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MERIT PAY


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2011 Apr 1, 3:52am   6,916 views  53 comments

by marcus   ➕follow (6)   💰tip   ignore  

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better. Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice." "That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry." "Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me." "Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children see me until there is some problem and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also," he said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?" "It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job. "I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most." "Don't get touchy," I said. "Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. My more educated patients who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?" "I think you are overreacting," I said. "Complaining, excuse making and stonewalling won't improve dental health... I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted. "What's the DOC?" he asked. "It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly laypersons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved." "Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes." "That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure." "That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly. "Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some." "How?" he said. "If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly. "You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help." "There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all." "You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children's progress without regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools." I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senator," he said. "I'll use the school analogy - surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.

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1   EightBall   2011 Apr 1, 4:38am  

Interesting story, but my property taxes don't pay for compulsory dental visits for my neighbors kids (yet). If a dentist is for crap he might survive in business for a long time with unsuspecting patients but he'll never get tenure and lifetime benefits. Sorry, but this is weak.

How about suggesting a way to get rid of crappy teachers instead?

2   zzyzzx   2011 Apr 1, 5:04am  

EightBall says

How about suggesting a way to get rid of crappy teachers instead?

Get rid of teacher's unions so that you can fire the bad ones.

3   Vicente   2011 Apr 1, 6:03am  

I propose we adopt the Goldman Sachs strategies in all realms.

The lowest-performing tier are fired after every yearly performance review.

We should of course adopt the only measure that matters, how much money did they bring in. Don't care if it's getting the kids out selling candy, or "helping" their students get UNBELIEVABLE test scores to bring in state/Federal dollars. How about if a teacher builds a relationship with a local textile mill, and sets up work/study programs so they can learn to maintain the looms. Whatever it takes to pipeline kids into jobs and slice off some money for the school.

Adopting the ethical and business philosophy of Goldman Sachs, it's the only way to Utopia.

You work in a support job that doesn't bring in any money? Too bad, get used to getting fired every year and looking for a new one. It's good for you, builds character.

4   Cook County resident   2011 Apr 1, 6:12am  

Vicente says

I propose we adopt the Goldman Sachs strategies in all realms.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Does that mean the dentists who do the most damage get the biggest bonuses?

5   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 6:16am  

EightBall says

How about suggesting a way to get rid of crappy teachers instead?

True are many independent issues that the post does not allude to. It doesn't speak to our presence in Libya either.

zzyzzx says

Get rid of teacher’s unions so that you can fire the bad ones.

How about we say, if you know nothing about a topic, just go with what ever emotion some propaganda has triggered.

6   Vicente   2011 Apr 1, 6:18am  

Cook County resident says

Does that mean the dentists who do the most damage get the biggest bonuses?

No, the ones who generate the most money RIGHT NOW. We don't care what the effects are down the line of course. If they do a bunch of unneeded work and all the teeth fall out in 5 years who cares? With a fat enough bonus you can be sipping fruity drinks on an island before all the chickens come home to roost.

The Goldman Sachs philosophy says of course all our customers are sophisticated and well-informed, so there's no worries they could be cheated by overselling them on work they don't need. Thus you never need burden yourself with thoughts of the future and society. Far too heavy of a burden, focus only on the money.

7   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 6:20am  

EightBall says

Interesting story, but my property taxes don’t pay for compulsory dental visits for my neighbors kids (yet). If a dentist is for crap he might survive in business for a long time with unsuspecting patients but he’ll never get tenure and lifetime benefits. Sorry, but this is weak.

Okay, so let me get this straight. IF dentistry was done by the government, and paid for with taxes, then you would want to have a totally faulty and misleading way of analyzing their performance ? Impressive.

8   Cook County resident   2011 Apr 1, 6:43am  

Vicente says

With a fat enough bonus you can be sipping fruity drinks on an island before all the chickens come home to roost.
“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

What's this "you" business? If I somehow find myself as a Goldman Sachs dentist, I will not only endanger the teeth of my patients for short term gain, but I'd get myself appointed to the Federal Dental Board to ensure my continuing profits and, most importantly, to keep the chickens from roosting on my dentist cronies.

Islands and fruity drinks are for lazy slackers.

9   EightBall   2011 Apr 1, 7:00am  

marcus says

Okay, so let me get this straight. IF dentistry was done by the government, and paid for with taxes, then you would want to have a totally faulty and misleading way of analyzing their performance ? Impressive.

If teachers were actually performing a service that PEOPLE WERE PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKETS DIRECTLY with the ABILITY TO GO ELSEWHERE WHEN DISSATISFIED then we probably wouldn't have this problem. MOST people have no choice when it comes to compulsory public education. Sure, some people may educate at home and some might pay for a private school, but most people do NOT have the option. Period. End of story. You are stuck with the good AND the bad and because there have been attempts to actually MAKE PEOPLE GET WHAT THEIR TAXES PAY FOR you are offended? Like I said, how about telling us the RIGHT way to get the MOST of what we are spending instead of spending time making false analogies? You are on the "inside" so you must know when to call a spade a spade but it is difficult to quantify it so let's just not do anything?

It would be LUNACY to charge TAXES and FORCE people to use a SPECIFIC dentist NO MATTER WHAT HIS SKILL LEVEL or PROFICIENCY. We do that with education, though, and hey! It's ok! Not only that we will fight to make sure no one from the OUTSIDE interferes! Because gee...no one on the outside could possibly understand what the ivory tower teachers know ... especially parents that have a vested interest in the system actually working...

10   sfbubblebuyer   2011 Apr 1, 8:42am  

I'm fine with the teacher unions keeping collective bargaining, because classroom size and funds for materials and all sorts of other stuff IS important to doing their job and beneficial to the kids. I just think we need to get rid of tenure and replace it with a rankings system that allows the bottom 5% to be fired.

And the bottom 5% will be picked on 3 different lists, Parents/Student reviews, Teacher Peer Evaluations, and Management Review. If you hit the bottom 5% on all lists, you're canned before anybody else. If your cumulative evaluation puts you in the bottom 5%, you must be fired first if the school needs to cut teachers for budgetary reasons. If you're in the bottom 5% cumulative, you MAY be fired anyway to make room for a new teacher.

We need to cull a LOT of the management from the schools as well. I'd rather pay to have extra teachers who mentor and rotate through new teacher's rooms and in underserved areas as tutors than for more bean counters.

You can make it a little less draconian if you want by making it a 2 year process, or giving 1 free pass to hitting the bottom 5% to account for one time issues, and giving new teachers a 3 year grace period to learn the trade. (There's a pretty rough learning curve teaching.)

Bottom line, if you're a bad teacher, you should be fired.

11   Fisk   2011 Apr 1, 9:06am  

sfbubblebuyer says

I just think we need to get rid of tenure and replace it with a rankings system that allows the bottom 5% to be fired.

Rather than theorizing, why not look at the top US universities, which are still best in the world by far (unlike K-12 schools). They still have the tenure system, and those with tenure are not fired, even if in the bottom 5 or whatever %. Instead, the "bottoms" are denied tenure (that is, fired BEFORE getting tenure). And typically a lot more than 5% - typically from ~20% at a mid-level state university to ~60 - 70% in the Ivies.
This combines rigorous quality selection with security and attraction of job to those who made the grade. Sure, there still is "deadwood" that can't be fired because of tenure (though deans and chairs try to counsel them out in all sorts of ways). That's the inevitable price - there is no perfect system.

12   justme   2011 Apr 1, 9:29am  

Right on, Marcus. Is this your original writing? I like it.

13   justme   2011 Apr 1, 9:46am  

shrekgrinch says

Notice how Marcus doesn’t disclose this affiliation to you while posting this self-serving drivel?

What is this, teacher's are not permitted to express their point of view? It seems that parents and taxpayers have no qualms about expressing theirs.

14   FortWayne   2011 Apr 1, 9:53am  

A teacher can't force stupid students to learn. If parents don't get involved, there isn't much a teacher can do.

15   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 11:27am  

justme says

Right on, Marcus. Is this your original writing? I like it.

Nope, it was shared via email, I didn't know who to credit.

16   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 11:38am  

EightBall says

You are stuck with the good AND the bad and because there have been attempts to actually MAKE PEOPLE GET WHAT THEIR TAXES PAY FOR you are offended?

I'm not offended, I want to see it improved and I'm involved in reforms occurring at my school.
EightBall says

You are on the “inside” so you must know when to call a spade a spade but it is difficult to quantify it so let’s just not do anything?

"so let’s just not do anything" I certainly never said that. Teaching by definition is always trying to do better.

EightBall says

Not only that we will fight to make sure no one from the OUTSIDE interferes!

I think it's natural for us to think that we understand the problems better than those outside education. The people outside are either looking for a simple fix, or they are overly influenced by the propaganda from the right which wants to see private enterprise move in to education more.

EightBall says

Because gee…no one on the outside could possibly understand what the ivory tower teachers know

So the people on the front lines, actually interacting with and doing their very best teaching kids, are in an ivory tower ?

17   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 11:47am  

sfbubblebuyer says

If you hit the bottom 5% on all lists, you’re canned before anybody else. If your cumulative evaluation puts you in the bottom 5%, you must be fired first if the school needs to cut teachers for budgetary reasons. If you’re in the bottom 5% cumulative, you MAY be fired anyway to make room for a new teacher.

This is insane. At most public schools, after about two years you would have removed the teachers that might deserve to be fired. After that, you have people not collaborating and trying so hard to not be in that bottom 5% that it would be counter productive.

I think many forget that most people aren't in teaching for the money. There is a motivation to do right by the kids, as difficult as that might be for you to fathom.

Fisk says

Rather than theorizing, why not look at the top US universities, which are still best in the world by far (unlike K-12 schools). They still have the tenure system, and those with tenure are not fired, even if in the bottom 5 or whatever %. Instead, the “bottoms” are denied tenure (that is, fired BEFORE getting tenure). And typically a lot more than 5% - typically from ~20% at a mid-level state university to ~60 - 70% in the Ivies.

That would make far more sense. Make tenure more rigorous and difficult to get. But always firng 5%. That's true lunacy. But I'll give you this, it is a very American kind of lunacy.

The real problems in public education are in areas where the poverty rate is high.

Fun fact: The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

Can you say 'propaganda?'

18   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 11:58am  

shrekgrinch says

shrekgrinch says

Yes, let us do get this straight, Marcus. Are you a member of a teacher’s union in California? Yes/No?

So because I'm in a teachers union, I don't know about teaching ? Or I'm too biased toward my own self interest to have a meaningful opinion ? Shrek, I understand exactly why you can't begin to understand this, but for teachers, self interest and student's interest are not as independent as you and Clarence wish they were.

I suppose by your reasoning those in an actors guild can't know about acting.

Those in a steel workers union can't know about making steel, or those in an auto makers union don't know about making cars.

Shrek are you a member of AA? And no, I'm not talking about alcoholics anonymous.

19   sfbubblebuyer   2011 Apr 1, 12:30pm  

Hey Marcus, I didn't say always firing. I just said the bottom 5% CAN be fired, no questions asked.

Making tenure harder to get is another good idea, except the idea of tenure as applied to college professors is to protect them from political pressure when teaching controversial material, not to keep their jobs as part of a union contract. If professors were in unions, they wouldn't need tenure.

20   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 12:42pm  

sfbubblebuyer says

Hey Marcus, I didn’t say always firing

Oh, okay.

Teacher evaluation is a big topic these days. That is, new more rigorous forms of evaluation are being developed and negotiated. Unfortunately in many places, testing may be given too much emphasis.

21   sfbubblebuyer   2011 Apr 1, 12:57pm  

Ideally, testing is NOT part of ranking teachers, or is only a subset of it. Otherwise you'll get teachers in really rough neighborhoods ALWAYS struggling to be out of the 'could be fired' bucket just because they're in a really hard to reach area of kids.

Teachers should have a say, the administrators should have a say, and parents/kids should have a say.

22   MarkInSF   2011 Apr 1, 1:43pm  

A few points:

1) You point out few methods for evaluating teachers (er.... I mean dentists), that you think are bad. I happen to mostly agree.

However, where is your explanation of what a good method for evaluating teachers IS?

All I got was this:

“Come watch me work,” he said. “Observe my processes.”

Is that the extent of your recommendation for how dentist (er... I mean teachers) should be evaluated?

2) The main method for determining the best dentists, and for firing bad ones, comes from their patients.

I had a dentist that it turned out was just milking my excellent insurance by finding lots of problems, and recommending the most expensive treatments. The reason I know this is after the 3rd time in 2 years she recommended a $600 filling I decided to go to two other dentists for checkups, and neither of them noted anything of concern.

I fired my dentist and found a new one with good reputation.

As far as I know, this kind of choice is non-existent with parents choosing who their kid's teachers are.

Do you disagree?

23   MarkInSF   2011 Apr 1, 1:45pm  

shrekgrinch says

EightBall says

It would be LUNACY to charge TAXES and FORCE people to use a SPECIFIC dentist NO MATTER WHAT HIS SKILL LEVEL or PROFICIENCY.

Well, you better give that 411 to the morons who dig ObamaCare or any other government-mandated care in existence.

shrekgrinch, that is ridiculous. Medicare, and "Obamacare" does not restrict your choice of doctor. You don't like your doctor, you go find a new one.

24   marcus   2011 Apr 1, 2:58pm  

sfbubblebuyer says

Ideally, testing is NOT part of ranking teachers, or is only a subset of it. Otherwise you’ll get teachers in really rough neighborhoods ALWAYS struggling to be out of the ‘could be fired’ bucket just because they’re in a really hard to reach area of kids.

Teachers should have a say, the administrators should have a say, and parents/kids should have a say.

There you go.

25   elliemae   2011 Apr 2, 9:37am  

Dentists do have a method of quantifying their success - it's called money. Money comes from returning customers and referrals. People are free to access the services of whichever dentist they prefer.

Those who live in states where Medicaid pays for dental services usually have the choice between a few dentists. The good ones have a long wait for an appointment. (It should be pointed out that dentists who accept Medicaid as payment in full are knowingly cutting their payments by at least 25% - and that many states are cutting back on the services they pay for. Dental and optometry are on the chopping block, and Medicare doesn't pay for either service.)

On the other hand, people's tax dollars pay for their children's education. We've all read the stories about how some teachers are horrible and can't be fired due to the teacher's unions protecting them - a handful compared to the amount of teachers out there. This enrages the average taxpayer. Not an easy subject. And those of us with children have all experienced at least one crappy teacher during our experience with the education system. We need a method to quantify the effectiveness of our teachers - it's not like most of us have the option of going elsewhere if the education system doesn't adequately provide the service for which we're paying.

We pay taxes that fund the education system - and if we don't like the system our only options are to pay to send our children elsewhere while we continue to fund the public system, or to home-school our kids. There needs to be a way to encourage good teachers and get rid of the crappy ones.

I do believe that the teacher who wrote this self-serving drivel would have better made his/her point had he/she utilized actual punctuation. Since the object of writing the story is clearly to compare how to quantify good dentistry versus good teaching, the writer should have asked someone he/she worked with how (and when) to start a new paragraph.

He/she also might have realized that his target audience would recognize that this is fiction based on many factors - not the least of which is that a conversation this long, with so much information, can't be word-for-word (as it purports to be) unless it was recorded and later transcribed.

Finally, he gives away his status as a teacher by ending with, "He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately." To that I would say that I'm grateful this person filled with fear and suppressed anger isn't teaching my children but I do have sympathy for those children in his/her classes.

marcus says

Nope, it was shared via email, I didn’t know who to credit.

Not knowing who to credit is not an excuse for plagerism. Just sayin'

26   marcus   2011 Apr 2, 10:50am  

elliemae says

He/she also might have realized that his target audience would recognize that this is fiction based on many factors - not the least of which is that a conversation this long, with so much information, can’t be word-for-word (as it purports to be) unless it was recorded and later transcribed.

???

elliemae says

Not knowing who to credit is not an excuse for plagerism. Just sayin’

True. But since I never intended people to believe I wrote it, and when asked I let it be known, I told you that the source was unknown, it isn't plagiarism. Also, my assumption is that the true author wouldn't mind, and might even be proud to have it shared (notwithstanding your clever "analysis" and deep insights).

It might have been better to say "source unknown" up front. Especially for your benefit Ellie, and the mood you are in today.

elliemae says

Finally, he gives away his status as a teacher by ending with, “He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.” To that I would say that I’m grateful this person filled with fear and suppressed anger isn’t teaching my children but I do have sympathy for those children in his/her classes.

I see.

Readers, all you have to do is understand Ellie's perspective a little to totally understand what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about.

27   MarkInSF   2011 Apr 2, 11:06am  

elliemae says

Money comes from returning customers and referrals. People are free to access the services of whichever dentist they prefer.

That's the point I was making. But marcus did't respond to you or me on this point. I'm guessing I'm on marcus' ignore list now. You probably will be too soon.

28   marcus   2011 Apr 2, 11:21am  

MarkInSF says

I fired my dentist and found a new one with good reputation.

As far as I know, this kind of choice is non-existent with parents choosing who their kid’s teachers are.

Do you disagree?

No, and yes, you found a flaw in the analogy. It doesn't take away from the only point of it though.

Still, I am kind of sorry I shared it now.

29   MarkInSF   2011 Apr 2, 11:24am  

marcus says

No, and yes, you found a flaw in the analogy. It doesn’t take away from the only point of it though.

Well, any analogy can only go so far, and I guess if the purpose was to illustrate the absurdity of a method for evaluating teachers then you succeeded.

30   elliemae   2011 Apr 2, 3:51pm  

marcus says

Readers, all you have to do is understand Ellie’s perspective a little to totally understand what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about.

Just curious: what little bit of my perspective might you understand that gives you total understanding of what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about? And what is a mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger anyway?

You state that the flaw that Mark found doesn't take away from the only point of it - but there are multiple flaws in the analogy you posted. I guess my question to you is whether you believe that teachers should be evaluated, or held to any specific standard? While standardized testing isn't a great measure of a teacher's performance, what do you believe would be a method of rating their abilities?

Or would you rather continue to attack me because I pointed out that you posted a poorly written story invented to make a point?

31   Cook County resident   2011 Apr 2, 6:13pm  

marcus says

sfbubblebuyer says

Hey Marcus, I didn’t say always firing

Oh, okay.
Teacher evaluation is a big topic these days. That is, new more rigorous forms of evaluation are being developed and negotiated. Unfortunately in many places, testing may be given too much emphasis.

A little off topic, but I'll ask anyway. Is there any noticeable change with the kids whose parents are facing long-term unemployment?

32   marcus   2011 Apr 3, 2:36am  

Cook County resident says

Is there any noticeable change with the kids whose parents are facing long-term unemployment?

Good question. Answer: I don't know. I talk to some parents, at parent teacher conferences, or when I contact them because of problems, but it is rare that they or their child tells me about their personal problems. I have wondered about it myself. When a kid acts out in weird ways, or seems almost unable to focus and unusually distracted, I occasionally wonder, what the heck is going on in their life ? But I don't know.

If a child REALLY has their act together, and I do see many of those kids - not just intelligent with great work ethic, but well rounded with a great personality, I do tend to infer (right or wrong) that they have a great family life (not that such a cause and effect always holds). But when a kid does not have it together, or maybe is overly self involved or in some way kind of a somewhat a jerk, I don't make any inferences (I don't think the converse of the above cause and effect is nearly as reliable). But I might try to give them some guidance about manners or whatever.

It does occur to me every now and then, that this is public school, so as far as family problems, everything from severe economic problems to abuse, is probably represented. But I don't dwell on that fact. We have counselors that I occasionally talk to about a specific child. I am aware currently of a child suffering from depression, and a few others with ADD. As for abuse, we have some very specific rules about reporting if we suspect that physical abuse is occurring. I have yet to make such a report. I'm a high school teacher with about 200 students.

33   FortWayne   2011 Apr 3, 3:02am  

EightBall says

Interesting story, but my property taxes don’t pay for compulsory dental visits for my neighbors kids (yet). If a dentist is for crap he might survive in business for a long time with unsuspecting patients but he’ll never get tenure and lifetime benefits. Sorry, but this is weak.
How about suggesting a way to get rid of crappy teachers instead?

I think they just need to lose collective bargaining. So far all it does is create a sub-par education system which isn't very good at all, yet costs insane amount of money.

Firing random teachers won't do a thing really. Problem is more systematic, not based off individual performance. A worlds best teacher won't be able to teach some of those kids out there, but the system forces them to teach to the dumbest kid in the class room, and discourages failing students since there is no pay for failures.... which means if they want to get paid they have to lower standards and pass as many students as possible.

34   marcus   2011 Apr 3, 4:59am  

elliemae says

And what is a mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger anyway?

You must know, because from that you concluded:

elliemae says

Finally, he gives away his status as a teacher by ending with, “He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.” To that I would say that I’m grateful this person filled with fear and suppressed anger isn’t teaching my children but I do have sympathy for those children in his/her classes.

elliemae says

what do you believe would be a method of rating their abilities?

Currently teachers are evaluated with multiple class visits by administrators, with an evaluation meeting much like that given by managers in many fields, with suggestions for improvement and so on. If they don't pass the evaluation other actions are taken, up to having a peer teacher work with them the next year, and if improvement doesn't occur at that point they could be fired. Yes, this could be fought by the union.

That's how it works in my district. But I'm sure it varies. Currently, as I have stated, more rigorous methods of evaluation are being negotiated. I have tried in various posts to inform people to SOME of the complexities and problems with using testing for evaluation, but I am not going to elaborate again now.

My only point at this moment, is that people who use the straw man that union teachers don't want bad teachers fired, or those who think that there is no pressure to do well, beyond normal conscientiousness that goes with being a teacher, don't know what they are talking about.

elliemae says

Or would you rather continue to attack me because I pointed out that you posted a poorly written story invented to make a point?

Attacking ? Interesting. Would you say I was being passive aggressive ?

35   marcus   2011 Apr 3, 5:19am  

elliemae says

And what is a mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger anyway?

I'm not sure. But the author referred to walking off with a "look" of hope, mixed with fear and suppressed anger, that they often see in the mirror (Not the greatest writing. Maybe the writer teaches 2nd graders).

From that you got:

elliemae says

I’m grateful this person filled with fear and suppressed anger isn’t teaching my children

I'm not going to analyze your entire analysis. Because if I did so, with more honestly and bluntness than before, you wouldn't be able to see beyond "attack" anyway.

I'm sorry the piece didn't work for you Ellie.

36   elliemae   2011 Apr 3, 5:41am  

Not to belabor the point (I know, too late!): The guy ended his fictional story with the statement that he looks in the mirror and sees a look of hope mixed with fear & suppressed anger quite often.

marcus says

He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.

To which you reply with an attempt at a personal attack on me by implying that I am fearful and full of suppressed anger:

marcus says

Readers, all you have to do is understand Ellie’s perspective a little to totally understand what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about.

To which I (politely) must ask, again: what little bit of my perspective might you understand that gives you total understanding of what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about? And what is a mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger anyway?

Do you mean a mixture OF hope, fear and suppressed anger? I certainly don't see the fear & suppressed anger part, although I do see a beautiful, vibrant woman with a killer sense of humor. But, try as I might, I can't even begin to comprehend what you meant by "all you have to do is understand Ellie’s perspective a little to totally understand..."

marcus says

Would you say I was being passive aggressive ?

Yep. Only not passively. ;)

marcus says

My only point at this moment, is that people who use the straw man that union teachers don’t want bad teachers fired, or those who think that there is no pressure to do well, beyond normal conscientiousness that goes with being a teacher, don’t know what they are talking about.

I hope that you realize that we read about the extreme cases in the media because it sells - so that's the impression that we're left with. Maybe unions are good, maybe they're not. But there should be a fast track method for firing the bad ones, and less layers of administration so that teachers would be paid more. If that were to happen, we could attract the best & brightest. My neice's husband wanted to be a teacher but was starved out of it, and he got a job in the private sector for 2x the salary. The school lost a science teacher/softball coach who really cared about the students. Now he voluntenteers at his church's softball league.

I don't dislike teachers, Marcus. But I would prefer that they possess an adequate ability to communicate in the written word. (Elliemae looks in the mirror) Nope, still don't see the fear & suppressed anger - but I'll keep you posted.

37   tatupu70   2011 Apr 3, 5:49am  

ChrisLA says

I think they just need to lose collective bargaining. So far all it does is create a sub-par education system which isn’t very good at all, yet costs insane amount of money.

How do you come to the conclusion that collective bargaining is the cause of a sub-par education system (which I'm not sure I agree with anyway). All the evidence I've seen paints a different picture..

.ChrisLA says

Firing random teachers won’t do a thing really. Problem is more systematic, not based off individual performance. A worlds best teacher won’t be able to teach some of those kids out there, but the system forces them to teach to the dumbest kid in the class room, and discourages failing students since there is no pay for failures…. which means if they want to get paid they have to lower standards and pass as many students as possible.

So, it's really not collective bargaining then, is it?

38   marcus   2011 Apr 3, 5:56am  

I never intended to imply anything about you looking in the mirror, although I do (only now) see an irony in that.

I said:

marcus says

Readers, all you have to do is understand Ellie’s perspective a little to totally understand what that mixture or hope, fear and suppressed anger is all about.

Please let me break down what I meant. My interpretation of the story was that in the end, the writer (obviously a teacher) refers to seeing that mixture of hope, fear, and suppressed anger in the mirror. It was my belief that your provocative analysis reflected the typical kind of attitude, that inspires those kinds of feelings in teachers.

Can we please drop this before I tell you what I really think of your insights ?

39   elliemae   2011 Apr 3, 6:08am  

marcus says

Can we please drop this before I tell you what I really think of your insights ?

I'm guessing that you hold the utmost respect and appreciation for my insights, as I do yours. ;)

Seriously, marcus, in a perfect world, if you were to build a school from the bottom up, what would you do differently? Do you believe that there's too much administrative overhead? Do you feel that the system is bogged down in minutiae?

40   marcus   2011 Apr 3, 6:37am  

elliemae says

Seriously, marcus, in a perfect world, if you were to build a school from the bottom up, what would you do differently?

I don't have time to answer that. But yes, certainly there is too much administrative overhead, although that has been cut along with teachers in recent years.

The truth is that most schools are always trying to do better. Schools in poor areas don't do well enough, and I think paying great teachers more, to work in those schools would be a good idea. Think of it as hazardous duty pay. It turns out poverty is by far the biggest factor adversely affecting outcomes. How much of that is from having parents that don't buy in to the importance of education, or from nutrition, or from the lack of good role models (other successful students), or from many other non-teacher factors, we don't know.

We do know that teaching in schools where attendance is bad and too many kids REALLY don't want to be there, let alone cooperate, is more of a challenge than most can comprehend. Even teaching in a relatively middle class area such as where I am, where the kids are for the most part great, is still a daunting challenge.

I don't have the answers, and there aren't simple answers, but people should know that public education isn't as bad as the media would have you believe. The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

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