0
0

The first time home buyers stayed away? No, we were pushed away by the investors.


 invite response                
2011 Apr 20, 5:43am   18,232 views  72 comments

by Nobody   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42677915/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

"Investors drove up U.S. home sales last month, plunking down cash to
grab cheap homes at risk of foreclosure.

But first-time home buyers, who are crucial to a housing recovery, stayed away."

Actually, we were pushed out by the investors. The bank took the investor's all cash offer which was
more than $20K less than my offer. I really resent the investors for driving up the price
of housing. They did so by giving undeserving people mortgage and buying up the
bulk of real estate.

So I just want to make it clear that we didn't stay away. We were simply shoved away
by the investors.

#housing

Comments 1 - 40 of 72       Last »     Search these comments

1   seaside   2011 Apr 20, 12:07pm  

All-cash purchases made up a record 35 percent of sales in March, which some economists said could be a sign some investors were starting to seek a hedge against inflation.

*
We ordinary joes are broke, and they got cash to spend.
Nice. At least, they're having a good time.
Shouldn't have bailed them out at the first place.

2   HousingWatcher   2011 Apr 20, 12:13pm  

I wonder who these investors are. Are they small time investors? Or are they mega vulture funds with tens of millions of dolalrs? I'm guessing the latter.

3   FortWayne   2011 Apr 20, 1:07pm  

Give it time man. There are plenty of those "investors" in our area. All of them end up selling it later for a loss or break even.

I'll give you a single example from our neck of the woods, but this was common for a while. Investor bought a property for 475 in cash (put some money into it fixing it as well). Sold a year later for 450. ... its getting closer to 300.

4   Paul in TX   2011 Apr 20, 3:00pm  

How are the investors driving up the price of housing? You just said the bank took the investor's all-cash offer, which was $20K less than your borrowed-money offer.

5   bubblesitter   2011 Apr 20, 3:20pm  

So what are investors going to do with all their investments? Rent it. I know a few of them, first time investors. For the most part those first time investors will run out of patient in few years and dump them. Another wave of downturn coming soon. Seems like investors and banks are soon going to compete with each other for those buyers on the sidelines.

6   RealisticOptimist   2011 Apr 20, 3:48pm  

This idea is encroaching on dangerous territory. I don't think it's fair to get upset with people who have cash on hand to purchase a property. They are putting all of that money at risk should the property values fall. This isn't artificial demand because they got some no money down loan or gov't subsidy. They are taking REAL dollars and making a purchase. People are entitled to do what they want with their money. Should the seller turn them away? "Sorry, I don't want your money, I think this market still has room to fall and it wouldn't be fair to everyone else for me to boost the MLS's sales statistics. I'll just keep on losing my shirt on this property because it's the right thing to do." I don't understand what the complaint is here.

As ChrisLA said, many of them wind up selling things for a loss later. Sucks for them, but it's their right to do so. I'm against the artificial inflation that created the bubble, because that was based on nothing, and the taxpayer ate the loss for all the bad loans. The person eating any loss here is the buyer. While I think that most markets have more room to fall, and I personally wouldn't be a buyer in most areas, that is only my opinion and I will act upon it accordingly. While I think it would be best for the market to continue to fall back to the historical median, we have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do with their money. Again, we aren't talking about govt funded tax credits, or no-doc loans that create an artificial incentive to buy. This is straight up cash, which is about as free market as it gets (ACTUAL free market, not the modern day republican definition of it).

NOTE: I don't own any property.

7   Nobody   2011 Apr 20, 4:22pm  

Realistic,

I don't care to tell investors how to use their money. I resent the fact their money
game is inflating the price. I can't help what I feel. A same thing with the fact
that the price of gasoline is going up due largely to the increased demand but
also partly by the money game. Oh and do not forget, we have printed
too much US$. But that's another story.

Let's get back to the main topic. The main topic is that we, first time buyers, didn't
choose to stay away. We were simply shoved away by the investors.

8   Misstrial   2011 Apr 20, 4:39pm  

What I do to combat specuvestors is to refuse to rent from them. Period.

These are the people who drove up the cost of housing in California and Nevada among other states.

Let them rent to low-tier tenants and get burned. I could care less.

Whatever the case, its wrong to drive up the cost of shelter by competing against buyers who want to owner-occupy the property.

If they want to invest, let them buy gold and silver.

~Misstrial

9   LoLopezG   2011 Apr 20, 5:19pm  

i refuse to rent from them as well. the last 3 houses we looked at have been bought by investors, and turned back on the market to sit or had a for rent sign in the yard a week later. no thanks!

10   RealisticOptimist   2011 Apr 20, 5:22pm  

@Nobody - that's cool, and you are entitled to feel what you want. I hate the fact that the banks, wall street, govt, and original speculators over the past 10 years put us in this mess in the first place. I'm 30 years old living in NY, make a decent salary, have a good savings, and I can't buy anything here unless I want to burden myself with a massive cost. I choose not to do that. I resent the fact that prices here are still 2-3 times more than they were in 2000.

Because of that, I've considered investing out of state, in a depressed market such as Phoenix (because I'm familiar with the area). To bring up Misstrial's points - I'm not a "specuvestor" - I'd like to be an investor, though ANY investment involves some speculation, but so does every decision in life for that matter. If I buy gold and silver that would be more speculative than buying property. I have no idea if gold will go up or down. I can guess, but then again, I can also bet on the Knicks game on Friday.

With property, Im looking to buy something at a reasonable price (though not cash), that I can rent out at THE GOING RATE, and hopefully bring a little cash in after covering all the costs. I don't expect the property to jump in value and I do not intend to flip it. People rent because they don't want to buy (whether that be a personal choice, or lack of funds). That's why I rent here in NY...it's just too damn expensive and not financially prudent for me to buy here. If I purchase a property, I will only rent to low-tier tenants if I have to... if I make a poor choice and buy a property that is in low demand, and thus only low-tier tenants can afford.

11   Icabod   2011 Apr 20, 6:14pm  

What do you think real estate investors are going to do in this market? This is when they get rich if they have the cash flow by snagging, painting and re-selling. I live in an area where prices have not gone down quite as much but there are a pant load of REOs, auctions and cash sales. It's just the insiders getting the deals around here and then turning around and selling them at "local market value". I actually don't mind it at all, instead I'm trying to learn from them. I've had a friend who is a broker but also a licensed auctioneer to teach me the ropes of getting the super steals as the turn up. I do have the benefit of a lot of cash, but whatever, I'm going to either get a sweet deal or wait and low ball until I find one.

Spring fever shit is a pain in the ass though out here in New England. Can't wait until August so I have some selection at better prices. Our area still has about 15-20% to go to be fair imo.

12   commonsense   2011 Apr 20, 6:21pm  

I don't know what any of this is really about. The smart people stayed away? Yes, that is why they are smart. If it (the distressed overpriced dump) wasn't sold the first time around a paint job doesn't make it saleable the second. I think I need boots for this thread. I'll stay away.

13   commonsense   2011 Apr 20, 6:30pm  

I will say this much, these so-called investors will eat what they are buying. I call tell you right now a lot of real estate bullshit is flying around and I don't fall for any of it, remember one thing it was because of greedy vultures and smoke and mirrors that most of this mess happened in the first place, all the fools just followed them. Today still 2-3 times 2000 pricing is a joke is some areas because in 2000 housing was already grossly overpriced in terms of value to the dollar. Do these fucking manipulators think everyone is so damn stupid not to see this? I'll stay away and rent thank you (that's what they don't want to hear or see happen.) They want people now to think they better jump and buy or an investor will buy it first? LOL my say is, go ahead, and please take it. Let them get into yet another hole, this time there is no one or source to bail them out.

14   Teddybearneil   2011 Apr 20, 10:36pm  

Investors inflating prices with borrowed money is one thing, but investors buying cheap with their own cash is totally different and very acceptable. Dunno why hypocrites equate both!!

15   Teddybearneil   2011 Apr 20, 10:43pm  

The other thing I noticed is that at least in the case of Fannie Mae, the first preference is for owner occupant bidders and only after 10 days of no bids from the prospective owner occupants, does the property become available to other bidders. People who were smart enough not to buy homes at inflated and speculative prices and continued to rent and save are now in a position to buy properties with cash. Don't vilify these people and make saints out of spendthrifts who cannot save enough to make a 20% down payment!! Whiners!!

16   commonsense   2011 Apr 20, 10:43pm  

If it is a level playing field @Teddybearneil then yes, but taking 20K or 20% or whatever less than an offer on the table (as one illustrated) just because of it being cash? That is entirely another scenario. Any discount for cash tells me the property is no. 1 already overpriced even at a sell off and no.2 there are backdoor dealings going on. As for hypocrites? A hypocrite would be one doing the same thing, but calling it out. I don't see that happening.

17   commonsense   2011 Apr 20, 10:48pm  

Do you really think in this economy most people who stayed out of the smoke and mirror real estate game are now cash buyers? Come on.

18   Done!   2011 Apr 21, 12:04am  

HousingWatcher says

I wonder who these investors are. Are they small time investors? Or are they mega vulture funds with tens of millions of dolalrs? I’m guessing the latter.

I think they are monkey investors. As in Monkey see Monkey do.

This is a very old story for South Florida, it effected South Florida in two ways. First the Investors kept control over the legitimate market, by scavenging the carrion houses off the market at a low cut rate price of course. For the last three years, potential wold be home buyers saw these 25K-120K transactions, yet the only houses Realtors were willing to show us were the 225K -300K range.

It was only a matter of time before these investors would need to then move these houses to raise money for what ever reason. In most cases they ended up selling them for around the price they paid, or just a little above. In the mean time all of the bottom of the barrel transactions, can't help but to effect the over all market.

Now when I see a bourgeois house selling for 250K or more, I laugh they are one of the last hold outs. Or they aren't really serious about selling, but they list it anyway.

19   commonsense   2011 Apr 21, 12:15am  

@Tenouncetrout You are a mind reader. I am in Palm Beach, Florida. I agree with you 100%. I've seen the circus in South Florida from start ...and can't say finish because the lunacy continues here (often with disastrous results.) There is no logic here in my view at all, plenty of hold outs and all getting burnt. I cannot tell you how many unsold overpriced dumps in Palm Beach County can't be sold because of the enormous loans against them are being rented out to multiple unrelated people. And I am not sure I understand about the Realtors you dealt with because they have an ethical (don't laugh) obligation to show all property you are interested in (and accept all offers) one would think that is the basis of their so-called professional code, no? If someone would like to add to this? Please jump in.

20   Schizlor   2011 Apr 21, 12:32am  

commonsense says

there are backdoor dealings going on.

21   commonsense   2011 Apr 21, 12:42am  

Well, the way buyers are being turned away or out of deals at 20K (or much greater) reductions what does that tell us? Something is going on because all offers are to be presented to owners. I am sure these must be bank owned? That changes the playing field scenario ...but still. Let's say that three or five people show up and higher bidders are being shut out and for cash discounts. What would it be called? Luck? I don't think so.

22   david1   2011 Apr 21, 12:42am  

South Florida (and by that I mean the area from North Palm Beach to Miami on the east coast) is like Coastal California from LA to San Diego, except with less education on average. I lived in Ft. Lauderdale for most of my 20s. Most of the jobs consist of high pressure selling the flavor of the week (be it penny stocks, commodities, mortgages, etc) in a pseudo professional environment.

It is chock full of a-holes willing to spend $18 on a drink. $30,000 a year millionaires everywhere in the 45 and under crowd...and snowbirds from New England or Quebec round out the rest...at least thats how it was when I left in 2008. The % of BMW/M-Bs is absurd, especially considering the median household income is south of $50k a year.

They should just let the next Cat 5 that comes through put that place out of its misery.

23   commonsense   2011 Apr 21, 12:52am  

@david1 I agree. I came of age in Southern California. You are correct. I may disagree on education levels they are similar I think. I do agree on the scenario similarities, plenty of the same here as there in my view i.e. All highly overrated, crime filled, strip malls, and yes the infamous wannabe millionaires with their bullshit, their high mortgages and high car payments. It's all an overrated fake bad joke.

24   Done!   2011 Apr 21, 1:13am  

david1 says

…and snowbirds from New England or Quebec round out the rest…at least thats how it was when I left in 2008.

You haven't been here in years, as we haven't had the "Snow bird" crowd, in well over a decade or more.
Don't forget it was all of those original "Snow Bird" owners that either died off or got to old to make the trip, or for what ever reason, sold all of their winter homes in Hollywood and the surrounding area.

I miss those snow birds, at least they kept the lawns up, and knew the value of old mature landscape growth, on both energy conservation as well as general esthetics of the overall neighborhood.
Same neighborhoods, 10 years latter or so, the landscape was all ripped out to show these less than mediocre concrete boxy structures on dead lawn lot. The icing on the cake is, the flipper herd systematically ripped off the roof tiles, and replaced it with fiberglass shingles.

Snow birds were a pain in the ass to have around when they lived here, but they were far from ghetto, and knew the value of Tropical vegetation for curb appeal over a bucket of turkey shit brown paint.

25   investor   2011 Apr 21, 2:30am  

I am attempting to be an investor and have made cash offers on houses. Unfortunately, I have yet to buy one as the banks are required to wait 15 days before allowing an offer from an investor. Instead the owner occupied gets first crack each time the owner occupied has gotten the house even though I have made full price cash offers. I resent this. This is artificially driving up prices as the banks are required to take a bad risk. In the end it means more bailout money, this helps nobody.

26   Infiltrate   2011 Apr 21, 2:42am  

Investors aren't all that bad. I'm being bailed out by one this week. The short sale of my home is actually happening after 10 months waiting. I had a cash offer from day one but the bank dragged their feet on it and my original investor took off. After we got word that the short sale was actually approved and ready to be finalized, we had to start from scratch to find a new cash offer. It took 3 days to find one. I will be renting the same house from the investor so I'm not moving out. And with the situation the way it is, I'm willing to bet I can buy back the house after my credit improves in the next three years.

27   ROLF   2011 Apr 21, 3:58am  

I'm a newly minted Realtor and I have been spending alot of time analyzing HUD/foreclosure/distressed properties in the area. Going by the public information such as previous selling prices and the amounts owed at foreclosure, alot of these places are going for 30-40% of their peak selling prices. It looks to me like somebody with some cash can really get alot for the money...NOW is the opportunity time. Will prices go down even further ? Maybe on the better properties-the lowest are astonishingly low-

28   RealisticOptimist   2011 Apr 21, 4:44am  

@commonsense - the reason that cash offers are accepted for less money is because it's less of a hassle for the banks. Less paperwork, no worry about whether the buyers will be approved. You are getting a discount for making it easier for them. Also, it generally only works with distressed properties.

But like you said in early threads, they will most likely lose. If the property wouldn't sell before, a coat of paint isn't going to suddenly make it desirable. Depending on where you are, MAJOR renovations might make the property more appealing and worth more. In that case, they are essentially making money for the work done to fix the house up. I see no problem with this. They are providing actual value.

29   Misstrial   2011 Apr 21, 5:18am  

RealisticOptimist says

Because of that, I’ve considered investing out of state, in a depressed market such as Phoenix (because I’m familiar with the area). To bring up Misstrial’s points - I’m not a “specuvestor” - I’d like to be an investor, though ANY investment involves some speculation, but so does every decision in life for that matter. If I buy gold and silver that would be more speculative than buying property. I have no idea if gold will go up or down. I can guess, but then again, I can also bet on the Knicks game on Friday.

Unfortunately for you, I am also an investor and your comments regarding gold & silver are bogus.

Take a look at any chart for the price action for the precious metals and you will see that prices have steadily gone upwards for the past decade. Yes there are small pullbacks, but by and large precious metals is the place to be.

http://www.kitco.com/charts/historicalgold.html

Check the box on the above-page for historical years 2000 to present, under 'Multi-Year Gold'

Good grief even hedge funds have large positions in physical metals all the while shorting the miners (which is why they are called 'hedge' funds).

The fact that you so clearly got it wrong regarding the PM market tells me that you are nothing but a small-time, two-bit real estate speculator seeking to try to justify making a mint off on the backs of renters.

You are the sort of landlord that AZ doesn't need: renting to cartel members in central Phoenix or illegals involved in human smuggling on the west.

Spare me your self-righteous, self-congratulatory, self-aggrandizing, self-promo.

~Misstrial

30   Â¥   2011 Apr 21, 5:26am  

RealisticOptimist says

This idea is encroaching on dangerous territory. I don’t think it’s fair to get upset with people who have cash on hand to purchase a property. They are putting all of that money at risk should the property values fall.

Risk is not the right metric to determine the usefulness of investment. Wholesaling heroin is a risky enterprise too.

This isn’t artificial demand because they got some no money down loan or gov’t subsidy. They are taking REAL dollars and making a purchase. People are entitled to do what they want with their money.

Investment in SFH is *entirely* parasitical in nature and if I were king I'd tax it so hard to break these fuckers' business models.

This "risk" investment is not funding job growth or new capital formation here, it is sheer economic vampirism, *utterly* worthless, other than providing a market or people needing to sell in a given area, but there are other ways to accomplish that (eg. community land banks).

Channeling private investment away from predation in real estate is one of the secrets of Hong Kong and Singapore's success. Failing to do is China, Vietnam, Japan, and our greatest economic fault.

31   Misstrial   2011 Apr 21, 5:32am  

Infiltrate says

Investors aren’t all that bad. I’m being bailed out by one this week. The short sale of my home is actually happening after 10 months waiting. I had a cash offer from day one but the bank dragged their feet on it and my original investor took off. After we got word that the short sale was actually approved and ready to be finalized, we had to start from scratch to find a new cash offer. It took 3 days to find one. I will be renting the same house from the investor so I’m not moving out. And with the situation the way it is, I’m willing to bet I can buy back the house after my credit improves in the next three years.

Now just think how much better we'd all be if you weren't in this position to begin with, such as having lived within your means like renters have to do each and every month.

And you think you'll recover in 3 years?

Having counseled hundreds of debtors in various legal predicaments, all I can say is that son, "You're dreamin'."

To this very day, the banks and lenders are not even granting secured credit cards until one year has passed from a foreclosure date (lenders look at short-sales as foreclosures).

And to top it off there is the big increase in energy, food costs, and interest rates coming by summertime.

Its sickening to see homedebtors and the broke-@ssed former property owners boast how quickly they're going to make their comeback. Hah!

~Misstrial

32   Misstrial   2011 Apr 21, 5:37am  

Troy says

Investment in SFH is *entirely* parasitical in nature and if I were king I’d tax it so hard to break these fuckers’ business models.

This “risk” investment is not funding job growth or new capital formation here, it is sheer economic vampirism, *utterly* worthless, other than providing a market or people needing to sell in a given area, but there are other ways to accomplish that (eg. community land banks).

Channeling private investment away from predation in real estate is one of the secrets of Hong Kong and Singapore’s success. Failing to do is China, Vietnam, Japan, and our greatest economic fault.

Awesome post and well stated!

~Misstrial

33   burritos   2011 Apr 21, 6:12am  

All you proclaimed proud renters. Who do you think you're renting from?

34   Â¥   2011 Apr 21, 6:30am  

burritos says

All you proclaimed proud renters. Who do you think you’re renting from?

very wealthy people; my rent checks go to downtown Boston. I'm in a reasonably nice multifamily place. It was sold last year for $100M, and the rents are around $11M/yr. Property tax is $1M, if I were king it would be $5M/yr, since the place is nice and all but it was built in the late 80s so much of the property value is sheer site value and not undepreciated capital investment.

Curiously, the county agrees with me. I see on the property roll that the land/improvement split is ~55/45.

35   Misstrial   2011 Apr 21, 6:32am  

burritos says

All you proclaimed proud renters. Who do you think you’re renting from?

Ans:

I only rent from individual landlords who have been landlording for 10+ years and who have purchased their properties back in the mid-1990's or earlier.

Being the "perfect" tenant allows me to have the luxury of choosing my landlord, just like they choose me. Goes both ways here.

I also check property tax records to make certain that the landlord is current on taxes, plus I do an additional loan check via a property profile through First American.
No newbies. No accidental landlords and certainly not any defaulters.

To clarify further, each and every landlord I have rented from is a multi-millionaire, generally Democrat politically although I have rented from conservative Republicans. Both, having the criteria I mentioned above, have been excellent landlords who I would recommend to any considerate tenant.

btw, "proud renter" = wealthy renter here, so watch your snark, please.

T/Y!

~Misstrial

36   common_sense   2011 Apr 21, 7:09am  

I'll bet many of these investors are Chinese. This same thing happened in Vancouver Canada just before the 1997 reversion of Hong Kong to communist China. Hong Kongers were walking in with cash, buying up several $1M houses at once and leaving us mortgage buyers out in the cold. It's unfortunate, but expect it to continue with the demise of the US dollar and China's economic growth.

37   burritos   2011 Apr 21, 7:23am  

Misstrial says

:

I only rent from individual landlords who have been landlording for 10+ years and who have purchased their properties back in the mid-1990’s or earlier.

Being the “perfect” tenant allows me to have the luxury of choosing my landlord, just like they choose me. Goes both ways here.

I also check property tax records to make certain that the landlord is current on taxes, plus I do an additional loan check via a property profile through First American.
No newbies. No accidental landlords and certainly not any defaulters.

To clarify further, each and every landlord I have rented from is a multi-millionaire, generally Democrat politically although I have rented from conservative Republicans. Both, having the criteria I mentioned above, have been excellent landlords who I would recommend to any considerate tenant.

btw, “proud renter” = wealthy renter here, so watch your snark, please.

T/Y!

~Misstrial

These 10+ year landlords at one time were newbies. Or they inherited it, which from a meritocratic point of view, is even worse. So why can't there be new newbies? 10 years ago, I was just getting out of college, so I personally need some time to get up to speed to build my portfolio. Now, I'm not saying "you" need to rent from a newbie. But this thread gives me the impression that there should be no landlords newbie or otherwise and that all residences should be owned by the occupant.

I vote green in all elections.

38   Misstrial   2011 Apr 21, 7:52am  

burritos says

These 10+ year landlords at one time were newbies. Or they inherited it, which from a meritocratic point of view, is even worse. So why can’t there be new newbies? 10 years ago, I was just getting out of college, so I personally need some time to get up to speed to build my portfolio. Now, I’m not saying “you” need to rent from a newbie. But this thread gives me the impression that there should be no landlords newbie or otherwise and that all residences should be owned by the occupant.

First, thank you for voting green.

Second, there are many reasons why I will not rent from a new landlord. I would have to make a list in order to be of help to you. Don't have the time now.

Although I will say one thing about new landlords - they seriously underestimate the maintenance costs of property ownership and they generally carry heavy loans against the property that gives them an observable level of financial anxiety which leads to frequent rent increases because they failed to plan for their investment. I don't want to rent from someone who cannot afford to take care of their property.

This precarious financial position results in an over-anxiety about their investment situation and they tend to over-worry about everything since they are on the edge assetwise. They tend to be tense and overly concerned with power.

Established landlords who are wealthy and whose net worth isn't dependent upon one or two investment positions have a relaxed attitude and don't get all upset because the water heater needs to be replaced, the dishwasher has rust and the pipes are severely corroded, or that an overceiling water pipe burst during an earthquake necessitating ceiling repairs.

I could go on but you should get an idea of where I'm coming from. My spouse is an engineer who performs all sorts of repairs himself so the landlord's repair or maintenance costs are kept as low as possible. (We do not charge for labor, only replacement cost of items agreed upon.) Hate to brag, but we are ideal renters.

And another thing about new landlords is that they tend to withhold security deposits (for very minor repairs that are legally considered "normal wear and tear") more than established landlords.

I haven't personally experienced this however in my line of work (law) I do a fair amount of legal counseling to tenants who are facing this problem.

I have other reasons, don't have time to do a comprehensive list. In any event, for these causes I will not rent from a new landlord with less than 10 years experience.

~Misstrial

39   mcjimmy   2011 Apr 21, 7:54am  

I've experienced this first hand. I'm a first time buyer with a baby on the way. I have been using Patrick's formula and trying to at least break even with a home around 400-430K in the San Jose area. The two houses I have found and made offers on have not worked out because in both cases I have had to compete with 5-10 all cash offers. It's discouraging to say the least.

40   ArtimusMaxtor   2011 Apr 21, 8:29am  

Yep thats another way around it. Those dagnabity investors driving the price of houses down. WHY YOU COULD HAVE PAID MORE. I say we all go after that investor. Because he deprived you of paying 20% more. I think every retail buyer should pay more. Because well even a realtor will tell you nothing better than a big juicy steer for dinner.

So a realtor probably got screwed in this one too. See now you could go out an find a house for 20% less in this enviornment. Because if you look out your window realtors are now eating grass instead of food for dinner. But you have no window of course because the stupid investor stole that from you. I like Patricks formula also. However this give me a chance to ask if Californians like paying the highest gas prices in the land. Because well the tax base is so eroded. The price of gas has gone up. The only joy in this for me is the leeches have to pay for their freebies now.

Comments 1 - 40 of 72       Last »     Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions