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President Mike Pence

By Blurtman   Feb 14, 7:48pm   1 link   2,795 views   53 comments   watch (1)   quote      

BREAKING: Phone records and intercepted calls show 'Trump aides and campaign staff repeatedly contacted Russian intelligence officers in the year before the election'

The New York Times released the explosive new reports late on Tuesday night

It claims Donald Trump's campaign team and other associates had 'repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election'

US officials were reportedly concerned talks took place as Trump praised Putin

There is no evidence there was cooperation to impact the election, report states

Officials said Trump and President Obama were both briefed on the contact

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4225942/Report-claims-Trump-s-team-spoke-Russian-intelligence.html#ixzz4YipFYkIH

#CommieTrump

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14   landtof   Feb 14, 9:48pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

Marked as ad hominem, but I put it back. Borderline case. Not a direct insult, like "you have a thick skull".

you gotta be all or nothing. the second sentence was not related to the first. the point was made, then an insult was offered.

15   landtof   Feb 14, 9:49pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

ironmansragingboner says

Jesus Fucking Christ, you better quit your day job in order to start baby sitting a bunch of keyboard consequences

FYI - iwog was among the few members who lobbied for this ability.

16   iwog   Feb 14, 9:52pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

When does reality start to invade the thick skulls of Trump voters?

Is not directed at an individual. It is not ad hominem.

In fact strictly speaking, nothing is ad hominem unless it is being used to win the argument in some way. For example: "You're wrong about X because you have a thick skull"

17   landtof   Feb 14, 9:52pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

T L Lipsovich says

overwhelmingly ad hom

that type of occurrence would obviate the need.

18   iwog   Feb 14, 9:54pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

T L Lipsovich says

Into a Police State.

How in the hell can you call Putin a hero and the NSA an evil police state for doing exactly the same act?

Break this down into some coherent ethical rule. I'd like to see if you can accomplish it.

19   Blurtman   Feb 14, 10:03pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

We can presumably take steps to control Putin. Who contains the NSA?

20   Rew   Feb 14, 10:11pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Blurtman says

We can presumably take steps to control Putin.

Let's see, massive political will in Ukraine, a population that hates the US, and gladly flexing military muscle/arms dealing in all sorts of opposition to us. Also, a very despicably clever leader, ex-CIA operative, and someone who can actually tell you not only what the US Nuclear Triad is, but can probably name the current classes of US boomer subs.

that man, versus ... Trump.

Hahahahaha. Yeah. A popularity contest beauty queen, versus an old guard soviet shit kicker who orders hits on his own people to keep his population in line. No contest. I bet on Putin.

The administration Hillary would have had would have been lightyears ahead of this ineptitude. Thank god for Mattis.

21   HEY YOU   Feb 14, 10:12pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Anybody read "None Dare Call It Treason"?

22   BayArea   Feb 15, 7:01am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

A link to British tabloids is not the way to start a thread. Please don't repeat this mistake.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

23   Blurtman   Feb 15, 8:49am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

BayArea says

A link to British tabloids is not the way to start a thread. Please don't repeat this mistake.

Yes, it is probable that this is just re-hashed bullshit. If so, a blatant example of Judith Miller NYT fake news. But the tabloid has frequent Kardashian ass shots. What to do?

24   iwog   Feb 15, 8:53am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

How in the hell can you call Putin a hero and the NSA an evil police state for doing exactly the same act?

Break this down into some coherent ethical rule. I'd like to see if you can accomplish it.

Still waiting. About the only thing I can figure out is that you think someone with ill intent is a hero and an American who simply wants to prevent foreign control of our government is evil.

Basically we're back to Orwellian thought crimes and you people think you're entitled to pick the president.

25   Tenpoundbass   Feb 15, 8:54am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (3)   quote    

When Trump gives the order to get out there and bust some heads, it will be too late for CNN to report it.
If you fuckers think you can use malfeasance to oust Trump without him going down as Graciously as President Obama went out.
You fuckers are sorely mistaken.
Our riot will have the Army and Police on the protestors line.

Don't Tread on us fucksticks!

26   iwog   Feb 15, 9:09am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

landtof says

donald trump is going to be one of the finest presidents in US history, even notwithstanding these cunts.

You think throwing Flynn under the bus was somehow a creation of fake news or Trump persecution?

When does reality start to invade the thick skulls of Trump voters?

27   FortWayne   Feb 15, 9:10am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

liberals finally think they got something they can use to attack Trump so that he could get less done for America. Unpatriotic bastards they are, they don't want America to be great.

28   iwog   Feb 15, 9:12am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

FortWayne says

liberals finally think they got something they can use to attack Trump so that he could get less done for America. Unpatriotic bastards they are, they don't want America to be great.

Didn't Republicans say they wanted Obama to fail from the moment he was elected?

I think they did.......

29   YesYNot   Feb 15, 3:43pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Didn't Republicans say they wanted Obama to fail from the moment he was elected?

Indeed, senator turtle said exactly that. Then they proceeded to do everything in their power to make him fail. Trump is failing all by himself.

30   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 15, 6:31pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

How in the hell can you call Putin a hero and the NSA an evil police state for doing exactly the same act?

I called Putin a hero - unqualified?

IF it was the NSA, and not former Obama officials mad at Flynn and determined to pee in his soup as 'revenge', how do you control the NSA once they have all the shit on everybody, all their calls, emails, texts, credit card charges, etc. and have shown their willingness to defame the President and his cabinet? That's how Hoover got away with so much shit and couldn't be removed except for Death.

An activist group whose leader is encircled inside the Embassy of Ecuador who depends on leaks from whistleblowers, is a whole different kettle of fish from Deep State Bureaucrats looking to defend their Pet Policies by any means necessary, including by leaking information on phone calls made by citizens. Or simply to get revenge on a "Traitor" like Flynn who insisted on calling Islam a dangerous ideology and went on television giving his version of the MENA strategy and criticizing his former boss Obama's handling of it.

Now I know why morale was in the toilet in the USAF in Turkey around 2014.

IF it was the NSA. It was probably ex-Obama Officials who were informed by intel agencies between Dec. 29th and Election Day as part of their regular briefings.

Also, incoming elected administrations talking to foreign leaders is normal and boring. What did Flynn do that was so horrible? He asked Russia not to react on the Sanctions. In other words, something undeniably good for the USA - unless you are such a Russophobic extremists you want the counter-sanctions to wave as a bloody shirt of martyrdom against your domestic foes.

31   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 15, 6:39pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Still waiting. About the only thing I can figure out is that you think someone with ill intent is a hero and an American who simply wants to prevent foreign control of our government is evil.

Again, Wikileaks dumps the whole thing - a ton of memos, unfiltered email contents (including Spam emails), a huge doc dump.

Insider Leakers smear with selective leaks designed to put their target in the worst light possible, with any context held back.

Wikileaks is an activist group led by a guy kept in a tiny room in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London who wants more transparency in government.

Inside Leakers go home to their $800,000 Georgetown Townhome or stop at Fiore Mare for dinner, they are people who leverage access to information for personal and political profit.

Good attempt at trying to control the framing, though.

32   iwog   Feb 15, 7:10pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Do you know what a thought crime is?

It's a concept written about in 1984 and widely considered to be unspeakably evil. It means you don't care about the crime, you only care about what's in a person's head.

What you are detailing is thought crime while you're trying to bury the actual act as inconsequential. The two actions were identical. One was unauthorized hacking of Democrats and one was (supposedly) unauthorized hacking of Republicans. One was a foreign government attempting to attain some level of control over our election and one was our domestic government trying to uncover foreign corruption.

What you're doing enables fascists. It gives them power. You are throwing out the rule of law in favor of a moral authority which you are not entitled to.

33   Rew   Feb 15, 11:05pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

BTW did you read the OP? It's not just Flynn anymore. It's others and very possibly Trump himself. Down the rabbit hole we go.

Some in intelligence community now saying that US allies are brining us interesting revelations on Trump and his cabinet members too. I'll bet that's the UK. The book that will be written on this one day is going to be amazing.

(Russia and China high-fiving in the corner, rushing to get crap done, while the West feuds.)

34   PCGyver   Feb 16, 7:31am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

You're fired!

35   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 16, 9:40am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

It's a concept written about in 1984 and widely considered to be unspeakably evil. It means you don't care about the crime, you only care about what's in a person's head.

Therefore Intent means nothing? In some places in the world, they don't draw a distinction between losing control of your car, and deliberately running down somebody on purpose.iwog says

What you are detailing is thought crime while you're trying to bury the actual act as inconsequential. The two actions were identical. One was unauthorized hacking of Democrats and one was (supposedly) unauthorized hacking of Republicans. One was a foreign government attempting to attain some level of control over our election and one was our domestic government trying to uncover foreign corruption.

What is the factual evidence (not conclusions based on a tendentious assembly of coulda, woulda, shoulda assembled by a DNC Contractor, Crowdstrike) it was a foreign government? Why hasn't the DNC turned over their servers to the FBI so they can bring in a huge range of professions and contractors to help identify the hack source?

Wikileaks has dumped tons of documents from Assad's Regime, the Syria Files, showing all the nasty shit he did to stay in power. Why would Russia want that out?

iwog says

What you're doing enables fascists. It gives them power. You are throwing out the rule of law in favor of a moral authority which you are not entitled to.

What you're doing is enabling a police state, by failing to draw a distinction between political assassination and sabotage by unelected bureaucrats, and political activists engaging in attempts to shed sunlight and bring transparency.

36   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 16, 9:44am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Right here in the US we look at intent. If you shoot a burglar, it's unlikely you'll be charged, much less go to trial. If you shoot somebody because you don't like their opinions, after planning the best way to do it, you probably will.

BTW, it's a testament to the power of lockstep Billionaire Concentrated Media and their framing of stories that people think the FBI itself concluded the DNC was hacked by Russia. They only read over the Crowdstrike Report and were never allowed by the DNC to look at the Server

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/fbi-russia-hacking-dnc-crowdstrike/
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/312767-fbi-never-examined-hacked-dnc-servers-report
https://www.wired.com/2017/01/fbi-says-democratic-party-wouldnt-let-agents-see-hacked-email-servers/

Just to be clear: The DNC let their Contractor Crowdstrike examine the servers, but not the FBI who is the official domestic counter-intelligence body of the US Government.

They're more worried about leaks in the FBI, than identifying who hacked them, which tells you where their priorities lie.

37   joeyjojojunior   Feb 16, 9:45am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

What evidence do you have as to intent?

38   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 16, 9:51am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

What evidence do you have as to intent?

The burden of proving the claim is on the claimant.

Why the claimant won't turn their servers over to the official US authorities most interested in defending US organizations against electronic infiltration and hacking is purely political.

39   joeyjojojunior   Feb 16, 10:04am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

"The burden of proving the claim is on the claimant. Why the claimant won't turn their servers over to the official US authorities most interested in defending US organizations against electronic infiltration and hacking is purely political."

The intent of the leaker(s) on Flynn

40   iwog   Feb 16, 11:02am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Therefore Intent means nothing?

Straw man. Did you forget we aren't talking about a crime? Well in the case of Putin it was a crime but the NSA didn't commit a crime. The ethics of legality is certainly open to debate however there's no indication he broke the law. Furthermore I could easily argue that the gross incompetence of your candidate combined with open advocation of pursuing unconstitutional policies (banning all Muslims) during the election made it a concern of national security that Donald Trump be watched.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

In some places in the world, they don't draw a distinction between losing control of your car, and deliberately running down somebody on purpose

That's odd because in both cases the intent was to expose corruption. In the case of Clinton, it wasn't illegal corruption, it was simply an unpopular function within the party. In the case of Donald Trump however it might very well be treason.

41   iwog   Feb 16, 11:05am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

The burden of proving the claim is on the claimant.

LOL....you have got to be kidding.......since when have you adopted THIS position? Certainly not during the election.

Unbelievable.

42   Tim Aurora   Feb 16, 1:03pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

This is what Trump possibly did .

1. He had an understanding ( how much and how is yet to be determined but this is not speculation any more) with Putin, that in return of Putin helping Trump win the election, he will help (quid pro quo) Russia after the election .

2. So Putin went and hacked the DNC and RNC emails and only release DNC harmful emails ( already established)

3. Trump is trying to paint Putin in a favorable light and trying to get the sanctions reversed ( Obvious) . A quid pro quo.

So this is analogous to hiring a hit man , so in this analogy why is Trump not guilty of murder.

43   Blurtman   Feb 16, 1:19pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Tim Aurora says

He had an understanding

Prove it. Allegations are not proof.

44   Rew   Feb 16, 1:36pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

And then Tenpundbass came with the threats of violence again.

Hurry up and do it already. I welcome the shift away from Muslims and toward right-wing domestic terror threats. Let's jump start that. Yes please!

Edit: awww darn it. Think Ten' got flagged. Too many "fucksticks" used.

45   Patrick   Feb 16, 9:51pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

What do you think of just rejecting posts that are overwhelmingly ad hom.

Yes, still working this out. Needs to be pretty tolerant, just weeding out the clear personal attacks.

Also going to keep all those comments around so people can see them if they want.

46   bob2356   Feb 17, 1:00am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

What do you think of just rejecting posts that are overwhelmingly ad hom.

Yes, still working this out. Needs to be pretty tolerant, just weeding out the clear personal attacks.

Also going to keep all those comments around so people can see them if they want.

@patrick why don't you let the user's decide what they want to see rather than all this dicking around with comments. Put a field in the profile called suppress flagged comments or something. If someone doesn't want to see the flagged AH comments then dont' show them. People who don't care (I certainly don't care, bring it on) can see everything that is posted. New users and anyone not logged in would default to girlie girl status and would have to step up to the plate to opt into man up status. Current users would have everything (so everyone doesn't have to change their profile) and would opt out if they want to. Makes the whole thing more or less self moderating without someone being the comment police.

47   Rashomon   Feb 17, 1:03am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Is there a reason why the site opens at comments rather than active?

48   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 17, 3:35am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Rashomon says

Is there a reason why the site opens at comments rather than active?

This.

Also, Rob Reiner just fell in love with members of the Military-Industrial-Complex.

49   Patrick   Feb 17, 8:46am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bob2356 says

patrick why don't you let the user's decide what they want to see rather than all this dicking around with comments. Put a field in the profile called suppress flagged comments or something. If someone doesn't want to see the flagged AH comments then dont' show them. People who don't care (I certainly don't care, bring it on) can see everything that is posted. New users and anyone not logged in would default to girlie girl status and would have to step up to the plate to opt into man up status. Current users would have everything (so everyone doesn't have to change their profile) and would opt out if they want to. Makes the whole thing more or less self moderating without someone being the comment police.

Two reasons:

1. It would interrupt the flow of conversation to have some comments be invisible.
2. People are just going to flag each other's comments all the time if no one is moderating.

I'd much rather have a place for insults: the thunderdome threads. Why should it be so hard to attack points and not other users? I guess it is, but not sure why.

Going to make it very transparent, hopefully today, so there will be a list of all deleted comments and everyone can see what's in there if they want.

Maybe I could even put in "ad hominem comment banished to graveyard" and have a link to that in the thread. That would create a little cost to seeing the ad hom comment, which is prolly good.

50   Patrick   Feb 17, 8:49am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Rashomon says

Is there a reason why the site opens at comments rather than active?

Yes, it's to filter for quality on the home page.

If a thread gets a lot of comments, it's probably not utter crap.

But OTOH, those threads are rarer, making the site look less populated. So yesterday I started putting a list of all the recently active (5 mins) users in the header.

51   errc   Feb 17, 9:10am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I like the active users

Not sure i love how you formatted it in a big pile right at the top of the homepage, but I don't have a suggestion to better it

52   Patrick   Feb 17, 9:14am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

If it gets too big (a good problem to have!) then I'll just make "current users" a link.

53   Blurtman   Feb 17, 9:33am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Also, Rob Reiner just fell in love with members of the Military-Industrial-Complex.

That is a classic oxymoron, a la Bush, I had to destroy democracy to save democracy.

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