, but I do resent that my neighbors aren't more responsible for their children during the time that they're at school. People should have to pay for their children's education if they choose to pop out a bunch of children - and if they can't afford it, they should have to volunteer enough hours to offset the difference. They can help in PE, school events, assist teachers, etc... but they should have to participate in their kid's education more.

But we don't have to teach to have an opinion.

elliemae says

But we don’t have to teach to have an opinion.

I didn't say you do.

But in my opinion, teachers opinions aren't respected. OF course not. Because teachers are the problem.

Maybe the answer is to get some good teachers, and learn from them what's going on in public education. My other issue was just being tired last night, and having way more on my mind in response to MarkInSF than I wanted to explain.

Wisconsin "Teacher Truths" = Call in sick (lie) when you aren't sick. Use falsified written Dr. excuses in order to get paid while protesting in Madison. Set a great example for your students by teaching them lying and cheating is justified when pursuing personal goals.

The truth is the public sector unions, including the teacher's unions, have made a couple of related strategic errors.

1) For the most part, they have supported only the Red team of the Republicrat party. Smarter groups, such as the bankers and ethanol manufacturers, take a balanced approach by cycling a portion of their government take to both sides.

2) Until recently, the public sector unions have largely ignored the public. There is a void the Blue team is filling with stories of incompetence and excess compensation. The average Joe knows absolutely nothing about PS unions aside from his time in public school and his tax bill.

Oops, Got the red team, blue team thing confused. I meant:

1) For the most part, they have supported only the Blue team of the Republicrat party. Smarter groups, such as the bankers and ethanol manufacturers, take a balanced approach by cycling a portion of their government take to both sides.

2) Until recently, the public sector unions have largely ignored the public. There is a void the Red team is filling with stories of incompetence and excess compensation. The average Joe knows absolutely nothing about PS unions aside from his time in public school and his tax bill.

Feel free to point out any other goofs.

Thanks.

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do….raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

I agree. but when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr.

zzyzzx says

when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr

"At least ?" Why do people need to exaggerate so much ?

In the very highest paid cities in this country, the very senior most teachers almost make that much if you include benefits (93K or so). But the average (SENIOR TEACHER) in other words THE AVERAGE HIGHEST PAY INCLUDING BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SENIOR TEACHERS ( YOU KNOW AFTER TEACHING 10 TO 20 YEARS) from say the 40 highest paid (metropolitan areas), would be closer to 75K.

Please look it up before arguing with me. Note: in many places, we pay in to our pension funds out of our salary.

marcus says

zzyzzx says

when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr

“At least ?” Why do people need to exaggerate so much ?
In the very highest paid cities in this country, the very senior most teachers almost make that much if you include benefits (93K or so). But the average (SENIOR TEACHER) in other words THE AVERAGE HIGHEST PAY INCLUDING BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SENIOR TEACHERS ( YOU KNOW AFTER TEACHING 10 TO 20 YEARS) from say the 40 highest paid (metropolitan areas), would be closer to 75K.
Please look it up before arguing with me. Note: in many places, we pay in to our pension funds out of our salary.

What they get from their pensions is quite a bit and worth more than the equivalent of 25K per year in equivalent salary.

zzyzzx says

What they get from their pensions is quite a bit and worth more than the equivalent of 25K per year in equivalent salary.

Okay, well I'm a high school teacher in one of the well paid cities, and also I have a masters degree in Math. So I am more than capable of calculating it's worth. We pay in 8% of our salary in (it comes out of our salary). The district pays an additional 8.25%, and the state pays about 2% more (although in some years not, in others a bit more.

You can't count the part that I pay in. Only the 10.25% that the government pays on top of my salary. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but for teachers at the VERY VERY top of the scale, top seniority, plus highest additional education credits, gets a pension benefit worth close to 8K (above my salary). In other words, it's worth about 16K but 8k or so of that comes out of my salary.

If you want to argue that the unfunded liablitly makes it worth more, than okay, maybe a bit more, but we will see adjustments for that. So say it's worth 10 or 12K above my salary. Add health care and you might be up to 20K or more.

You can say it over and over. It doesn't make it true.

EightBall says

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do….raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

YES - but I do have one thing to add…we aren’t raising CHILDREN…we are raising ADULTS.
Good to see you back around Clarence.

Glad to be back learning from others.

marcus says

You can’t count the part that I pay in. Only the 10.25% that the government pays on top of my salary. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but for teachers at the VERY VERY top of the scale, top seniority, plus highest additional education credits, gets a pension benefit worth close to 8K (above my salary). In other words, it’s worth about 16K but 8k or so of that comes out of my salary.
If you want to argue that the unfunded liablitly makes it worth more, than okay, maybe a bit more, but we will see adjustments for that. So say it’s worth 10 or 12K above my salary. Add health care and you might be up to 20K or more.

I have a few questions that may help me understand how the pension system works. I present these questions out of curiousity, not to be snide.

Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?
Am I missing something in terms of how this pension is funded?

I really dont want to fund others retirement with my tax dollars, even good teachers like yourself. The only solution to the poor education in this country is enthusiastic students who come from stable 2 parent homes.

@Marcus

I was a substitute teacher years ago in California.

There was an interesting analysis showing the average teacher salary/ave. salary in general by country. I remember it was highest in South Korea. The US was rather on the other side. I'll try to find it...

Some of the criticisms of teachers are valid, *but*
I also believe much of the force behind the attack on educators is induced by the "divide and conquer" strategy of elites.

Clarence 13X says

Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?

Forgive me Clarence, but your question is silly. I'll answer it with a question.

Whatever you think you should be willing to pay teachers (with your taxes),... would it be okay with you if 88% of that amount was paid to me in salary and the other 12% was paid to me in the form of a matching contribution to my pension ?

American in Japan says

I also believe much of the force behind the attack on educators is induced by the “divide and conquer” strategy of elites.

Yes, I agree. Too bad more don't see it.

shrekgrinch says

The public education union bubble is going to crash eventually

I doubt it. But if you were right,...that is if your wish comes true, then it is one huge step further in the split between the haves and the have nots.

I can get a good job in a private school. But I would hate to see my idea of what America is end. Maybe it already has. I guess that's what you are all about.

marcus says

Clarence 13X says
Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?
Forgive me Clarence, but your question is silly. I’ll answer it with a question.
Whatever you think you should be willing to pay teachers (with your taxes),… would it be okay with you if 88% of that amount was paid to me in salary and the other 12% was paid to me in the form of a matching contribution to my pension ?

It was a sincere question, its unfortunate you choose to engage in snide remarks. I have no understanding of how the system works. So, to recap what you said without calling you a tard or silly....

....we pay teachers a salary + whatever percentage is paid into their pensions.

Thanks.

Yeah, them teachers sure didn't get no specialized degree, certifications, or continuing education. They sat on their lazy buts collecting the hard earned stolen tax dollars that were snatched away from college drop-out red blooded all-American IT workers who get paid to sit on their buts in cubicles playing with their joysticks.

It's not like them lazy good for nothin' teachers put up with those spoiled brats who are the progeny of over paid college drop out IT professionals all day.

You know, I'm so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest groups. Why can't we Americans who work for a living learn to support one another? If we don't soon it will be entirely too late. The super rich are eating a feast while the rest of us fight amongst ourselves for the scraps they throw at us. Wake up America!

simchaland says

You know, I’m so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest groups. Why can’t we Americans who work for a living learn to support one another?

Point taken.

@simchaland

"You know, I’m so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest ..."

As I said divide and conquer... and it's working pretty well. How many people watch only Fox News or believe Rush Limbaugh, etc.

Teacher Truth = Washington, DC public schools spend an incredible amount of money per each student .... at one time, it was the highest ratio in the entire country. Question: why is it one of the worst school systems in the entire country? If you listen to the Left, money is the answer, what's the question?

Clarence 13X says

So, to recap what you said without calling you a tard or silly….

….we pay teachers a salary + whatever percentage is paid into their pensions.

Thanks.

Saying your question is silly isn't calling you names. You said,

"Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement? "

MY point is that it is just part of our compensation. Here I will put it differently, and this is a quote out of the Hoover commissions report.

Today, the pension system is regarded as deferred compensation – the perceived tradeoff of earning a lower salary in the public sector in exchange for a good retirement package.

Your question as to whether we teachers all think the government should match what we pay in to the pension ? It's just part of our compensation. By the way, we don't pay in to social security, nor does our employer pay the matching 6.2% for SS (we also don't receive SS except for a substantially reduced amount if we paid in enough years before teaching - but then the state pension would be lower).

Most people commenting on teacher compensation and most people going to work for the government (or anywhere else) see the benefits as part of the compensation. That is they view their compensation in total. Certainly they view the cost of their compensation (to their employer) in total.

If you had asked me whether all teachers think they are worth, or whether they deserve the total cost to the taxpayers of their compensation (including benefits), then I would say yes, they sure do. And that is not a silly question.

I'm not sure whether you understand why the question was silly. I tried to explain it. To understand my response is to understand that it was a silly question.

And by the way, @zzyzzx

When I was trying to clarify for you that our pension benefit isn't nearly what you say, I didn't subtract out the 6.2% for SS, versus the 8.25% (plus 2% from the state) that we get. SO what we get for comparison purposes to the private sector costs the government something along the lines of 4% of our salary. But if our pay is 4% or more below private industry then you might be able to comprehend the lies being told by Koch, Murdoch and others.

Some will scream that the unfunded liabilities will eventually cost more, and they will raise our member contributions and the employer side contributions. So that 4% number is too low. Okay then add a few percent to it.

Still if people were willing to look at the numbers, they would understand that their envy and dishonesty is just so much hooey.

Here in Leyden Township, the average High School teacher salary is $90,000. The highest paid teachers make almost twice that. This is in an area where the average family income is under $60,000.

I didn't have any idea of what the local schools were costing until I got my 2009 property tax bill of almost $6000. This is on a house we bought for $200,000 in 2008. 2/3 of the tax bill is for two High Schools and two Elementary schools.

Here's a list of the top 100 Illinois teacher salaries. Nearly all of them are in the suburban Chicago area:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3042

There's a couple of comparisons of Social Security and teacher's pensions.

The SSA website says:

"For example, for a worker retiring at age 66 in 2011, the amount is $2,366. This figure is based on earnings at the maximum taxable amount for every year after age 21."

Social Security maxes out at $28392/yr. The recipient must be at least 66 years old.

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job. A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s. Actually, it's unlikely that the 20 year teachers will be retiring at the average salary as salary increases with seniority and pension spiking is common.

Social Security contributions are 50/50 between the employer and employee. Here, it's closer to 80/20 between the taxpayer and the teacher:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3218

@Cook County resident

I think in this township they are overpaid...However, I wonder if in terms of pay, this area is an extreme case.

American in Japan says

@Cook County resident
I think in this township they are overpaid…However, I wonder if in terms of pay, this area is an extreme case.

The salaries at the Leyden High Schools aren't extreme in Suburban Chicago:

—About 4 percent of teachers statewide earned $100,000 or more — 5,457 teachers — but the vast majority worked in the Chicago suburbs, with heavy concentrations in north Cook, DuPage and Lake counties. In all, 32 Chicago-area districts paid at least 20 percent of their teachers six figures — five times the state average.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-07-14/news/ct-met-six-figure-salaries-20100714_1_school-teachers-salaries-six-figure

Cook County resident says

Here’s a list of the top 100 Illinois teacher salaries. Nearly all of them are in the suburban Chicago area:

There's something misleading about those numbers. They refer to them as salary, but they must be total compensation. Niles west which I know used to be one of the highest paying schools in the country is where the 3rd guy on the list teaches. This says the average teacher salary is 70K. http://www.schools-data.com/schools/NILES-WEST-HS-SKOKIE.html

It very clear to me that these numbers are AT LEAST, total compensation, including health care and pension cost. Even then, and obviously teachers who have taught for over 20 years. There's no denying the pay is high though.

Why do I say at least ? Because I think they also include additional pay, such as summer school and pay for taking on responsibilities on top of teaching. For example coaching. There are PE teachers on the list.

I guess it depends on how you define "salary."

Cook County resident says

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job

As long as they are over what age ?

Cook County resident says

teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Cook County resident says

A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Wrong.

marcus says

Cook County resident says

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job

As long as they are over what age ?

Starting this year, pensions are determined on a two tier basis. Right now it's as early as 55.

Here's a quote from the TRS website:

"# Members can retire at age 55 with full benefits if they have 35 years of service credit accumulated; if the member has elected to have his/her pension determined by the 2.2% formula and paid the required fee."

OK, with the 2.2% formula, it's more like 23 years. And the pension rules are considerably less generous for those who signed on this year.

http://trs.illinois.gov/subsections/legislative/SB1946.htm#ezguide

Cook County resident says

teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Cook County resident says

A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Wrong.

OK, so what do they actually make?

Somehow the quote function got confused. To make it clearer, I said:

Starting this year, pensions are determined on a two tier basis. Right now it’s as early as 55.

Here’s a quote from the TRS website:

“# Members can retire at age 55 with full benefits if they have 35 years of service credit accumulated; if the member has elected to have his/her pension determined by the 2.2% formula and paid the required fee.”

OK, with the 2.2% formula, it’s more like 23 years. And the pension rules are considerably less generous for those who signed on this year.

http://trs.illinois.gov/subsections/legislative/SB1946.htm#ezguide

marcus--

Those are salaries, not total compensation--but it does include summer school and activities (clubs, sports, etc.). Teachers in North and NW suburban Chicago do very well.

I generally don't think teachers are overpaid, but in District 214 (or 211 I can't remember)--a high school district in NW Chicago, the average drivers ED instructor makes something like $110K. That's a bit ridiculous.

Cook County resident says

OK, so what do they actually make?

I was just saying wrong, because I can not believe that the highest multiplier kicks in at age 55. I see that it does (but only if you have 35 years in). How does someone have 35 years in at age 55 ? Otherwise it would appear they have to wait til 60 to get the highest multiplier. Or have 6 percent per year subtracted.

Not denying it's a great deal. It's called attracting good people to the profession, and compensating them well for sticking with it.

marcus says

Cook County resident says

OK, so what do they actually make?

I was just saying wrong, because I can not believe that the highest multiplier kicks in at age 55. I see that it does (but only if you have 35 years in). How does someone have 35 years in at age 55 ? Otherwise it would appear they have to wait til 60 to get the highest multiplier. Or have 6 percent per year subtracted.
Not denying it’s a great deal. It’s called attracting good people to the profession, and compensating them well for sticking with it.

35 years at 55? Maybe there's some doublesecret way to double count some years. Who knows? Illinois government can be, to put it nicely, murky.

And maybe the schools are attracting the best people possible. How would we know? The test scores in Leyden are usually just below average to average.