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Slightly OT(but slightly not)...Why are people so dumb?

By CovfefeButDeadly following x   2011 Jun 11, 4:34am 17,721 views   189 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


I am not talking about IQ or intelligence level.

I'm talking about uncaring and unthinking. The people who walk or drive around in a daze....they have the intellectual capacity, but choose not to use it.

The people who buy houses in CA at the moment.

This is actually sort of a serious question. And for it I go back to my grandparents. Immigrated here from Germany in the early 1920's. Both their parents had fought in WWI for the Germans, and they came here because Germany was @^%$^ up. Seriously, my grandfather was starving to death in Berlin. Came here, learned english real quick, finished school up through 8th grade and thats it. Went to work. No advanced education. Not even a serious worker. My grandfather played semi pro baseball and was drafted by the Yankees, but broke his leg on the last game before reporting to the Yankees minor league team. My grandmothers life was unremarkable as well. I'm not even sure when they met.

But they did, saved, went to work really hard jobs during the depression, saved more, bought a house. In 1941 at age 37, my grandfather, with baby on the way, was drafted into WWII. He was a medic under Gen. Stillwell in southeast asia, assigned to assist a Chinese Army unit. At some point along the way, things were a real bloodbath there. I only know that from history, he would never talk about it except to complain about marching over the Burma road a couple times, and saying that they had to stand watch at night more due to the tigers than the japanese.

When he got back, they stayed in the same 2 bed/1ba house, even with a kid. He got a job at a nearby tire factory. They were happy and even though they never had a TON of money to spend, they enjoyed life pretty well. honestly, California seems to have been almost a magical place in the 50's. The picture perfect land of milk and honey.

After years at the tire factory, he became very involved with the union, eventually retiring and going to work for the union full time. At some point in the early 70's, he felt the union was pushing pay too much. He warned that the tire company would move if the union kept trying to negotiate higher salaries. He retired in 1975 in part because of the unions insistence on negotiating higher salaries. The tire factory closed in 1979, and I can't remember if they moved to another state, or overseas, but nearly all their production is now overseas. The location is now the Citadel shopping center in Commerce.

So he retired at 65, enjoyed the last 10 years of his life retired. Never spent a lot...def did not buy stuff he did not need. He did collect stamps, coins, and model trains. He started buying me baseball cards in 1979 when he would pick me up from school once a week. We would go and get an ice cream at Thrifty's and a $0.15 pack of Topps baseball cards. He drove the same car for 10 years before replacing it, took a vacation once a year, spent when it was justified, was frugal most of the rest of the time.

My grandmother was a clerk with the county part time for 30 years.

Despite no real education, they managed all this(with six figures in the bank as well). They used what was known as "common sense". Things they could not figure out for themselves...they took the advice of someone who was brighter. They did things the "tried and true" way. And they never needed, wanted, or pursued extravagance, even when they had actually worked hard and earned it. A night out once a week was an ice cream cone and movie in a more upscale area like Whittier or Downey. Vacation was a tent in Yosemite. A car was a means to transport them somewhere. Pleasure was a glass of fresh squeezed orange juice on the backyard patio.

So whats the point of all this? It's to question how people currently live their lives. Still after all the economic problems of the past 6-7 years, people still INSIST entitlement to material goods. People still stretch to buy the most house they can possibly get a loan for. And people still run around without any regard for common sense.

And so onto my question...Where is the disconnect? How did we go from immigrants who could not speak the language comming here and building a hard scrabble life into the quintissential American Dream....to what we have now days. People who are seemingly incapable of exercising common sense. People who spend nonsensical high 6 and low seven figure amounts on homes and land that in no way shape or form will ultimately sustain a value that high. People who make the largest(by far) purchase of their life on whimsy and emotion USING SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY(EFF U SUZANNE).

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150   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 2:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SubOink says

I guess Klarek sleeps better reminding himself that he is debt free. And when he can’t pay his rent and gets evicted from his rental house he can tell the landlord that he is debt free. I believe he still would have to move out because the landlord wants a check regardless.

And when suboink can't pay his mortgage he can live for free for several years, take a temporary hit on his credit, and be...(drum roll, please)... DEBT FREE!!! In the words of Yakoff Smirnoff..."What a country!!!"

Oh relax suboink (and everyone else for that matter), I just thought I might interject this funny (albeit sad, but true) comment in the middle of this argument that went on for far too long.

151   bubblesitter   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 2:50pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Are we ready to conclude? Rent=debt or no?

152   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 2:53pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bubblesitter says

Are we ready to conclude? Rent=debt or no?

Why don't you conclude it for us? Then we can all get on with our lives.

153   bubblesitter   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 2:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Houseless but not homeless says

bubblesitter says

Are we ready to conclude? Rent=debt or no?

Why don’t you conclude it for us? Then we can all get on with our lives.

Yeah, All the arguments on this thread are going nowhere. Simple fact is RENT != DEBT cuz you don't borrow upfront to pay it back. Oh well!

154   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 3:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

AND THERE WE HAVE IT!!!!

GAME! SET! MAAAAAAATCH!!!!!!!!!!

Great game everyone! Beers are on me!

155   bjones   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 3:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

to corntrollio:

haha! dude, when i'm sitting on the toilet, i forget more about finance than you've ever known. but that's neither here nor there. i'll respond to your points and then let you have the last word, should you choose. after that, we can respectfully agree to disagree and let the people extract what value may exist in this thread.

1) Umm, yeah, libertarianism isn't practical, do you want a cookie?

A) yes, i do want a cookie but would prefer a bottle of your finest champagne in return for educating you. this conversation requires i get drunk.

2) I'm not sure what the "analyst" non-sense is about. I'm not sure why this is about semantics either. I gave the summation at the bottom that had nothing to do with accounting principles, which you completely got wrong. bjones says

A) why did i bring up the "analyst". my error was in giving you credit for being far more intelligent than you actually are. since it was you who introduced the concept of capital leases vs. operating, i assumed you actually understood how they are used. instead, you've turned out to be more like that pompous retard in Goodwill Hunting who could quote (in your case, copy and past) text-book sound information, but had no understanding as to how to apply it in a practical fashion. if you know about leases, you should know how one (an analyst) would adjust for them when valuing an opportunity or entity. this is what i was trying to say:

you talking crap: i'm smart enough to copy and paste, errrr, know that residential leases are different from loans. an example would be the treatment of loans and commercial leases vs operating leases. here is webster's definition, errrr, some of my commentary on how this works.

me owning you: uh, actually, any analyst worth their weight in dog shi!t knows that BOTH are treated in the same fashion and, if the company doesn't, it's the job of the analyst to rectify this egregious error on their b.s too make sure they are treated equally.

you not knowing what to say: uh, why are you bringing up analyst

me owning you: are you female and hot? because if not, i'm wasting my time.

3) Are you actually saying that people don't see different forms of payment differently? If you aren't, then that's a pretty ridiculous and naive statement. People absolutely see their mortgages as different from credit card and different from owing their brother money. The statistics and studies agree with me. Just look at people's defaulting behavior. bjones says

A) Yes, you are right! once again, we agree. my point, though, is most people (that means 51+ out of every 100 asked) look at these decisions based on the impact they will have on their credit report and not whether the debt is secured or unsecured! sh!t, most people don't know what secured vs unsecured means!

4) People who only focus on their credit report are taking a pretty narrow and naive focus on finance. In addition, what you're saying is false. I have broken a lease before with no consequence to my credit report and no lawsuit or any other legal or financial problem, but I've never paid a credit card late. In any case, no need to get all defensive because you don't understand accounting. It's fine. As you said, plenty of people don't understand finance.

A) narrow focus?? not really. for most people (see above for def of "most" people), their entire existence is dictated by their ability to obtain credit. the neighborhood in which they may live, the schools their kids may attend, the car they may drive, the vacations they make take, etc... yes, for regular joe's, their credit score is their life-blood to a better existence. maybe your circumstances are different. can't say. but what i do know is one's focus on their credit score is a hell of a lot wider than you may think.

ha! no wonder we disagree. you should write a book entitled, "deadbeats who break their leases and get away with it."
but, let me reference one of the 21st century's greatest philosophers. like chris rock once said, "you can raise a kid by yourself, but that doesn't mean it's a m.f. good idea."

great, you broke your lease with no repercussions. guess what- i can name a few people who've stopped paying their mortgage a really really long time ago and they're still living in the residence and doing alright. you're a deadbeat and they're deadbeats and you both haven't suffered. great. doesn't make it a good idea to walk away from a liability, regardless of it's classification.

in fact, you have to be a complete jack-a$$ to even insinuate that it's ok to do so. but, maybe that's just me and my self-righteous belief in merit, accountability and treating others with the respect and dignity i'd would expect. not everyone cares about things such as those....

156   corntrollio   ignore (1)   2011 Jun 14, 3:29pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

haha! dude, when i’m sitting on the toilet

Yeah, well you sure do a lot of talking out of your ass, so it makes sense that you'd talk about your toilet habits.

It's funny, I gave plenty of practical considerations, and you gave plenty of theoretical considerations that don't pan out in practice, and yet you're accusing me of the Good Will Hunting textbook crap.

You tried to school people in accounting and failed, and yet you keep talking. The analyst crap is just a smokescreen for the initial failing. Yes, everyone who knows finance knows about how you can take things off-balance sheet, but accounting is accounting and something completely different.

bjones says

great, you broke your lease with no repercussions. guess what- i can name a few people who’ve stopped paying their mortgage a really really long time ago and they’re still living in the residence and doing alright. you’re a deadbeat and they’re deadbeats and you both haven’t suffered. great. doesn’t make it a good idea to walk away from a liability, regardless of it’s classification.

Perhaps, but I was prepared to deal with the contractual liability from breaking my lease. The landlord knew that it wasn't worth pursuing, and I had claims against the landlord for inhabitability issues, so he knew that he could face something, so we both walked away. Knowing when to litigate and when to exercise your contractual rights and how to interpret and use contractual remedies to your advantage is a good thing.

157   bjones   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 3:57pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

touche. you've shown to have a very sound understanding of the topics you've beached.

we def have some fundamental disagreements. however, i think we agree on more than we disagree.

our disagreements are akin to arguing over the best slice of pizza- it makes the other person talk about the 2nd greatest slice like its dog food.

let's move on to something else. how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.

158   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 4:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.

Wouldn't that be a topic for another thread? Please link me. You have piqued my curiosity.

159   corntrollio   ignore (1)   2011 Jun 14, 4:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

we def have some fundamental disagreements. however, i think we agree on more than we disagree.

Most likely that's true, although I'm still waiting for some libertarian-type to complain about people with guns taking their money. You seem pretty knowledgeable yourself.

bjones says

let’s move on to something else. how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.

Amen. I don't read the investing forum here that much because it seems a little quiet. Maybe I should post my long post about variable universal life insurance there.

160   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 4:06pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

our disagreements are akin to arguing over the best slice of pizza- it makes the other person talk about the 2nd greatest slice like its dog food.

I prefer the "hole in the wall" joints back in the Bronx myself....but that's just me. Again, a topic for another thread.

161   bjones   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 4:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"Maybe I should post my long post about variable universal life insurance there."

alright. now we're making progress. i could def write some commentary in support of that effort.

in fact, i saw you comment on the thread about the "150k inc looking for inv. ideas" thread.

that guy would be perfect for vul, should he be in the market for ins.

HOUSELESS BUT NOT HOMELESS:

i'm game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.

162   bjones   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 4:16pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I prefer the “hole in the wall” joints back in the Bronx myself….but that’s just me. Again, a topic for another thread.

ha. can't speak for the bronx but can def recommend a few places in the city, should you be here in the late-night hours.

163   Houseless but not homeless   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 14, 4:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

i’m game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.

I've got nothing to bring to the table except my ears (or eyes, depending how you "look" at it.)

Your call.

164   corntrollio   ignore (1)   2011 Jun 14, 4:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bjones says

i’m game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.

I'm game.

165   FunTime   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 15, 7:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Waste not want not! Eat the dead and try not to envy them.

This, btw, is the only way to eat a 'complete' protein from one food source. Just one of the things I learned reading 'The China Study.'

166   corntrollio   ignore (1)   2011 Jun 15, 7:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FunTime says

his, btw, is the only way to eat a ‘complete’ protein from one food source.

Soylent Green is made of used house salesmen!

167   FunTime   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 15, 7:53am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sybrib says

That is the point. A good place for everyday life beats the hell out of a Cool and Hip Place. The Cool and Hip place is cool and it is hip, but that’s about it.

Yeah, but doesn't seeing the Magna Carta set a helpful context for having the experiences in your first list? I would say some experiences you're calling "Cool and Hip" are being undersold, because they do go beyond just hipness and help inform the thoughts you have about family.

168   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 15, 1:47pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FunTime says

doesn’t seeing the Magna Carta set a helpful context for having the experiences in your first list?

Yes it does, and so does the reality of it that I didn't have to see the thing to appreciate it.

Kind of like other important documents, the Real Magna Carta, the one that matters, is not the animal hide it was written on; the Real Magna Carta is the ideas expressed on it.

But it's really Cool and Hip to boast and flaunt that it came to be displayed in our region and not some place in flyover land.

169   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 15, 1:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

dodgerfanjohn says

People who only focus on their credit report are taking a pretty narrow and naive focus on finance

No kidding!

The Over The Top obsession with credit scores is just an incessant attempt to Gin Us Up to keep borrowing and paying them interest.

God forbid we go on borrowing strike, it'll force down the interest payments they get as the compete with each other to lend to us.

The rentiers need us to borrow a whole lot more than we need to do the borrowing.

170   bubblesitter   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 4:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sybrib says

The Over The Top obsession with credit scores

Biggest scam on this planet, run by the US banks. Screw it, CASH ONLY!

171   FortWayne   ignore (4)   2011 Jun 16, 7:01am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bubblesitter says

Sybrib says

The Over The Top obsession with credit scores

Biggest scam on this planet, run by the US banks. Screw it, CASH ONLY!

much, much agreed. So despicable and disgusting how people like sheep line up to be good consumers to bow down before the banks and their credit score system.

Oh how things have changed. We have an entire generation of sheep. What happened to good old America where you could tell the bank to shove it and they would come chasing after you begging you to take their money because we were all allergic to debt. Today it's the other way around, there is even a tollbooth between houses and people. You want to buy a house, pay your toll to the bank first.

172   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 9:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SubOink says

There are area’s in CA where you can buy a newly build 3000sqft home for $175k. That’s more than half of what it would actually cost to build (permits+labor+material)…its common sense that those area’s won’t go much further. They may stay at these levels but sinking significantly lower? How do you reason your claims?

LOL, very simple.

These houses should never be built. People do not need to live in these areas. These houses have no value at all but may be the price of firewood you can make from them minus what you will pay to illegal mexicans to cut and chop the wood.

173   michaelsch   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 9:49am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

IT Guru says

What I mean to say is, I want to die with nothing in my pockets after having a great life enjoying the limited time afforded me. So many on these forums write about how much they have in the bank or in investments. They wake up looking at the balances and pinch every penny. I rent a small apartment, drive a beater, and save 1000 bucks for any emergency. I blow all the rest enjoying myself and on others. By the way I make a six figure salary and have zip in 401k or stocks or banks. They are all setup to take from us.

How old are you? At what age you want to die with nothing in your pockets?

174   IT Guru   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 11:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

43. And I have been all over the world. I started in the marine corps at 17 fought in the gulf war. Got out in 1991 and worked odd jobs. Traveled some more, went to university when I turned 30, now I am a IT director fOr the Feds. I do not have cable tv or and debts what so ever. I rent and when most people spend money on stuff or feed it to the stock market in 401k's that the guberment will take later on, I enjoy my money today. I own a iPhone a beater car and got all my furniture on craigslist fOr free. I bring my lunch to work and live I. Jeans an tee shirts. I also make a six figure income with a pension. So life is very good. People even if you dO not make a lot of money if you realize that life is short and enjoy it now then you win.

175   IT Guru   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 12:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

RealisticOptimist says

IT Guru says

What I mean to say is, I want to die with nothing in my pockets after having a great life enjoying the limited time afforded me. So many on these forums write about how much they have in the bank or in investments. They wake up looking at the balances and pinch every penny. I rent a small apartment, drive a beater, and save 1000 bucks for any emergency. I blow all the rest enjoying myself and on others. By the way I make a six figure salary and have zip in 401k or stocks or banks. They are all setup to take from us.

What the hell do you spend your money on? Prostitues and blow? haha.

Actually yes, I travel all over the world and have a great time. I enjoy my money and think retirement is a bullshit idea. Also I have no credit as it is a fucking scam.

176   IT Guru   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 16, 12:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It sure is. I used to have a high fico score which only put me into debt. I learned this game very young and now no credit or debt. Just take me paycheck and travel and go out a lot. Retirement is a scam as well. After a year or so retired I would be so fucking bored. I am at the beach typing this.

177   FunTime   ignore (0)   2011 Jun 20, 3:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sybrib says

But it’s really Cool and Hip to boast and flaunt that it came to be displayed in our region and not some place in flyover land.

Oh, I understand better. Thanks. You were addressing the exclusivity of the availability as the hipness part.

I agree with your thoughts about getting the concepts without having to see the actual place they were written down, but I also know that my brain sometimes doesn't get these concepts until they're staring me right in the face. Sometimes the abstraction of words obscures a deeper meaning and a connection with the writer.

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