patrick.net

 
  forgot password?   register

#housing #investing #politics more»
757,342 comments in 77,978 posts by 11,098 registered users, 1 online now: YesYNot

new post

Is It Murder to Kill Civilians in the Invasion of a Country Based Upon Lies?

By Blurtman   2014 Jun 24, 5:24am   1 link   24,246 views   83 comments   watch (0)   quote      

Recall Johns Hopkins epidemiologists concluded that 100,000 mostly women, children and elderly were killed during the opening invasion itself. Many more after that. Did the pilots that blew apart women and kids get a nice welcome from their kiddies upon returning home? Was it on TeeVee?

Yes - Like

No- Dislike

« First     « Previous     Comments 44-83 of 83     Last »

44   Dan8267   2014 Jun 25, 1:37pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

When you go after terrorists, innocent people are bound to die.

Prove it.

Read your list of victims above. None of them were intentionally killed.

1. Even if you were right, that does not prove your assertion that innocent people must die to fight terrorism.

2. You are wrong. Each person was deliberately killed. They do not have to be the target in order to have been deliberately killed. There was always a person who decided that attempting to get the target merit killing some innocents in the area. That person made the deliberate choice to use a weapons system despite the resulting innocent deaths. Apathy does not wash away guilt. Simply because one murders others, not out of hate, but out of apathy does not make the crime any less.

Strategist says

True. Does not mean we should not go after terrorists.

The question is how to go after so-called terrorists. Our current techniques simply increase the amount of terrorism in the world. We create entire generations of young people who's lifetime goal will be vengeance against us for our evil acts. This makes us less safe.

Strategist says

How would you define or label the 19 who flew into WTC. ??

I don't. It is not necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to prosecute him in an open and just court. Nor is it necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to condemn his actions.

Strategist says

The Nazis may have labeled Jews as terrorists, but the Jews were still innocent. Terrorists who blow up children are not innocent. They are terrorists.

I agree. And when America blows up children, America is not innocent. America politicians go give the orders are terrorists. American soldiers who carry out those orders are terrorists. American citizens who support these policies are terrorists. The same standard applies to all.

Strategist says

So you will back me up when I say terrorists groups who slaughter and rape women in Africa should be bombed?

Not if it means bombing innocent women in their camps. I have no problem taking out those who are actively trying to rape or murder others. I have a big problem with killing innocent bystanders. There are rapists roaming the streets of New York City right now. Should we nuke New York?
Strategist says

Killing Al Qaeda is fully justified and not evil, but moral.

The phrase "killing Al Qaeda" is meaningless. One kills people, not organizations. And yes, killing people you consider evil or subhuman is still evil. At best it is the lesser of evils, but it is still evil.

Furthermore, considering those persons to be subhuman makes the act even more evil.

Strategist says

We don't have evil intentions.

Bull-fucking-shit. America is a country that has committed over a dozen genocides, has practiced slavery for hundreds of years and still does, and sexually assaults over 2.5 million of its citizens every year via strip searches and body cavity searches. America has supported genocidal dictators in South America, practice torture for decades (yes, even before Gitmo and 9/11), and threatened war with nations if they do not give up their natural resources to us.

To say that our nation has not acted on extremely selfish and evil intentions is utterly ridiculous.

Strategist says

Terrorists are not brave. They are brainwashed cowards. What's wrong with you?

Brave people are heroes. Are the suicide bombers your heroes?

You're a fucking idiot and emotionally immature.

The world brave means overcoming fear. There is nothing braver than overcoming the fear of death to accomplish something, which is exactly what suicide bombers do.

But like most retarded idiots, you cannot distinguish between the dichotomy of bravery/cowardice and the dichotomy of good/evil. Bravery is not inherently good. Bravery can be used to commit acts of evil, and fear can be used to commit acts of good. The attributes are independent.

Being brave does not make one a hero. Only a fool believes that. The NAZI soldier who rushes into battle to slaughter American G.I.s sure as fuck was brave. That does not mean he was on the side of good.

To say that suicide bombers are cowards is the god-damn stupidest thing ever said on this planet. If they were cowards, they would be less dangerous because fear would keep them from blowing up themselves and others.

Just because you want to use the word coward to insult someone, doesn't make them a coward. Just because you want to reserve the word brave for only people your puny mind considers heroes doesn't mean the fighters on the side of evil aren't brave. It just means you are stupid and are underestimating the enemy.

And to try to imply that my words in any way suggested that suicide bombers are heroes, not only shows your utter inability to comprehend my writings, but it also shows a complete lack of character. Only people with indefensible positions use Straw Man arguments.

45   Dan8267   2014 Jun 25, 1:42pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Blurtman says

Collateral Murder

Exactly. Our country has committed the same atrocities as our enemies. We have committed far more acts of terrorism than they have, and in doing so, we have motivated much of the world to despise us with good cause.

The answer to terrorism is not to respond with more terrorism, but to undermine the foundation that supports terrorism including both religion and corporate greed. Reigning in our warfare industry, preventing our corporations from exploiting poor nations, and advancing education, especially scientific education, in the Middle East are the most effective ways we can eliminate terrorism for good.

You want to stop terrorism? Don't bomb schools; build them. An educated population is the greatest fear of Islamic terrorist groups. Why do you think they are so scared of girls getting education?

46   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 1:46pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Blurtman says

So we are talking about the invasion of Iraq. And it was no surprise that civilians would be blown to bits and burned alive during the invasion and subsequent aggression.

100K died from "acts of Violence"... well that could be anything.

And how many Iraqi insurgence were killed by Iraqi govt forces and vice versa... and if you bother to notice... more have killed each other than by coalition forces.

Today did you notice who is killing who ?

47   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 1:50pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Dan8267 says

You want to stop terrorism? Don't bomb schools; build them. An educated population is the greatest fear of Islamic terrorist groups. Why do you think they are so scared of girls getting education?

No wonder they have been teaching Nuclear physics in the middle east, for several decades...

48   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 1:52pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Dan8267 says

Bull-fucking-shit. America is a country that has committed over a dozen genocides, has practiced slavery for hundreds of years and still does, and sexually assaults over 2.5 million of its citizens every year via strip searches and body cavity searches. America has supported genocidal dictators in South America, practice torture for decades (yes, even before Gitmo and 9/11), and threatened war with nations if they do not give up their natural resources to us.

Laughable... only Dan comes up with the same nonsense...

49   Dan8267   2014 Jun 25, 1:55pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

thomaswong.1986 says

Laughable... only Dan comes up with the same nonsense...

Hey pussy, you're free to try to contradict any of the things I said. I'm free to kick your ass with mountains of evidence. Please do challenge me. I enjoy making you look the fool.

50   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 2:01pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Dan8267 says

PAKISTAN

Name | Age | Gender

Noor Aziz | 8 | male

Abdul Wasit | 17 | male

Noor Syed | 8 | male

Wajid Noor | 9 | male

Syed Wali Shah | 7 | male

Ayeesha | 3 | female

Qari Alamzeb | 14| male

Shoaib | 8 | male

Been to Chicago lately ? Might want to check the Gang infested hoods one day..

51   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 2:02pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Dan8267 says

Hey pussy, you're free to try to contradict any of the things I said. I'm free to kick your ass with mountains of evidence. Please do challenge me. I enjoy making you look the fool.

Same old bull shit ... typical ! well forget it .. not going to change.. so have a good cry and stick your tonge ups some terrorists ass and call him daddy..... Drones are flying killing off the bad guys... so fuck you!

52   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jun 25, 2:04pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

another fucking bad guy going down.. every fucking day!

they started it .. we will finish it...

and some fucking Socialist Prick has a problem with it.. laughable..

53   monkframe   2014 Jun 25, 2:09pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

And you're next...

54   Blurtman   2014 Jun 25, 2:32pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

thomaswong.1986 says

Blurtman says

So we are talking about the invasion of Iraq. And it was no surprise that civilians would be blown to bits and burned alive during the invasion and subsequent aggression.

100K died from "acts of Violence"... well that could be anything.

And how many Iraqi insurgence were killed by Iraqi govt forces and vice versa... and if you bother to notice... more have killed each other than by coalition forces.

Today did you notice who is killing who ?

Wrongo. Read on. Coalition (i.e., USA) warplanes were described as the cause.

55   BlueSardine   2014 Jun 25, 2:41pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Try to be compassionate and not so hard on them.
They are low information posters.
It's not their fault.
They live in some doped up nirvinaworld where everybody's just happy and the world is devoid of people wanting to hack your head off.
In reality, they just want to be left alone to smoke their stash....

thomaswong.1986 says

and some fucking Socialist Prick has a problem with it.. laughable..

56   Dan8267   2014 Jun 26, 1:54pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

thomaswong.1986 says

Drones are flying killing off the bad guys... so fuck you!

The problem is that they are killing dozens of innocent men, women, and children for every "bad guy" killed, which you would know if you actually read the evidence presented to you, dumb fuck.

Dan8267 says

3. I am not for drone strikes as they are being operated by the Obama administration because for every alleged terrorist killed by a drone strike, 10 to 50 innocent people including children are killed

But hey, if killing multitudes of innocents is justified to get one bad guy then let's start with your family. Until you're willing to sacrifice them to get a bad guy, you can take your hypocrisy and shove it up your ass.

57   monkframe   2014 Jun 26, 1:58pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Hey, they are just "little brown ones" (G. H. W. Bush) who cares?

58   BlueSardine   2014 Jun 26, 2:17pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Around these parts that could be taken as a compliment.

Dan8267 says

Until you're willing to sacrifice them to get a bad guy, you can take your hypocrisy and shove it up your ass.

59   Strategist   2014 Jun 26, 2:39pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

1. Even if you were right, that does not prove your assertion that innocent people must die to fight terrorism.

Innocent people are always the victims of any conflict. We do our best to avoid the deaths of innocent people, while terrorists do their best to kill innocent people.

Dan8267 says

2. You are wrong. Each person was deliberately killed. They do not have to be the target in order to have been deliberately killed. There was always a person who decided that attempting to get the target merit killing some innocents in the area. That person made the deliberate choice to use a weapons system despite the resulting innocent deaths. Apathy does not wash away guilt. Simply because one murders others, not out of hate, but out of apathy does not make the crime any less.

No was except the terrorists are deliberately killed. By your logic all wars are murder, which is an entirely different philosophical argument.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

True. Does not mean we should not go after terrorists.

The question is how to go after so-called terrorists. Our current techniques simply increase the amount of terrorism in the world. We create entire generations of young people who's lifetime goal will be vengeance against us for our evil acts. This makes us less safe.

OK, how would you go after terrorists?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

How would you define or label the 19 who flew into WTC. ??

I don't. It is not necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to prosecute him in an open and just court. Nor is it necessary or useful to dehumanize someone in order to condemn his actions.

You have no problem claiming Americans are murderers. Kind of hypocritical isn't it.
We want to dehumanize terrorists, we want to kill them even more. Killing them is what saves innocent lives.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

The Nazis may have labeled Jews as terrorists, but the Jews were still innocent. Terrorists who blow up children are not innocent. They are terrorists.

I agree. And when America blows up children, America is not innocent. America politicians go give the orders are terrorists. American soldiers who carry out those orders are terrorists. American citizens who support these policies are terrorists. The same standard applies to all.

Wow. You don't want to label terrorists who blow up children, but have no problem calling Americans who support killing terrorists, as being terrorists. Does not sound rational to me.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Terrorists are not brave. They are brainwashed cowards. What's wrong with you?


Brave people are heroes. Are the suicide bombers your heroes?

You're a fucking idiot and emotionally immature.

I just won the debate. I knew you had no chance at all. :)

60   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 26, 3:18pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

. One of the largest problems with our society is that most Americans value only American lives. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them.

I seriously cannot agree more on this one. what you stated is a hard FACT ! . its just too deep in the culture and clearly exposes the value we put on non-white lives.
i guess most americans view them like animals and the only thing that matters is strategic interest.
Just watch TV and general discussion about the iraq war .
I have watched 100s of them in TV and radio.
All the talk is only about how many dollars we lost and the 1/10000 ratio american lives that were lost and zero ..zilch ..nada ...talk about thousands of innocent lives of iraqi people !
an iraqi parent or kid is no different than any other american parent or kid.
The fact that you could just go kill thousands of people as a "preemptive" measure shows the callousness and disregard for non-white lives .

imagine china bombs the whole city of sanfrancisco because their internal reports showed that we might be planning on nuking them. after that imagine, the only talk in china is on how much money they unnecessarily lost on the bombs
then ..would you view them as humans with empathy towards other humans or would you view them as monsters ?

when was the last time you actually heard about the total count of iraqi people who died due to bush war on cnn/fox/cnbc..etc? these are channels which probably will spend 2 hours with talking heads on the war but not one mention of the count.

same with all other american wars .

and people wonder why all other countries hate us.

from wiki:
" A large-scale survey of Iraqi households by UNICEF, published in 2012, estimated that between 800,000 and a million Iraqi children under 18 – or about five percent of Iraqi children – have lost one or both of their parents"

61   BlueSardine   2014 Jun 26, 10:56pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Blame it on Germany and Japan.
They taught us a lot of bad things, starting world wars and dragging us into it all.
The result of that is the industrial military complex you see today.
Now, nobody fucks with us. We learned our lesson. The world is full of savage animals who would enslave or behead you if given the chance.
You take the high ground because you have not experienced the nazi foot on your throat, nor the heat of the human ovens. You have reaped the protected and rights filled life other people in oppressive nations can only dream about. You are soft and naive about what lies beyond your borders.

Your statement below demonstrates ignorance of the ways of the world.
You want callousness and disregard for any human life? Go after Burger King and McDonalds and the shit they serve that will eventually kill you.

jkaldi1 says

The fact that you could just go kill thousands of people as a "preemptive" measure shows the callousness and disregard for non-white lives .

62   Blurtman   2014 Jun 26, 11:41pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

imagine china bombs the whole city of sanfrancisco because their internal reports showed that we might be planning on nuking them. after that imagine, the only talk in china is on how much money they unnecessarily lost on the bombs

then ..would you view them as humans with empathy towards other humans or would you view them as monsters ?

Every American knows there were no WMD's in Iraq, and that we invaded a country under false pretexts. Sure, the US media was complicit in hiding the grim realities of dead civilians. Sure, the media implied that the bombs were so smart that they only killed the bad guys when they exploded, and not the nearby innocents. And yes, many Americans believed that Iraq had something to do with 9-11 at the time of the invasion. But most Americans, especially now that a destabilized Iraq is coming apart which IS being covered by the US media, know that the war was a huge mistake, although as you point out, they don't think the war was a mistake because the USA killed so many Iraqi people, and made a living hell for the rest.

So are Americans basically evil? Are they uncaring pigs who merely want to consume? Are they ignorant xenophobes?

One thing is for certain - all Americans have blood on their hands.

63   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 3:28am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Blurtman says

But most Americans, especially now that a destabilized Iraq is coming apart which IS being covered by the US media, know that the war was a huge mistake, although as you point out, they don't think the war was a mistake because the USA killed so many Iraqi people, and made a living hell for the rest.

and people wonder how Germans could stand still and witness one of the biggest horrors of this century ( Holocaust). Its this lack of human connection to another human separated by artificial identification ( tribe,race, country..etc). The day people "genuinely feel" that all human are same , we will never have genocides and mass killings.

the more you lack the connection , the more dangerous it is ! I certainly feel that most americans lack that connection with rest of the world.

You can go for wars and kill thousands if needed to protect yourself but not to acknowledge
and feel that other people are humans like you is very disturbing.

64   Strategist   2014 Jun 27, 3:44am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

and people wonder how Germans could stand still and witness one of the biggest horrors of this century ( Holocaust). Its this lack of human connection to another human separated by artificial identification ( tribe,race, country..etc). The day people "genuinely feel" that all human are same , we will never have genocides and mass killings.

the more you lack the connection , the more dangerous it is ! I certainly feel that most americans lack that connection with rest of the world.

And yet you would not support helping people facing genocide.

65   Strategist   2014 Jun 27, 3:46am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

You can go for wars and kill thousands if needed to protect yourself but not to acknowledge

and feel that other people are humans like you is very disturbing.

Please read previous post.

66   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 3:46am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

jkaldi1 says

and people wonder how Germans could stand still and witness one of the biggest horrors of this century ( Holocaust). Its this lack of human connection to another human separated by artificial identification ( tribe,race, country..etc). The day people "genuinely feel" that all human are same , we will never have genocides and mass killings.

the more you lack the connection , the more dangerous it is ! I certainly feel that most americans lack that connection with rest of the world.

And yet you would not support helping people facing genocide.

are you going to kill half a million people for that ?
If you are so concerned about genocide , go to africa which needs the help most.

do you really want me to believe , a country which values money lost on war more than half a million people killed during war so much so that its not ever a discussion point, cares about some people who are getting suppressed in another country .stop the hypocrisy already !

and this lack of discussion is after the fact that we know the war was a mistake !

common we all know how much people here connect to these african/asian/middle eastern people.

67   Strategist   2014 Jun 27, 3:52am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

Strategist says

jkaldi1 says

and people wonder how Germans could stand still and witness one of the biggest horrors of this century ( Holocaust). Its this lack of human connection to another human separated by artificial identification ( tribe,race, country..etc). The day people "genuinely feel" that all human are same , we will never have genocides and mass killings.

the more you lack the connection , the more dangerous it is ! I certainly feel that most americans lack that connection with rest of the world.

And yet you would not support helping people facing genocide.

are you going to kill half a million people for that ?

If you are so concerned about genocide , go to africa which needs the help most.

Are you willing to let a half million just get slaughtered?
We took out Kaddafi, did half a million die because of us or did we end up helping millions.
I suggested helping the Africans too, who are getting slaughtered and raped, no one cared. Just received BS.
You talk a lot about how we don't care for other humans, while at the same time you want us to just watch the genocide. Mother of all hypocrisy.

68   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 3:59am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

Are you willing to let a half million just get slaughtered?

We took out Kaddafi, did half a million die because of us or did we end up helping millions.

I suggested helping the Africans too, who are getting slaughtered and raped, no one cared. Just received BS.

You talk a lot about how we don't care for other humans, while at the same time you want us to just watch the genocide. Mother of all hypocrisy.

Then show me one evidence where we have discussed the loss of so many civilian lives in iraq due to the war. give me a pointer to any TV debate or comment from political figure, comments from national news reporters ..etc
For all these years, whenever the iraq war comes up, the so called "concerned" people are only concerned about the dollars we spent and the soldiers we lost!!! I watched presidential debates and even there you could see the same disgusting thing. it just reflects the reality that deep down no body cares about human lives in these countries and i am sure this attitude carries over in to the decision making process. I don't think human lives ( of these countries) is ever a part of the equation when the war decision is made. it only about our strategic interests!

The same way Hitler looked at his peoples strategic interest.

the day we add the pain and suffering of other people in to the equation along with our own strategic interests, we will be fighting more just and balanced wars.

this is especially needed when you have more power than others.

69   Dan8267   2014 Jun 27, 5:00am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

Innocent people are always the victims of any conflict. We do our best to avoid the deaths of innocent people, while terrorists do their best to kill innocent people.

No, the United States military does not do its best to avoid the deaths of innocent people. That's the whole point.

The Collateral Damage video proves that. Also there was another video in which soldiers were targeting a building while an innocent bystander was walking past the building. The soldiers could have easily waited 20 seconds for the bystander to be out of harms way, but they did not even give half a shit about his life and fired while he was in front of the building, killing him.

That's not avoiding innocent deaths.

And by your definition, the U.S. military is the largest terrorist organization that ever existed. The U.S. has deliberately attacked, even nuked major cities, in order to inflict terror on civilian populations by killing innocent people.

So no, you don't get to whitewash history.

If you want America to have the reputation of good guys, then America has to start acting like the good guys instead of acting like an imperial thug.

Strategist says

By your logic all wars are murder, which is an entirely different philosophical argument.

Of course all wars involve murder. That is why war is evil. At best, a war is the path of least evil because prior opportunities to solve conflicts peacefully had been wasted. But that does not make war any less evil.

An ethical society at least tries to minimize the amount of evil it does in war by not targeting civilians and not treating civilian casualties as unimportant. How a war is wage says a lot about the morality of the people in a society. It also determines how that society goes down in history. Long after these wars are done, America's reputation will remain tarnished.

Strategist says

OK, how would you go after terrorists?

Like I said, I'd use the most effective weapon against Islamic terrorism: education. There is nothing that scares the shit out of Al Qaeda and reduces their power more than girls and women gaining an education and financial and social independence. There is nothing that tears down the power of religion, which is at the heart of all conflict in the Middle East, as much as a scientifically literate population.

Use the military to safeguard schools, hospitals, and communities rather than indiscriminately bombing them. Every school that gets bomb is setback.

And we should be building up the infrastructure of these third world nations rather than tearing it down. Not only would it be cheaper, but the economic returns would alleviate the abject poverty that makes militant organizations appealing to the masses.

And I would capture rather than kill terrorists. We have plenty of practice capturing and imprisoning our home population. I would capture the terrorist and hold an open and just trial in the area where the crime was committed. Only pussies kill terrorists instead of bringing them to justice in an open court. Every time a terrorist dies without trial is a failure of our society. Every time a court tries a terrorist, we win regardless of the verdict. We uphold our values and demonstrate our courage and conviction.

Strategist says

You have no problem claiming Americans are murderers. Kind of hypocritical isn't it.

No because I have no problem claiming that terrorists are murderers either.

Where you and I disagree is that you don't give two shits about the lives of the innocent persons in the Middle East, whereas I value the lives of all human beings the same regardless of what country they were born in. Quite frankly your position is bigoted.

I believe in rule of law, which says you capture and try criminals. In war, you kill the enemy if capture is not practical, but you don't kill innocents even if its just out of convenience rather than malice.

Strategist says

We want to dehumanize terrorists, we want to kill them even more. Killing them is what saves innocent lives.

It is wrong to dehumanize any person. Doing so makes you no better than a Nazi.

Furthermore, the fact that your goal is to kill terrorist not only makes you a scumbag, but it also is why people like you are ineffective at stopping terrorism. Killing a terrorist only creates four more. Every member of his family and every friend he ever had now has motivation to become a terrorist. If some foreign government killed you children, brother, sister, or parent, you'd spend the rest of your life seeking revenge on that government -- this is apparent from your writings. Well guess what, that's human nature and it applies everywhere in the world.

The way to stop terrorism is to stop people from becoming terrorists. The way to do that is to improve their lives, provide safety and the opportunity to live productive lives free from fear and oppression, and to educate them.

You are far more concerned with killing terrorists than stopping terrorism. You seek revenge, not an end to terrorism. Revenge only increases terrorism. Entire civilizations end up playing a morbid game of tit-for-tat. One only has to look at the Middle East to see that.

Civilized persons seek to end tit-for-tat with rule of law. We don't tolerate the Hatfields and McCoys going after each other outside the rule of law. Hell, the ancient Greeks figured out this solution over two millennia ago, which you would have known if you were even slightly educated. The Oresteia trilogy, consisting of Agamemnon, the Libation Bearers, and the Eumenides demonstrates Greece's evolution from a society based on barbaric eye-for-an-eye personal vendettas to rule of law where harmed individuals get justice through trials not vengeance. You are what the ancient Greeks would call a barbarian.

Most of all, we should not tolerate the dehumanization of anyone. For if we do, eventually we or our descendants will be the ones dehumanized. The only way to protect your rights, your freedoms, and your safety is to protect everyone else's.

Strategist says

You don't want to label terrorists who blow up children, but have no problem calling Americans who support killing terrorists, as being terrorists. Does not sound rational to me.

I point out the hypocrisy of our politicians calling enemy combatants terrorists when we do the exact same thing they do: killing civilians, torturing, bombing babies.

This stance does not conflict with the position that labels are ultimately evil intended to dehumanize and neither necessary nor productive for rule of law. In a just legal system, you have specific charges that are levied against a person and evidence presented to support those charges.

The real question is why do you not believe in our Constitutional form of government and our judicial system? Sure, I would levy specific charges of corruption against our courts, but you are saying the very idea of a justice system is bad. That's pretty damn Unamerican.

Ironically, the kind of society you are proposing we adopt is exactly what they have in the Middle East. A few unquestioning dictators deciding who gets to live and decide and justifying themselves as being morally superior whereas their political opposition is subhuman infidels.

Strategist says

I just won the debate. I knew you had no chance at all. :)

Another fine example of an idiot on the Internet claiming a victory that exists solely in his mind.

70   Dan8267   2014 Jun 27, 5:08am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

Dan8267 says

. One of the largest problems with our society is that most Americans value only American lives. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them.

I seriously cannot agree more on this one. what you stated is a hard FACT ! . its just too deep in the culture and clearly exposes the value we put on non-white lives.

i guess most americans view them like animals and the only thing that matters is strategic interest.

Yes, it is unfortunately, even embarrassing, that we live in an essentially tribal society in the 21st century. We should have been better than that since the early 20th century.

The media clearly demonstrates that we value lives based on our race or our nationality every time it reports on
- 10 Americans dead on a plane ignoring all the non-American lives lost
- the number of U.S. soldiers killed in our wars ignoring all the civilians and military deaths on the other side
- the kidnapping of a blonde, blue-eye, Caucasian baby while ignoring a multitude of exactly the same crimes involving minority victims.
- school shootings in white communities while ignoring the multitude of shootings and stabbings in poor, minority schools.

Essentially, most Americans act like they are a member of a tribe and they are afraid all the other tribes are out to get them. The problem is that this Stone Age mentality doesn't work in the Nuclear Age when we have 7 billion people on the planet and everything is highly interconnected. There are no more tribes.

71   Dan8267   2014 Jun 27, 5:14am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

SoftShell says

Blame it on Germany and Japan.

The Nazis rose to power because the French politicians demanded vengeance on Germany rather than Wilson's 14 Points. The next generation of the French paid the price for that mistake.

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor per-emptively because
- America had a long history of genocide
- America was continuing its imperial march towards Japan
- America had a history of using warfare to economically exploit nations going back to the Open Door Policy

Both the rise of Nazism and the bombing of Pearl Harbor could have been prevented by the nations in power acting ethically.

SoftShell says

Now, nobody fucks with us.

Except the banks, and big oil, and the NAR, and the Federal Reserve which is largely owned by the Queen of England, and any big business that wants to hire an army of lobbyists.

Americans get fucked all the time.

72   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 5:14am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

most Americans act like they are a member of a tribe and they are afraid all the other tribes are out to get them.

This is the exact mentality which was responsible for holocaust and almost all other man made tragedies !

Even with the tribal mentality, Nobody is asking a tribe not to protect itself at any cost ...its the dehumanizing of the other tribe which is a problem. Most successful tribes have done pretty well protecting themselves while also treating other tribes as humans. We don't have to turn into savages.

73   BlueSardine   2014 Jun 27, 5:17am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

boy do you live a sheltered life...
Tell that to the:
Eastern Ukrainians
Crimeans
Georgians
Afghanistanis
Somalis
Nigerians
Pakistanians
Mexicans ( drug war )
Egyptians
Syrians
Iraqis
Central African Republicans
Sudanese..
Malians
Lebanon
Libyans
Yemans
North Caucasus
etc etc etc...

Dan8267 says

Essentially, most Americans act like they are a member of a tribe and they are afraid all the other tribes are out to get them. The problem is that this Stone Age mentality doesn't work in the Nuclear Age when we have 7 billion people on the planet and everything is highly interconnected. There are no more tribes

74   Dan8267   2014 Jun 27, 5:20am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

his is the exact mentality which was responsible for holocaust and almost all other man made tragedies !

Precisely. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Such people are called by many names: idiots, ignoramuses, conservatives.

75   Dan8267   2014 Jun 27, 5:23am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

SoftShell says

boy do you live a sheltered life...

You're assuming that I do not apply the same disdain to those societies. You are wrong as usual. I do.

However, America is the society in which I live. It is also the most technologically advanced and the one with the largest military. As such, I hold America to higher standards than I do Somalia, and you should too.

76   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 5:25am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

SoftShell says

Eastern Ukrainians

somalia

These countries have issues not because they didn't kill thousands of people from other countries "preemptively". These countries have issues because they don't have a proper political and structural framework to allow for a win-win situation for all ( instead of a zero sum game where each ones kills and grabs from others). lack of proper awareness and backwardness is the issue.

Do you want me to look at those losers and start behaving like them.

BTW, 2.3 billion+ people ( India and china) are living fine minding their own business without going out and killing thousands of people from other countries.

they are busy fixing their economic and social problems.

In the end, who do you think will win ?
A bully nation which has turned into a savage trying to protect itself disproportional to the threat with zero regard to human lives or some other country which is realistic about threats, maintains credible deterrence and is busy building the nation.

The day i hear on CNN a discussion on a US war with even 1 minute spent on the consequences on human lives the war could have, i will start having hope that this country is becoming more civilized.

77   dublin hillz   2014 Jun 27, 5:39am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Regarding courage of a suicide bomber issue - it appears that they are courageous because we are judging them from our perspective. However, many of them believe that their death will be painless and they will be sitting by allah in a matter of a few seconds of committing the act. Additionally, this issue is exacerbated by polygamy in society where the most powerful men hog multiple women which results in lack of partners and sexual frustration to the dudes of lesser means. It is those guys who are likely to find suicide attacks liberating as they will be "rewarded" by 72 virgins. Freud was right when he postulated that sex and aggression are linked and are 2 most important factors driving human behavior.

78   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 5:44am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

dublin hillz says

Freud was right when he postulated that sex and aggression are linked and are 2 most important factors driving human behavior

What do you think is the reason for our aggression then ?

BTW, suicide bombers are not courageous they are just savages just like us. in other words uncivilized and misguided with little regard to human life.

79   dublin hillz   2014 Jun 27, 5:48am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

What do you think is the reason for our aggression then ?

The most pure form of aggression manifests itself in murder and pillaging. In our society, we have sublimated the instinct in the form of competition for jobs and hence resources which lead to purchases of real estate, material goods and experiences. However, sublimation is never as good as the pure form of the instinct and as such pure forms will prevail from time to time.

80   jkaldi1   2014 Jun 27, 5:54am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

dublin hillz says

The most pure form of aggression manifests itself in murder and pillaging. In our society, we have sublimated the instinct in the form of competition for jobs and hence resources which lead to purchases of real estate, material goods and experiences. However, sublimation is never as good as the pure form of the instinct and as such pure forms will prevail from time to time.

Thats the difference of humans from animals. Animal doesn't have any control over its surroundings. it has to kill other animals for the same resources. We humans started like them and then figured out that we can actually change the environment and increase resources without killing each other. i guess i was misguided to believe that USA is part of the evolution from animals to savages to civilized world. I didn't know we are stuck in between.

81   Quigley   2014 Jun 27, 5:59am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

@thunderlips
If you read, and I suspect you do, check out Daniel Suarez. The guy writes the most informative and shocking thrillers I've ever read. Like Michael Crichton on steroids. "Daemon," "Freedom(TM)," and "Kill Decision" all deal with drones, automation, democracy or lack of it, and the military. Really eye opening stuff!

82   dublin hillz   2014 Jun 27, 8:36am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

jkaldi1 says

i guess i was misguided to believe that USA is part of the evolution from
animals to savages to civilized world. I didn't know we are stuck in between.

Generally the more society sublimates these instincts the safer it becomes overall and the more civilization progresses. Sure, there are imperfections but overall united states and western europe have succeded at sublimation vs many other regions of the world and while many citizens still fall short, the overall level of relative success should not be overlooked or shortchanged.

83   Strategist   2014 Jun 27, 12:25pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Dan8267 says

Ironically, the kind of society you are proposing we adopt is exactly what they have in the Middle East. A few unquestioning dictators deciding who gets to live and decide and justifying themselves as being morally superior whereas their political opposition is subhuman infidels.

Oh boy, I had high hopes of convincing you. :(
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. :( :( :(
Citizen of the world - Mark the Strategist

« First     « Previous     Comments 44-83 of 83     Last »

users   about   suggestions   contact  
topics   random post   best comments   comment jail  
10 reasons it's a terrible time to buy  
8 groups who lie about the housing market  
37 bogus arguments about housing  
get a free bumper sticker:

top   bottom   home